Outgoing AFN Chief Perry Bellegarde on reconciliation, and why he's still optimistic

Guest: Chief Perry Bellegarde

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But who's going to Tokyo?

Speaker 2: We're about to find out.

Unidentified: Fantastic stuff. She's putting the pressure on Richardson.

MARK KELLEY: Well, Sha'Carri Richardson was going to the Olympics in Tokyo to what would have been a very good shot, had a gold medal in the women's 100 metres. Now, one of America's most exciting track stars will be sitting on the sidelines because she tested positive for marijuana in 30 minutes. Are the Olympics out of step with their own athletes? Then.

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We turn to poetry at times for a birth and death, for marriage moments in our lives that are big moments of intense emotion. And this is certainly one of them.

MK: getting vaccinated has brought out some inner Walt Whitmans and Emily Dickinson's pandemic poetry. We'll read some reviews, some and maybe inspire you to write some. But first, he's been a leader in indigenous politics for decades, head of the Assembly of First Nations for almost seven years, looking at the past, present and future with Perry Bellegarde. I'm Mark Kelley, sitting in for Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

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MK: When Chief Perry Bellegarde was first elected to lead the Assembly of First Nations, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission had yet to issue its final report. The enquiry into missing and murdered indigenous women and girls was still a promise and not yet reality. Both reports brought ugly truth to the surface. Now Canada faces a reckoning over the discovery of unmarked graves on the grounds of former residential schools. Just as Perry Bell Gardens days daisies offend national chief are coming to an end. A new national chief will be elected this week. Chief Bellegarde joins me to reflect. Good morning.

CHIEF BELLEGARDE: Good morning.

MK: When you address the the United Nations years ago, you said language is an inherent human right. So I'm just wondering in that spirit, I wonder if you could begin with introducing yourself in your language and offering a land acknowledgement.

CHIEF BELLEGARDE: [Indiginous speech] So in Cree, what I said, Mark, was: I am from - I introduced myself, one of my Indian names, spirit names, King Thunderbird Child and I said I'm from Little Black Bear First Nation because they are much closer to school and get to where I grew up. And I acknowledge the Algonquins, the Anishinaabe peoples for the welcome here. And I also gave thanks to the Creator for this beautiful day in Creean. And our language is so important to our identity as nations and as tribes. And in Canada we have over 60 different nations or tribes that should be viewed as Canada's national treasures. And the residential school system tried to eradicate those national treasures. They tried to kill them. But ultimately we have to revitalise, revive and hear them every day. And so it's linked to the right to self-government, self-determination, as well; our own languages, our own lands, our own laws, our own people and our own identify all forms of government. So indeed, it really is fundamental to who we are. And it is an inherent right, our languages,

MK: as I mentioned in the outset, we find ourselves in a painful time right now. It's been a grim couple of weeks with the discovery of the unmarked graves and burial sites. Over the weekend, I was reading a report on the missing children in unmarked burials that was part of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, and that was back to 2015 when they were outlining the fact that there were these unmarked burial sites that would be found throughout Canada. That was 2015. Why is it taken so long for Canadians to wake up to this reality?

CHIEF BELLEGARDE: Well, 2015. You remember the Truth and Reconciliation Commission released their final report, and within their final report, they did identify missing children and deaths in unmarked graves at all the residential school sites. But they also said they didn't have enough resources to do the research properly. So this was identified as an issue back then in their final report. And we thank them and acknowledge them for their good work. We as people, as Canadians, as First Nations people have to get ready because that at every site there will be discoveries made. And it took a long time, I think. But I think the discourse and the dialogue is happening. But the catalyst is here now. And it started with those two hundred fifty young spirits, those young souls waking up everybody and saying, hey, we're here. We were people and we're not forgotten. We should not be forgotten. And they woke up everybody and everybody across Canada and indeed the world is embracing that. And I think we need to seise the moment to chart a better Canada and a better future together.

MK: But as part of the truth and reconciliation, we'll get to reconciliation in a moment. The first part is truth. You think that this is the hard truth, that non-indigenous Canadians, they needed to learn for themselves?

CHIEF BELLEGARDE: Oh, no question. People like when you start talking about this, there's always an ugly silence. You know, people can't- did this happen in Canada? Young children being taken from their families and they were starved? They were beaten for speaking their language? They were cut off from their communities? And then there is sexual abuse and physical abuse and mental abuse? The truth and I've said before, that the residential school system was a genocide of our people and we still feel the intergenerational trauma and effects of the residential schools and it's something that Canadians need to get their head around and we can't just say, oh, get over it. It was in the past, just get over it. It was a genocide. You can't get over that. We just need to learn. And that's the truth that this happened in Canada. And so it's a shared past. But again, I would say we need to really chart our shared future together.

MK: I saw a poll recently that said two thirds of Canadians know little or nothing about the history of residential schools. How must that change?

CHIEF BELLEGARDE: Oh you have to change education awareness leads to understanding these actions. So this should be taught. Residential schools, should be taught in the school systems right from kindergarten to grade 12 in every province. And as well, you should also teach about treaties and inherent rights and Aboriginal rights and title. We always hear about the Treaty of [unintelligible], the Treaty of Paris, but nobody knows about the treaty No, Four, or the Victorian treaties or the Treaty of Niagara, the [unintelligible] Treaty. That's how Canada was built. So the treaty making process with First Nations people that should be taught in all the school curriculums. You know, Mark, like the other thing that hurt First Nations people is the Indian Act. And we've had the Indian since 1876. And, you know, under that legislation, we weren't allowed to leave the reserves without a permit till 1951. We couldn't even vote in elections until 1961. And as well we didn't have access to a lawyer until 1951. It was illegal for a lawyer to provide legal advice to a First Nations person, and then it broke down our system of governance. It broke down, it outlawed the Sundance's and outlawed the potlatches. So between the residential schools and the and the Indian Act we see the intergenerational trauma between those two things. Not many Canadian people know and realise the huge impact it had on First Nations people, but Canada as a country,

MK: you know, I want to give you an example of that. Last week, The Current spoke with Vivian Ayoungman. She's a residential school survivor and she was forced to live at the Old Son residential school in Alberta for nine years. Now, that same building is the old son community college, and she's a teacher there.

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I do have a story about this room, I was seven years old and we were playing troll, we were jumping back and all the girls were in the game and my cousin was going to get tagged. And I said, [Indiginous speech] that means look out. All of a sudden, the whistle blower, we all stopped and the supervisor came right towards me, grabbed me, shook me because I spoke Blackfoot. So I got sent to the principal's office. I got strapped on the hands. And when I came back down, I was really crying and all the students were in a straight line. They couldn't play anymore. Group punishment. And the supervisor was telling everybody, this is what happens to you when you speak your language. I was teaching a class Blackfoot language class in here and I told the story to my students. And all of a sudden my students were cheering, clapping, and they said they didn't beat it out of you. They were so resilient. We're so thankful now. You're teaching it to us.

MK: What do you think of that story, Chief Bellegarde, about resilience and that old notion of resilience?

CHIEF BELLEGARDE: What a powerful statement and story. And I know Dr. Vivian Ayoungman, she's a powerful lady. And what a story of strength and resiliency to hang on to your language. And she survived that word, surviving. And they're not schools, residential schools, schools is not the right term for these places, their institutions and their institutions of genocide. And she survived that. And we need to hang on to those kind of stories because that provides us hope that we can hang on to our languages and our traditions and our customs and everything good about being a First Nations person, about being a Blackfoot person or a person or a Mi'kmaq or Dene or Haida are Anushka, like our languages are beautiful and good. And we need to hang on to those things. And that's just a story of hope. And thank goodness that we have those stories from Vivian provide hope to our children and grandchildren, those yet unborn. We've got to hang on to those things. That's very powerful.

MK: You know, we've come through this Canada Day weekend, and I know it was a difficult one for many years. For some people they didn't want to acknowledge this, that there was Canada Day. For others, they were lighting off fireworks. Do you do you feel that the conversation is changing with Canadians right now about the reality of our past?

CHIEF BELLEGARDE: Yeah, I do think it's changing. You know, I think there is a lot of people, Canadians that marched with us as well on Canada Day. We can't do this alone as First Nations people. We're all in this together as human beings. And whether we're fighting covid-19 pandemic or whether we're fighting systemic racism in the justice system or systemic racism, the health care system with what happened to education or deal with the high youth suicide rates or even deal with climate change, you know, in the fires in B.C., we're all in this together as human beings and we have to collectively work together and we need to implement all the 94 calls to action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. That was a road map to reconciliation in Canada. It was like a map to the mountain top. But we all have to do the climbing. And so that's what I see. And I'm really thankful that that dialogue and discourse is happening because that's how you create understanding.

MK: Well, part of that climbing, I guess, because as you mentioned, there's still unfinished business. And I know you're going to be going to the Vatican in December. I'm going to be having a meeting with Pope Francis. You're looking for an official apology. Why is this so important?

CHIEF BELLEGARDE: Well, we've been working on this meeting with Pope Francis for a number of years now. And and so we're working with the Canadian council, Catholic bishops and working with the Vatican. You know, it's a call to action number fifty eight that we're implementing, you know, for Pope Francis to make the apology here in Canada. And so we're laying the groundwork for that to happen because the survivors and their families need to hear that from the highest office in the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church is the only church to not to formally apologise.

MK: And what difference does that make?

CHIEF BELLEGARDE: It will make a huge difference for healing and closure. The Anglican Church, United Church, Presbyterian. I've all apologised, but today the Roman Catholic Church has not yet and they're complicit, along with the state in in the implementation of this policy of residential schools, which is genocide. And it really is, again, part of healing and reconciliation, part of, like you say, that truth telling.

MK: There's still some hard truths out there. And I want to turn to the role of Canada's political leaders. This is a Nunavut MP, Mumilaaq Qaqqaq, addressing the House of Commons recently.

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Every time I walk onto house of common grounds speak in these chambers, I'm reminded every step of the way, I don't belong here. When I walk through these doors. Not only am I reminded of the clear colonial house on fire I am willingly walking into, I am already in survival mode.

MK: Chief Bellegarde, that does not sound like reconciliation. That sounds like alienation. What do you hear?

CHIEF BELLEGARDE: No, I hear a lot of fear and apprehension and an institution that that doesn't accept indigenous people. That's what I hear from Mumilaaq. And, you know, that's her personal story. You can't deny her of that. I would just encourage and I've always said this is that we need to get First Nations people into all positions of power and authority, and we have to have thick skin to bring about change in policy and legislation to bring about change and institutions that are colonial, you know, to make sure that they're more accepting and inviting of and accepting of all the contributions that First Nations people have made to Canada, including sharing all the land and resources. People need to understand that. So I'm going to keep encouraging people, Inuit people make people, First Nations, people to get into positions of power and authority on the Supreme Court of Canada. Deputy minister positions become one of the three hundred thirty eight members of parliament, sit around cabinet table, infiltrate the liberals and the Conservatives and the NDP and the Greens while we still work on our own First Nations party and our own self determination, self governance as well. More CEOs, more boards of directors. We need to have that thick skin to persevere to bring about that change. And we need to get our people into positions of power and authority. That's what I think. And that's what I'm going to keep advocating for.

MK: Well, it's a great point, but it also sets up another voice I'd like you to hear. It's Riley Yesno, she's an indigenous writer and she's writing a book called The Reconciliation Generation, which she defines as the first generation that has not been through residential or Indian Day schools. Listen to what she told us.

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Indigenous youth have largely said that reconciliation to them is dead. It's not something they're interested in. And I don't think Canada yet has fully embraced how profound that is and how immense political impact that will have. What they're calling for instead, in my opinion, is perhaps you've heard of the slogan, you know, Land Back, which started as a very much an Internet meme, but is actually a really, really robust policy stance that talks about reparations, that talks about return of jurisdiction and autonomy. So it's a very materially focussed as opposed to, you know, symbolic thing that I think reconciliation has largely become in this country.

MK: Let's talk about land back for a second, because when we talk about reconciliation, that seems to be an understanding, but it's also rebuilding a relationship and every relationship needs to be put to a test. Will this idea of giving land back to to the First Nations, will that be a significant test for Canadians?

CHIEF BELLEGARDE: Well, first off, I wouldn't call giving land back. I would call it land restoration. And I wouldn't call it a land claim policy, whether it be comprehensive land claim or a specific land claim. This is land restoration. And First Nations, from a First Nations perspective, from my perspective, is we're sharing the land and resource wealth with everybody in Canada. And so for Canada to have some policies, for example, the comprehensive claims policy and specific claims policy, the additions to reserve policy and the inherent right to self government policy are all policies that are based on termination of rights, title and jurisdiction, not recognition of rights, title and jurisdiction. And that's got to change. So when Riley know the young people are saying, hey, let's raise its land back, that's the policy. Well, you need policy and legislative change. And right now, you know, look at this. In the last seven years, the pieces of legislation that have been changed, C5, C8, C15, C91, C92, C15 is very important. And people don't understand the importance and relevancy of C15. That's the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. And there has to be a comprehensive law and policy review and a national action plan done in partnership with first they should be within two years. And there's something very important that's relevant to this whole dialogue about land claims and policies that need to be changed. And it's referencing the doctrines of superiority, which I'm referring to our call, the doctrine of discovery and the doctrine of terra nullius. Those are fast being seen as illegal, racist doctrines because how else did the Crown come to Canada to get the land from indigenous peoples by planting a flag? Well, that's illegal and racist. And so First Nations people were here, this wasn't a vacant land, and we've been here for thousands and thousands of years, so all this law and policy review has to change. So there's lots of work to do. No question. And if people can get frustrated with reconciliation, but there are some movements and we have to seize the opportunity to bring the laws and policies of Canada in line with the UN declaration, in line with Section 35 and really in line with our treaty relationship with the Crown, which was all about peaceful coexistence and mutual respect and sharing, mutually benefiting from sharing the land and resource wealth because we didn't give up anything. So we've got lots of work to do.

MK: There's lots of work to do. And but I hear a certain effervescence in your voice even after seven years in office. Yes. You're acknowledging the things that that you've accomplished. But as I mentioned, we are we are still in this this painful and difficult time. And yet you seem optimistic about the future ahead. Why is that?

CHIEF BELLEGARDE: You always have to be optimistic and provide more hope and inspiration in any room than when you walked into it. I always try to leave any job that you're working in a better spot in a better place than when you were then when you walked into it. I'm not going anywhere either. I'm not making my spirit journey. We're always around to help. But again, I think Canadians are embracing the fact that we need to have transformative change. But we can only do that together. And in our world view, Mark, and this is how I always close off my dialogues, is that I just finished the Sundance Lodge out on the prairies and we pray and acknowledge everything that creator God has given us. And we acknowledge give thanks to Mother Earth and Father Sky and Grandmother Moon and Grandfather Sun, our relatives of star people. We acknowledge the ones that sit in the east, south, west and north. We acknowledge the male plants, the female plants and our relatives and brothers and sisters, the four legged ones. The ones that fly, the ones that swim. The ones that crawl. We're part of that. And then we acknowledge as well, the four grandmothers spirit said, look after the waters, rainwater, freshwater, saltwater, and then the power of women, when life comes, water breaks. So we're part of that family, that global family. And if we can embrace that worldview, that indigenous world view of First Nations worldview, we'll not only have a better country, we'll have a better world, because we're all connected. We're all related.

MK: Chief Bellegarde, let's hold on to that hope. Thank you so much.

CHIEF BELLEGARDE: Thanks, Mark. All the best.

MK: Perry Bellegarde is the outgoing national chief of the Assembly of First Nations. If you are a residential school survivor or have been affected by the residential school system and need help, the 24 hour Indian residential schools crisis line is available at 1 866 925 4419. The CBC News is next then.

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Oh, if that's the argument, we've got to ban sports psychologists. They help you with your performance. That's been coffee, too. Oh, that makes you kind of sharp and, you know, perk up. Oh, you know what? All right. Let's ban alcohol. How about that? It doesn't make sense.

MK: At the end of a young track star's Tokyo dreams, has the sports world asking, should marijuana still be a banned substance? I'm Mark Kelly. You're listening to The Current.

Advocates say marijuana shouldn’t be on banned list at Olympics

Guests: Ross Rebagliati, Paul Melia

MK: Hi, I'm Mark Kelley, and you're listening to The Current.

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MK: Still to come, pandemic poetry. As more vaccines make their way into arms across the country, we'll revisit the conversation Matt Galloway had with the founder of the global vaccine poem project and get a little philosophical about how those tiny little vials are making all the difference. But first, a soaring Olympic dream comes crashing back to Earth.

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So if some of your friends maybe at the office next week ask you, Who should we look for at the Olympics, for Team USA in the 100 metres, it's, the answer is simple. It's Sha'Carri Richardson. Is she a little bit of Flo Jo? Is she a little bit of Gail Devers? Maybe some people have drawn that comparison, but she is 100 percent Sha'Carri Richardson.

MK: well, she's been called the most exciting sprinter to lace up a track shoes since Usain Bolt. She booked her trip to Tokyo two weeks ago and U.S. Olympic trials by running a blisteringly fast ten point eight six second race. But Sha'Carri Richardson will not race the 100 metres in Japan's national stadium because she tested positive for marijuana. Under IOC rules, she has been suspended. That's led to a lot of debate about whether pot should be a banned substance for Olympic athletes. Joining me now is Ross Rebagliati. The Canadian snowboarder won Olympic gold at Nagano back in 1998 and experienced his own cannabis controversy that made headlines around the world. Good morning, Ross.

ROSS REBAGLIATI: Hi, Mark. How are you?

MK: I'm doing well. Great to hear your voice. What did you think, Ross, when you heard about this this this pot flap over Shikari Richardson and Arun?

ROSS REBAGLIATI: Oh, it's disappointing that, you know, we find ourselves at this crossroads again, and I'm not surprised, though. I mean, cannabis is becoming a much bigger part of our culture here in North America over the last, say, 25 years or so.

MK: But you say you're not surprised. We're not surprised.

ROSS REBAGLIATI: Well, just in that is a bigger part of our culture now than it ever used to be. You know, I think that, you know, Sha'Carri, you know, she's a top level athlete. You know, she knows her body. She knows, you know, all about health and fitness and what works for her not only on a physiological level, but on a psychological level. And that's why the story exists, is because she she made a healthy choice, to use cannabis in a very trying time of her life, when she found out her mother had passed away. And, it was a healthy choice in light of so many destructive choices that people sometimes make.

MK: Yeah, yeah. And just for our listeners who may not be familiar with that, she did take responsibility for her situation as she smoked weed in Oregon, where it's perfectly legal. As as you mentioned, Ross, says she learnt about the death of her biological mother. Do you think that these circumstances even have a bearing, that they have an impact, that this wasn't that she was out partying, that she was just dealing with her own grief? Do you think that's an important consideration?

ROSS REBAGLIATI: Is an absolutely important consideration. Athletes are under extreme pressure on a regular day to perform and, you know, to look forward to those big events, such as the Olympics that only come around once every four years. So that's a big date on the calendar that's four years away. And so the pressure builds up and as you get closer and closer, you know, sort of, you know, the anxiety and you know where you stand on the world ranking list and whatnot. So it's an untold amount of pressure that the average person cannot relate to.

MK: Her response when she was interviewed on the NBC Today show was, I am human. I want to talk about your experience, Ross, because for people who may remember, you won gold in Nagano back in 1998. You then tested positive for THC in the standard urine test that happens after medals are award awarded and then you were disqualified. Do you remember the moment you were told you'd be stripped of your medal?

ROSS REBAGLIATI: Yeah, yeah, it was it was pretty devastating and it was embarrassing, not only for for myself and for Canada and for the sport of snowboarding, but it was the first time snowboarding was at the Olympics. And we all wanted to prove ourselves and prove that the sport was legit. And up until then, we've had we did have controversies with skiers and other people who were snowboarding shouldn't be on the slopes. And so I went through the whole snowboard prohibition and then be allowed on to the slopes and then finally all the way to the Olympics. So it was a quick learning curve. But, yeah, there definitely was a lot of push back. And yeah, it was definitely it was dark days for me.

MK: But at the time, marijuana was not a banned substance on the list. And you appealed, you won and your medal would be restored. But it was after that fact, in fact, at the World Anti-Doping Agency would bring in the rule of putting marijuana on a banned substance. So this could almost be the party rule. The fact that you'd kind of established that. Did does it seem like ancient history when you remember that time?

ROSS REBAGLIATI: It really does. I mean, when you think about it, in 1998, you know, the Internet was it was barely on. No one had a cell phone, practically no one had emails. There was no social media whatsoever. And so it really it really was, you know, we were kind of in the dark ages and I was, and the athletes were isolated because of that fact. And we were used to that, it wasn't like it was it was new, but we just were. And so for me, when I went through this experience, like I didn't have the social media where I could see the millions of supporters and that whole thing, I just was in my head about it. So there was a lot of trepidation. And, yeah, I eventually found myself in the Japanese police station and yeah, things were kind of spiralling out of control.

MK: Yeah. And made headlines out of the world and around the world and made a star out of you in a in a way. But I want to play a clip for you from, you know, fellow Canadian Olympian, now retired Perdita Feliciana. She spoke to, as it happens, the CBC programme last week about this. And here's what she had to say.

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The truth of the matter is she broke a rule and it's really devastating, self-inflicted wound. She's 21 years old. She's so young and inexperienced in the sport. And I think she made a really poor choice. My stance is weed shouldn't be on the banned list. It's not a performance enhancer. And I think it really is more of an image thing. Well, a good, positive, wholesome athlete would never use marijuana.

MK: What do you think about that? Do you think that being a role model is part of your job and you shouldn't be smoking pot if you're an Olympic athlete?

ROSS REBAGLIATI: It's a good question, you know, I struggled with that as well, because that's what people were talking about, was should I be a role model or not? And I think she is a role model. I think it's time to let the cat out of the bag and that cannabis is a healthy substance. Nobody has ever died from it, literally one of the healthiest and safest substances on Earth. There's so much that you can do with with the fibres from the hemp plant, let alone the extracts from cannabis that are so beneficial for a multitude of very serious conditions, very effective medicine. And we have to stop looking at it from the perspective of a recreational perspective or the whole stigma, a stereotype that was created in the 70s with Cheech and Chong and the whole, like, party atmosphere. And that's really out of the window. And, you know, cannabis is like dog years. That one year is like seven years in reality. And so 25 years ago and now or 23 years ago and now know compared to now, we've made such a huge amount of progress with regards to cannabis research, the science behind it, the safety of it here in Canada, we've been legalised now for just under three years and I think the numbers speak for themselves and there has been very few cases of very few incident. All across the board with the legalisation of cannabis in Canada. And that was no surprise to cannabis advocates. So, yeah, we do find ourselves in a bit of a situation here. I think it's a corporately oriented culture where you're where we find ourselves with regards to the Olympics and the U.S. national track team, it's all very corporate and of course, that's like canabis biggest enemy and enemy is the corporate world.

MK: Well, let me ask you about but you mentioned stigma and stereotype. U.S. Congresswoman Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez said the decision to suspend Richardson was rooted in the systemic racism that she says motivates anti marijuana laws. As someone who's been in and you've been an advocate for legalising marijuana now involved in the cannabis industry. What's your perspective on that?

ROSS REBAGLIATI: Well, she's 100 percent correct that cannabis prohibition was designed to control freed black slaves. You know, that was the purpose of prohibition when it came about. Once that occurred, then we saw the corporate interests like Dupont, who wanted to corner the hemp rope and sale industry. We saw big pharma jump on board and to keep cannabis illegal before prohibition, cannabis extract was the base of almost every medicine that we used and they've been since Prohibition have been trying to figure out replacements for the natural remedies that cannabis has. And so there's so much that goes into what prohibition and why prohibition is still here, but it is rooted in racism.

MK: Do you think Sha'Carri Richardson's story could be a tipping point for change?

ROSS REBAGLIATI: It will be and it should be, this is an opportunity, unfortunately, Sha'Carri is going to feel the brunt of this. And it wasn't her intention and nor was it mine, to be honest. But I think in this day and age, you will find her way and she will be able to feel the love and support of the cannabis family, the worldwide cannabis family. And she will she will prevail. And, yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing her again.

MK: Mm hmm. Ross, it's good to talk to you. Thanks for your time today.

ROSS REBAGLIATI: Thanks, Mark.

MK: Appreciate it. Ross, rubbly. All of you won a gold medal at the 1998 Nagano Olympics. He's also the founder and CEO of Ros's Gold, a cannabis brand. He spoke to us from Aramoana, B.C. Alain Steve Comtois is the chair of the Department of Physical Activities at the University of Quebec in Montreal. He recently co-authored a review of the research into whether cannabis consumption actually affects athletic performance.

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There's a body of scientific literature and systematic reviews that show that cannabis is not a sport performance enhancing drug. If anything, it could be slightly detrimental to sports performance. The scientific articles showed that in terms of biological or physiological response, cannabis will increase heart rate decrease, blood pressure will have their heart working harder for the same level of physical activity in an individual that did not consume cannabis. So it only has detrimental effects on physical performance and based on that, cannot be considered a performance enhancing drug.

MK: Well, here in Canada, the agency that's responsible for enforcing rules on doping is the Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport. Joining me now, its CEO, Paul Melia. Good morning, Paul.

PAUL MELIA: Good morning, Mark.

MK: Yeah, I just want to pick up on on that comment that is detrimental to sport performance, at least that that the opinion we heard from this report. So explain to us then, Paul, the rationale behind the World Anti-Doping Agency's ban on cannabis and competition.

PAUL MELIA: Well, let me just pick up on your conversation with Ross back in 1998, you know, he was caught for having marijuana in his system during competition at those Olympics, and one of the things that was operating at that time was we didn't have a World Anti-Doping Code, we didn't have one uniform code and we didn't have one banned list of prohibited substances. You had different sports with different lists of different codes. And so the World Anti-Doping Agency, which was created in 1999 - 2000, The World Anti-Doping Code that followed in 2002 was an attempt to harmonise all of that one set of rules for all sports, all countries, all athletes. And one of the foundational pieces would be one banned list, one prohibited list. So the World Anti-Doping Agency created a list committee and these were medical scientists that would convene every year and review the banned list. And since 2002, that's been going on every year and each year, the council has advocated that marijuana be taken off that list. The list committee looks at three criteria. One, is it performance enhancing? Is it harmful to the athletes health? Is it contrary to the spirit of sport? And if any two of those criteria are met, then the list committee says that's a rationale for having it on the list. We've just heard from the scientists suggesting that the literature does not support performance enhancement for marijuana. And that's certainly been our position, that the scientific evidence does not support claims that marijuana is performance enhancing. So therefore, it really shouldn't be on the list. And if it's on the list because of concerns about code of conduct or image, well, that's the wrong reason for it being on the list. The list should be about substances that enhance performance and are harmful to the athletes health. We're more concerned about steroids, human growth hormone, EPO. These are these are the performance enhancing drugs that are harmful to an athlete and need to be out of sport. We don't want to waste valuable resources trying to police marijuana, which is what ends up happening. And it's really just a distraction from the real performance enhancers we should be concentrating on.

MK: How do you see this more as a law enforcement issue than a than a sports issue?

PAUL MELIA: Well, it's a law enforcement issue where marijuana might be illegal legal code of conduct issue. I guess if a sport organisation feels that somehow it's not consistent with the image they want to portray as a sport, but that's a code of conduct that they want to deal with, that they can. But that's not the purpose of the anti-doping rules.

MK: Unless some of your organisation stop screening student athletes for cannabis, why not lift this for all athletes?

PAUL MELIA: Well, it's not something that we have the authority to do what we were able to do for student athletes, and we did this with the full knowledge of the World Anti-Doping Agency, was we argued that, first of all, we were picking up a lot of marijuana use in our testing of student athletes, that we were spending a lot of resources doing the results management. And of course, there are negative consequences to to a student athlete getting a doping violation on their file and having that publicly noted. And and it was just consuming resources. And we felt we were probably picking up recreational marijuana use, not in competition. Intentional marijuana used it in his performance. So we suggested to the World Anti-Doping Agency that these were not national level or international level athletes competing on behalf of Canada. These were what we would say, subnational athletes. And so let's not screen for marijuana when we do our testing of those athletes. They agreed. And so when the lab does the analysis for our student athletes, they don't they don't provide results on marijuana. The other thing that did happen in twenty thirteen was the list committee and World Anti-Doping Agency to try to avoid picking up the recreational marijuana use. They did raise the reporting threshold for marijuana from 15 nanograms per millilitre to a 150 nanograms for millilitres. So when we do get a report on marijuana in urine, it would be for a level of 150 nanograms per millilitre above. But for student athletes use for skag, we don't even get that reported to us

MK: so that that level of one hundred and fifty I'm curious there to how much cannabis would an athlete have to use in order to get a result like that? And what's the science for setting that standard?

PAUL MELIA: Well, you know, it's a little difficult to answer that question because everyone's metabolism is going to be different depending on their size, their weight, depending on their use, if their chronic users. Marijuana is fat soluble and stored in the fat cells. It doesn't you don't excreted daily through your urine like you would have vitamin C, for example. So there are a lot of variables that that go into getting to that level. But certainly it's a very high level. And then the idea was, let's not pick up the recreational weekend use of marijuana for when an athlete a week later competes in competition and the blood picks up a trace amount, that's not the intention. So I think raising the threshold has helped. But I think the fundamental problem is it's on the banned list in the first place and it shouldn't be.

MK: Well, let's flip the script on the conversation here and look at this from a different perspective, as even Ross was mentioning. Instead of looking at is it should it be banned or is it a bad thing, is it a good thing? I mean, did you see some potential benefits here for athletes who may be dealing with injuries, who may be dealing with depression or psychological issues or pressure, whatever it may be? Can you see that?

PAUL MELIA: Well, I mean, you know, there are reports of those kinds of benefits, and I just think we should not confuse the use of marijuana for those purposes with having it on a banned list because it's performance enhancing when, as we've heard, the scientific evidence doesn't support that claim. I think that's the important distinction that needs to be made. I think that the particular case of Sha'Carri Richardson, you know, raises certain other concerns, like the mental health issues that marijuana may be used to help manage. And, you know, under the current situation, if an athlete wanted to use marijuana or medically justified reasons, they could apply for a therapeutic use exemption and with proper medical support to get that. That doesn't take into consideration, you know, extraordinary circumstance. As we saw in the case of Sha'Carri Richardson, when she hears about the death of a biological mother in a circumstance where she wasn't anticipating it, and then she turned to marijuana to cope with that and on the eve of competing in the US Olympic trials. So these are very unique circumstances. The World Anti-Doping Code and its application could be a very blunt instrument. And unfortunately, it's not able to, you know, take account of these extraordinary circumstances when in fact, it should be able to. But in this case, it wasn't, unfortunately, and as has been stated, the rules are the rules. And when they're applied, this is the unfortunate result.

MK: One of the guys who wrote those rules, the Canadian Dick Pound, recently spoke to The Washington Post. He said, quote, We should probably take it off the list entirely or say it. It's there, but the sanction would only be a warning. So what would it take to get this ban taken off, this ban lifted?

PAUL MELIA: Well, you have the list committee. That's where it starts. This committee made up of medical scientists, the World Anti-Doping Agency oversees and they meet annually. But then you have 200 countries that are signatories to the code and 70 international sport federations, signatories to the code. So they kind of all have to get on side.

MK: This is starting to sound complicated.

PAUL MELIA: Yeah, exactly. It gets a little political, unfortunately. And I think that there may be other countries who want marijuana on the bad list, not because it's performance enhancing, but because, you know, that's their hard stance on drug use. And they see it as a gateway to harder drugs and more harm, which again, is confusing the role of the anti-doping rules.

MK: But would it take then a majority or would a couple of these a handful of these countries then ultimately have the veto on this?

PAUL MELIA: Well, it takes the list committee, first of all, making the recommendation and then it would go to the World Anti-Doping Agency's executive committee and ultimately to their foundation board and their foundation board is made up of 50 percent of some of these countries and 50 percent of the Olympic movement. They ultimately would have to approve it.

MK: Well, we'll see if Sha'Carri Richardson will be the catalyst for that change. And for many who feel bring the Olympics, get them in step with the other athletes themselves. Paul, great to talk to you this morning. Thanks for your perspective, OK?

PAUL MELIA: You're welcome.

MK: Mark, thanks. Paul Melia is the CEO of the Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport. Coming up after your regional update.

SOUNDCLIP

save us, dear vaccine. Take us seriously. We had plans. We were going places. Give us our world again.

MK: In 90 seconds, we will be waxing poetic about the pandemic. I'm Mark Kelley in for Matt Galloway. And you're listening to The Current.

Forget the vaccine selfie: This project asks people to write poems to their COVID-19 shot

Guest: David Hassler

MK: I'm Mark Kelly and this is The Current. The drive to get Canada vaccinated is speeding up. Take a listen to the prime minister yesterday.

SOUNDCLIP

The faster people get vaccinated, the more people get to that full vaccination, the quicker the more we are going to be able to take further measures. Opening things up.

MK: Justin Trudeau promised a one dose summer, but it's starting to look more like a two dose season. More than 25 million Canadians have had the first shot of a covid-19 vaccine. More than 13 million are fully vaccinated thanks to two big deliveries from Pfizer and Moderna this week. We have enough doses to fully protect three quarters of our population over the age of 12. All of those shots are bringing hope and plenty of other emotions for anyone who has received at least one covid vaccine. It's an experience they likely won't soon forget. Social media awash with jubilant vaccine selfies. Some have even gone even further.

SOUNDCLIP

Dear vaccine, let us make music again, jazz it up with our friends on stage and off heal our hearts beat as one in a choir or a band, help us enjoy the shadow of breath once more. It's the movie ticket, the driver's licence. It's the later weekend curfew. It's the Sunday brunch, the flour bunch and the tickle scratch. Do your vaccine. We miss being able to touch, to hug, to hold the [unintelligible]. We love the child. We are proud of the stranger having a bad day.

MK: Those were Meg Freer of Kingston, Ontario, Becca Bouchard in Calgary and Miranda Mallinson in Vancouver with their ode to the covid vaccine. They're part of a project called the Global Vaccine Poem. It's designed to get people around the world to sonnettize their feelings about the shot. We first brought you this story in May, and given the Times now, we thought it was appropriate to replay it. Matt Galloway spoke to David Hassler, the director of the Wick Poetry Centre at Kent State University and one of the people behind the Global Vaccine poem project.

MG: David, good morning.

DAVID HASSLER: Good morning.

MG: Tell me how this works. I mean, we heard a couple of examples there, but how is this initiative working to get people to write a poem about getting a vaccine?

DH: Sure. We've built... my colleague, Tyler Meyer, the executive director at the University of Arizona Poetry Centre, reached out to me to collaborate and with a design firm each and every... we built this very accessible and fun interactive platform online, the Globalvaccinepoem.com, that invites people to follow one of four very simple prompts and then to read a model poem by Naomi Shihab Nye, the Young People's Poet Laureate appointed by the Poetry Foundation, and then to share their voice to an online gallery. We've received nearly fourteen hundred contributions on this gallery now from people from all over the world.

MG: And what specifically are people meant to write about?

DH: Well, this is a moment of intense emotion, shared profound global experience. And we turn to poetry at times for a birth, a death, for marriage, from first moments in our lives that are big moments of intense emotion. And this is certainly one of them. And so we're asking people to reflect on what the vaccine means to them. And in a way, it humanises this experience and creates a shared common ground for us all to connect with one another at a time when we've been so physically distant. This creates a kind of emotional connection with each other across language, across countries, across any kind of barrier. What's fascinating, when you read through the contributions on the gallery page is you find all these different angles and nuances and ways in which people are giving voice and expressing themselves, sometimes very tactically about the feeling of the shot in the arm. Other times they're releasing what might be really deep pent up emotion from this year of this pandemic.

MG: You mentioned the prompts. I mean, for people who might be coming into this thinking, well, I couldn't possibly write a poem, you have these four different prompts that will help them get started. What are the prompts?

DH: So the prompts are very simply beginning with the beautiful and fun phrase: Dear vaccine, which Naomi Shihab Nye began writing this model poem when I first reached out to her on a Zoom call before we were finished, she started writing lines and began with the phrase, Dear vaccine, save us, take us seriously. When you read through her model poem, each stanza, each of the four stanzas points to the prompt: Dear vaccine is the first prompt or the second stanza: we liked. You know, remembering nostalgically what we were able to do before the pandemic and now we have new appreciation for it. The third prompt begins: it's the, meaning come up with an image for that prick in the arm or what that vaccine means to you. And then finally, the fourth prompt is: vaccine please. What do you hope and wish to deliver us from this, The times that we've been suffering together. Partly what we're excited about is that it kind of democratises voice and poetry itself. It says, look, we all have that birthright to play with language and to be intentional about pausing, taking that time to give meaning in our expressions. And it's that simple.

MG: So this is what it sounds like when you take those prompts and put them together. This is Naomi Shihab Nye reading some of that model poem.

NAOMI SHIHAB NYE: Save us, dear vaccine, take us seriously. We had plans, we were going places, children in kindergarten, so many voices in chorus, give us our world again. Tiny, gleaming vials enter our cities and towns, shining your light, restore us to each other.

MG: David, have you had a number of people who have submitted poems who... I mean, you talked about, you know, the democratisation of language, people who have submitted poems who perhaps would not consider themselves writers of poetry?

DH: Oh, absolutely. Anecdotally I've talked to some people who have contributed, in fact, and have learnt that. So I love how Naomi calls this a positive contagion. [laughter] You know, that we like to think that perhaps the global vaccine poem project will spread more quickly than the variants of the virus itself. There's been so much talk about how people have turned to poetry websites like the Academy of American Poets Poetry Foundation, our own website, the University of Arizona Poetry Centre website. There's been a huge uptick in visitors looking for poems because they're looking for meaning. They're looking for a way to clarify the complexity of their emotions. Well, this is a way in which we don't just look outward for those poems we look inward. We all become published poets once we've participated on this website.

MG: What did you call it? A positive contagion. That positive contagion has infected some Canadians as well. One of them is Laura Wood, who lives in Owen Sound, Ontario.

MG: Laura, good morning to you.

LAURA WOOD: Good morning.

MG: Why did you decide that you wanted to write a poem for this global vaccine poem project?

LW: Well, first of all, thanks for having me on. I connected with the poet Naomi Shihab through some work we're doing together for a group called Owen Sound Waste Watchers for a local environmental group. And Naomi mentioned this project during our zoom call and said, we'd like some people from outside of the states and to pass it on, you know, that point of view. So I am not a poet. I was listening to what David said and I had my hand up. That's me. I come from a long line of letter writers though. So the dear vaccine made it very easy for me to write down my thoughts. I say,

MG: I was going to say, what kind of leap did you need to make from writing letters to writing poetry?

LW: I actually didn't make a leap. I just wrote a letter because I always have found the idea of writing a poem a little intimidating. So I kind of turned it on its ear and said, it's a letter. And then I found that I was putting nuances into the letter that I wouldn't put into a normal letter. So that was kind of fun.

MG: What did you find intimidating about writing poetry?

LW: I'm not quite sure. I think maybe it was the way it was taught in school and it was always a project that you needed to do. But actually working with Naomi, she makes it so easy to start writing. And when you start writing, it does sort of turn into poetry as opposed to sitting down and saying, today, I'm going to write a poem.

MG: Let's hear what you cooked up. This is your poem about the vaccine.

LW: Dear vaccine, today, your online portal surprised me with the message, book your appointment now, a wave of relief passed through my body, followed by this thought maybe I can hold my new grandbaby, Wyatt, again soon. I've been waiting around the edge of the vaccine dance floor for quite a while. Arm's aching for the chance to hold him. Thank you for asking me to dance.

MG: I love that idea of the vaccine dance floor. And I mean, I think everybody, you know, the high school dance where you stand around the edge and you wait for somebody to come and ask you to dance. It's such a familiar idea.

LW: Exactly. Exactly. And also hoping and a little bit about the way that we need to hear about how to book your vaccine. It's kind of confusing. And actually, because we were in Owen Sound and we were a little bit older, but not that old, we didn't expect that we would be getting a vaccine. We don't have as many cases as other parts of Canada. But one day I just thought, I'm going to go online and see what it's like for when I get the message that we can book. And it was actually on the exact day that they opened it up for folks 60 plus.

MG: You had no idea that it was that day?

LW: No idea.

MG: Fantastic

LW: So I went online on my iPad and it was like, oh, it's saying we have it available. So I took the iPad downstairs. I got my husband's health card number. We booked him. He's a little bit older than I am. And then and then I booked mine and we got it on the same day in a local town.

MG: What was the experience? I mean, again, I was saying earlier that people have been snapping vaccine selfies and people have had this range of emotions when they get a needle, which is not something normally that you would have. But given the year that we've had, there's a lot that's wrapped up in this. What was it like to get the shot?

LW: Well, it was interesting because right after that phone call or right after when we booked, I went for a walk and I just felt like I was on cloud nine and I felt like dancing. And that's where that poem came from, because a couple of days later I wrote it. So then close to a month later, when we went down to Hanover and got it, it was in a large auditorium. Lines went through quickly, very organised, didn't feel the shot at all, got in our car and drove away. And it was less of a euphoric feeling to get the shot than to actually know we were going to get the shock. And then the next day I was walking again. And I must admit, I felt differently. I felt. Quiet happiness, but then I was kind of sad because I thought, why do I have this shot when there are people living in other places that there's higher numbers and we have children? We have a daughter who lives with our grandson in downtown Toronto. We have a son who lives downtown Montreal. Why don't they have their shot? So Matt, I just wanted to let you know that this morning our daughter got online and she got her shot booked for May the 11th. So now I mean, yeah, I'm on cloud nine again.

MG: And are you thinking... that's fantastic. Are you also looking ahead, you mentioned Wyatt, your grandson. I mean, are you... is that the kind of thing that getting the shot allows you to think ahead to?

LW: Oh yeah, of course, every day, you know, because once you get the shot and they have the shot, we feel that we can safely see each other. They don't need to worry about us. We don't need to worry about them.

MG: David, what do you make of what Laura has done with the emotion that she is describing in the way that she has channelled it into a poem?

DH: Well, I love how she talks about the dance floor, because I think that that playful dancing is what we can do with language. And it sounds like she let that sort of crop up into her own pause and reflection, a play, a kind of heightened play with language. I love that, you know, we don't have to think of it... so many people are kind of recovering maybe from how poetry might have been taught in school. But at root, as Li-Young Lee, a Chinese American poet says it's simply the inner voice of one person speaking to the inner voice of another. When I read your poem on our gallery page, Laura, I loved it. And I thought of my, you know, shuffling my feet on the edge of my seventh grade sock hop waiting for Mrs. Wilson to come and teach me for the first time ever how to do that before I had the nerve to ask Annette Henry to dance with me. You know, it brought back a memory for me and it made sense. It gave some clarity to that feeling.

MG: How do we strip some of the intimidation away from this? I mean, to your point, maybe it's the way that it was taught. Maybe it's just that people think that poetry is something different than everything else that they read and they get freaked out by it. How do we go about removing that intimidation factor, David?

DH: Well, once you just allow yourself, give yourself permission to read Naomi's model poem, you feel the convivial voice of someone speaking to you in a way that makes sense but somehow feels different. And then if you allow yourself to click, share your voice on the website, you get a simple prompt instruction. And all of a sudden before you know it, you may be writing yourself.

MG: I mean, the other part of this to your point is, is that in this moment where things seem to be moving really quickly and really slowly, a lot of us are turning to poetry to slow ourselves down. I mean, I'm reading Derek Walcott and Mary Oliver and going back to some of the things that I love because it gives me kind of a grounding in a moment where it feels like everything is changing, kind of second by second. Are you really finding that people are turning to poetry in ways that perhaps they haven't before to explain the moment that we're in?

DH: I really have. And I think, as I've mentioned, just the analytics of people visiting poetry websites, huge increase. But I also, in talking with people, we have experienced this pause in our life and poetry gives shape to that pause with language. The word stanza from Italian means a small room, often a waiting room in a train station. So we like to think of poems as offering us that moment of pause or a little pocket of time to slow down and reflect on our lives through language. And it's nourishing to slow down. Mary Oliver talks about that all the time. Attention is a form of prayer. Attention is. Giving attention to something is a form of poetry.

MG: You mentioned that this is I mean, by the very nature of its title, a global project. And we know we've talked about it a lot on this program that we are not all in the same boat. We might be in the same seas. But when it comes to vaccinations, for example, some of us are far ahead. And Laura was hinting at this as well, than others. And some of us have the access to vaccines that people still around the world could only dream about. I'll ask you about it, Laura, in a moment. But, David, for you, I mean, how are you hoping that this will allow us to reflect on the global experience of the vaccination?

DH: Well, I think that's an incredibly important point. And the vaccine, the inequalities for access and the range of hesitancy around the globe and certainly within our countries. You know, I think people often describe poetry as a universal language beyond the mechanics of translation and grammar. It ultimately is giving voice to a shared deep human experience. If in any way this project can harness our own shared global experience to meet the science and public health policy, to address this global health pandemic, that would be very rewarding. A lot of what we're trying to do is to help with the messaging and the awareness of the science of the vaccine. And a lot of public policy needs to address the inequalities around the world.

MG: And, Laura, this is something that you've been thinking about as well. I mean, you mentioned just locally what's going on in terms of family. But this is a global issue for you as well.

LW: It is a global issue. I have family members in the States as well. I have family members, family members in India. And through this pandemic, I had one family member who was stuck in Iran for about 14 months. And so we would spend a lot of time on WhatsApp talking and I'd hear about what was happening with the pandemic in various places. I have another friend in Cornwall, England, and finally another one in Australia. For me, Iran and India were difficult, one because there was a family member, because the border was closed who was there and she was finally able to leave and return to India. And then, of course, the India situation has taken off. India is a heartbreak for me. I have visited small villages and I am so concerned for those people. There's just no way that that the vaccine can be distributed as quickly there as it can be here. So we are so lucky, but it is a global pandemic. And it is interesting. I'm starting to see some poems coming from India on this site. So that's interesting to hear voices on this site.

MG: David, just finally, when we get out of this, at some point in time, hopefully sooner rather than later, what do you want this project to do? I mean, where will it live? What will happen with these poems once the pandemic is done?

DH: Well, I think the work of healing continues long beyond the curing of the virus. And I imagine that we're building a living archive of very honest human responses around the world to this shared trauma. I would love to see, inviting poet laureates or artists and communities to build community poems and create visual installations, drawing from the voices on the gallery website, I envision an educational component all next year, fall and spring when kids are being vaccinated, and in particular, the middle school and high school age students, in my observation, are really suffering. And I think the mental health issues around dealing with this pandemic are going to be very real and more and more felt in our communities. I would love to see a way in which this project expands and creates lesson plans and ways for schools and kids to connect with each other digitally and to work through a lot of the stress and complexity of their feelings.

MG: Laura, just two final quick questions for you. One is now you're a published poet, so do you have more poetry waiting to be unleashed?

LW: Well, we do, actually, because Naomi also likes to pick up trash. And so our Owen Sound Waste Watchers does that, so actually, in July, this has inspired us. We're going to have an opportunity for the followers of our group to post letters and probably do... maybe David, do the same format where we give people prompts...

DH: Oh, absolutely.

LW: And they can put it in a comment section. So this has been quite inspiring. It just seems so freeing. So, yes, in July I'll be writing and I've actually already started writing a letter about one particular piece of trash.

MG: Excellent. There's also the matter of Wyatt. And do you have any sense... I mean you haven't actually seen him in person yet?

LW: I have seen him in person.

MG: Oh, you have.

LW: Very rarely because the lockdown's have been off and on and off and on, and we always quarantine and that sort of thing. But yes, now it's freeing. So we will be back in Toronto on a regular basis visiting him.

MG: That's worth writing, perhaps a poem about as well.

LW: It is for sure.

MG: We will turn this over to our listeners. I can imagine that there will be many, many submissions that come after this conversation. In the meantime, this is a really neat project and it's great to hear from you both. Thank you very much.

BOTH: Thank you. Bye bye.

MK: Laura Wood lives in Owen Sound, Ontario. She is a contributor to the Global Vaccine Poem. David Hassler is one of the project leaders, and director of the Wick Poetry Center at Kent State University. They were speaking with Matt Galloway. And since that conversation in May, the number of submissions has just kept going up. They have now received 19-hundred poems submitted from 118 different countries. And of course, you can submit your poems to globalvaccinepoem.com as well.

The Current Transcript for July 6, 2021

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

Outgoing AFN Chief Perry Bellegarde on reconciliation, and why he's still optimistic

Advocates say marijuana shouldn’t be on banned list at Olympics

Forget the vaccine selfie: This project asks people to write poems to their COVID-19 shot

Tueday July 6, 2021 Full Transcript

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