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The Current Transcript for June 1, 2017

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

That time I'm just [unintelligible] oh, maybe you have become Kamarpa then you will get more toys, friends to play. But later I found all that is not the case.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: He was seven years old the son of Tibetan nomads when he was proclaimed the 17th reincarnation of the Karmapa. You heard him there saying he thought he was going to get new toys, because he was seven, taking his place in the holy lineage of the Tibetan Buddhist faith. He is now 32. A man who likes hip hop, has the Dalai Lama as his mentor and sees new space for women in the religion. In an hour, Ogyen Trinley Dorje joins me to talk about how he navigates a modern world as a spiritual leader of an ancient religion. Also today, what began as an effort to document the heroic work of an Iraqi special forces unit freeing Mosul from the grip of ISIS, has turned into a visual collection of proof of torture and sadism under the director of the unit's commander.

SOUNDCLIP

He and his co-leader of the unit summarily executed a detainee who was trying to run away with his arms around behind his back. They fired nine shots in all, he falls after six shots and they finish him off with three more.

AMT: The Iraqi photographer is now out of the country and in hiding but he has shared his work and his impressions with the journalist you just heard Toronto Stars Mitch Potter. It's a disturbing story that raises uncomfortable questions about revenge justice and human rights. We've got that story in half an hour. But we begin with another story where the focus is around questions of justice.

SOUNDCLIP

We'll be blunt here. There's just been another drunk Indian rolling into the river. So who care? That is the feeling we get from the community in Thunder Bay.

AMT: The insistence from First Nations chiefs that the RCMP take over from local Thunder Bay police in investigating indigenous deaths. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

First Nations leaders call for RCMP investigation into Thunder Bay deaths

Guests: Alvin Fiddler, Keith Hobbs

SOUNDCLIP

As we were coming out we noticed a young man across the street stumbling towards us and we could see that he was soaking wet head to toe. He was bleeding from the head and you know had a large contusion of some sort on his on his forehead. And in a nutshell told us that he had just crawled out of the river, because, in his words, two white men had come down to the river in a blue truck, beat him up assaulted him, and thrown him in the river. He struggled to get out got out of the river and then noticed that they came back in the truck and they put him back in the river. And so he described that short story but it was obviously alarming to hear. We said you know we need to we need to call the police for you. He was very resistant to that in. My impression was he was resistant because he just wanted to get home and he was uncomfortable with the idea of talking to the police. He said it a few times he asked us why somebody would do that. And he was very upset and it seemed like in shock.

AMT: That his Thunder Bay business owner Tara Lewis recounting a disturbing incident last fall. And though she and her companion reported what happened that night to police the encounter left her uneasy.

SOUNDCLIP

I feel as though and I think everybody there at the time felt as though if this was something that happened to someone like myself, or someone from my community, and I had that story to share with an officer or people in general that it would have been taken more seriously. And that's my impression that it just felt like another story and. And. That I think took us all a little bit off guard. And, I think we need to treat all of these instances as very serious and draw some connections between them.

AMT: Well that feeling of just another story and the persistent questions swirling around the Thunder Bay police service is what prompted chiefs from three Ontario First Nations to hold a press conference yesterday. They demanded that the RCMP conduct its own investigation into three deaths including the death of Josiah Begg and Tammy Keeash, two indigenous teens whose bodies were found in a Thunder Bay river in May. They also want a review of the leadership of the police services board. The flawed investigation into the death of state Stacey Debungie, whose body was also found by that same river two years ago and 2015 was part of what led to an unprecedented systemic review of the way Thunder Bay police investigate the deaths of indigenous people. That case is the third one First Nations leaders have asked the RCMP to take over. But one group has taken the policing of the waterways into its own hands. Jana-Rae Yerxa is a volunteer with the Bear Clan patrol. She spoke to CBC near one of the riverbanks patrols in Thunder Bay.

SOUNDCLIP

When Josiah was missing. I volunteered to help go look for him and. You know, there's been a lot of, our own you that have been found dead in the river. It just weighs really heavy, really heavy on your heart and on your spirit. The anti-indigenous racism in this city that has become so normal, is so troubling and it creates this, atmosphere of heaviness and unrest and unsafeness. So all of that I guess contributes to me wanting to be out here and wanting to take responsibility to try to make things safer for everybody but in particular for Indigenous people generally.

AMT: Jana-Rae Yerxa, one of the volunteers with the Bear Clan patrol in Thunder Bay. Well my next guest is one of the First Nations leaders who held that press conference yesterday. It was held in Toronto. Alvin Fiddler is the Grand Chief of the Nishnawbe Aski Nation. And he's in our Thunder Bay studio. Hello.

ALVIN FIDDLER: Good morning.

AMT: I want to go back to that first clip we heard the long one from Tara Lewis describing the young man coming out of the river. What does that story say to you?

ALVIN FIDDLER: Well that's pretty disturbing and unfortunately that's not the only one that we've heard from individuals and families here, telling me that other incidents where people have alleged that they were assaulted near these rivers and that they were in fact thrown into rivers. And fortunately for them they were able to get out and seek help.

AMT: And she says that she specifically said let's call the police essentially and he didn't want to do that. What do you read into that?

ALVIN FIDDLER: And that's also very disturbing. The fact that our community has lost faith in the police service to serve and protect them is something that is very troubling, and that's why we did the press conference yesterday and in Toronto.

AMT: So, to speak to me a little bit more of what you want done. You're saying you do not have confidence in the police force?

ALVIN FIDDLER: Well, I think it's been very .. the pattern that we've seen with the Thunder Bay police. The fact that, you know they tend to jump to conclusions, sometimes quite hastily when bodies recovered from the river. A good example of that, a couple years ago when Stacey Debungie was found in the river here not even 24 hours, the Thunder Bay police issued a press release saying that it's not criminal that it was simply a drowning.

AMT: And the Ontario Provincial Police is that the force that looks after it, or is it separate force?

ALVIN FIDDLER: It's Thunder Bay Municipal Police Service.

AMT: Right. And do you have faith in the Ontario Provincial Police to investigate these deaths?

ALVIN FIDDLER: Again, we had that discussion with our own leadership, with our own community and they directed us to call in the RCMP and said that because of the long history with the Ontario Provincial Police Service. And also the interaction that they've had with our communities there's a long history there and it's not a good one.

AMT: You are also calling for a review and oversight of the Thunder Bay Police Services Board, the board that is currently investigating allegations of systemic racism within the force. Why are you doing that?

ALVIN FIDDLER: Again, I think you know especially over the last month we've seen this. A total dysfunction with the police services board. The fact that there's been just an utter lack of leadership by the board, we never hear from The Chair of The Police Services Board. And, then as you may know The Police Chief was also let go as well, or suspended.

AMT: He’s under investigation, The Police Chief? On a separate issue? What is it?

ALVIN FIDDLER: No, no. What we're asking the OCPSC to do is to install an administrator that will come in immediately to take over, more or less, take over the police services board because we feel that they have been very silent first of all, and then when they made a decision to come forward and make a public statement through their vice chair last week they made it very clear, in terms of what side they're on. The fact that the vice chair of the press conference sat next to the president of the police union, was you know was just a shock to all of us. And the fact that he made very offensive and disrespectful comments to grieving families was just difficult I think for our families to accept that. To try and dismiss their issues and the concerns that they're bringing forward was just unacceptable.

AMT: Let me just quote here. In a statement issued yesterday, Brian McKinnon the vice chair of the Thunder Bay Police Services Board said the board takes, and I'm quoting here, issue with some of the factual assertions, that the quote being made by first nations leader, and that “ a police service cannot cure systemic racism unquote”. What do you make of that all?

ALVIN FIDDLER: I read another comment yesterday from him and you know they just seem to keep changing their position on how they should be approaching this. And I don't really know what to make of his comments.

AMT: Why do you think the RCMP would do a better job?

ALVIN FIDDLER: Well, I know that he and we did have this discussion amongst ourselves. We know that the RCMP they have their own set of challenges that they're struggling with right now. But you know we just felt that as a federal police service, that they would probably be more in a better position to come in and look into these into these cases.

AMT: What do you think happened to the teens who died in the rivers around the bay?

ALVIN FIDDLER: Well that's the question that the families are asking, right?

AMT: What kinds of questions you want to ask them? What do you want them to consider that might have happened, the police?

ALVIN FIDDLER: They need to look at all the circumstances that led to these tragic deaths, and also to investigate other cases were allegations have been made that there were attempts to harm people in the river systems. And I think the fact that right now there's a total distrust with the municipal police service here in Thunder Bay, is preventing people and it's in fact people are afraid to come forward and make these disclosures. And that's you know that's a really sad statement to make that a community police service is unable to put themselves in a position where any community member can come forward and make those disclosures.

AMT: I'm about to talk to the mayor of Thunder Bay, Mr. Hobbs How effective do you think the mayor has been in addressing your concerns regarding the Thunder Bay Police?

ALVIN FIDDLER: The key to any community resolving its issues is to first of all acknowledge that there are challenges in the community. And again it's been really disappointing with the Police Services Board and even the mayor yesterday saying that racism is not a factor in these deaths. It is again something that we find very difficult to accept. You know based on the testimony we heard last year, in the seven youth inquiry with the seven students that have died here in Thunder Bay. You know student after student, youth after youth came forward and provided testimony about the racism that they face on a daily basis. And the fact that none of the city council members or none of the police services board members ever attended any of those proceedings.

AMT: Alvin Fiddler, we have to leave it there. Thank you for speaking with me.

ALVIN FIDDLER: Oh, yeah. Thanks?

AMT: Alvin fiddler Grand Chief of the Nishnawbe Aski Nation. He's in our Thunderbird's studio. Well, one of the people standing behind police in Thunder Bay is the City's Mayor. Before he was elected mayor Keith Hobbs was a long time police officer in the city. Mayor Keith Hobbs is in our Thunder Bay studio. Hello, Mayor Hobbs.

KEITH HOBBS: Good morning, Anna Maria.

AMT: Does your city have a problem with racism?

KEITH HOBBS: Yes absolutely. I've been in the Toronto Star, The Global and Mail, all national media exposing that fact and admitting that we do have a racism issue in the city.

AMT: Does it extend to your police force?

KEITH HOBBS: I think it extends to all walks of life in every city and every province and every country of the world. I think we'd be naive to say that it doesn't.

AMT: Okay, so you're saying the world is racist, but we've got some dead teenagers coming out of rivers in your community. Why do you think First Nations leaders have lost confidence in the Thunder Bay police?

KEITH HOBBS: I just want to give you a statistic right off the bat in the last 10 years we've had 47 homicides in the city of Thunder Bay. Forty five of those have been solved by a charge that's a 96 percent solvency rate. That would be the envy of the RCMP, the FBI, Scotland Yard. I challenge any police service anywhere to match those numbers. A lot of those victims were indigenous people. And to say that the police treat indigenous victim victims different. I just don't buy it, stats don’t back up.

AMT: Fair enough. And you've just given me a statistic of 47 homicides. But does everyone agree that some of the deaths of indigenous people were never declared homicides, were they not?

KEITH HOBBS: Absolutely none of the indigenous deaths of students or young people have been declared a homicide.

KEITH HOBBS: Okay. I know some people are concerned that perhaps that the investigations need to go a little deeper because they might have been. Isn't that the nut of the issue?

KEITH HOBBS: Well, that's what First Nations are saying. Yes. But you know, we have to work on evidence and like I said that the police are very thorough. They have an excellent record of investigating deaths and you know what? I don't think we need to politicize death.

AMT: I want to play a clip for you. It is a clip of you. This is what you said Monday regarding the way police investigate indigenous deaths in Thunder Bay.

SOUNDCLIP

The police and the community, we can't be everywhere. We can't babysit these children. But we need to babysit them obviously. We need to get measures in place to keep the kids away from the rivers first and foremost. Education I think is going to be a key piece of this. Getting better parenting skills and when I say parenting skills I just don't mean boarding parents. I mean leadership skills. We have to street proof of those youth coming down. We have to do a better job at it. Obviously we haven't done a good enough job.

AMT: What do you mean by needing babysitting?

KEITH HOBBS: Well I think we need to street proof our own children. I have three children they're grown up now. But you know, I had to street proof them, talk about the dangers, talked about dangers of rivers. I just want to give you a couple more statistics. We have approximately 5000 indigenous families living in Thunder Bay and we haven't had a drowning. We have Front Irwin First Nation beside us. They live by a river. There's been no drownings. We have hundreds of students and our primary secondary and post-secondary schools in Thunder Bay we've had no drownings. We've had drownings with children from then that have come down to hurt communities and obviously we have to do a better job of keeping them safe and in street proofing them when they come to them.

AMT: OK so let me just pick that apart a little bit, because you're saying in other words, they you're making an assumption that they've somehow gone into the river, or like have slipped in the river and drowned, and they need to be street proofed when it comes to the river. That's what you're saying?

KEITH HOBBS: Definitely. I mean if you look at the inquest, alcohol was involved you know related to some of the deaths. So I mean we have to teach them all about living in the city.

AMT: Okay. So let me just ask you though, because you're saying we haven't had these other people drowning but maybe that's because no one picked them up and threw them in the river. Isn't that.. isn't that the ..

KEITH HOBBS: Well, that’s a stretch, that’s really a stretch.

AMT: We don't know that, do we? We just heard a clip of a woman saying..

KEITH HOBBS: No. Absolutely. And I don’t know how you can make that assertion when you certainly don't know it and there's no evidence to prove it. That's a real stretch.

AMT: But we just heard a woman talking about a man coming out of a river and people throwing him back in and they were in a blue truck. So how do you know they weren't thrown in a river?

KEITH HOBBS: We don't. We don't know that for sure. But you can't make that assumption when you don't have the evidence. We work and evidence the police work on evidence.

AMT: What evidence do you have that they somehow weren't street proofed? Why would you make that assumption?

KEITH HOBBS: Well first of all I mean we get calls all the time of people partying down by the rivers under the bridges and the police are always on patrol and trying to deter that kind of behavior. So it just happens.

AMT: I want to play another clip for you. Gerry McNeilly is Ontario's first Independent Police Review Director. He agrees with First Nations leaders that cases have been dismissed too quickly. Listen to him.

SOUNDCLIP

Another trial, another death. And the investigations don't seem to be in my opinion being carried out in full and thorough manner. The information I have, and I did make some calls talk to people, is that you know the police assistance wasn't that great. So, that tells me that something is not working properly.

AMT: What do you say to that, Mayor Hobbs?

KEITH HOBBS: I say that all cases should be thoroughly investigated and, you know, I have no reason to believe that they haven't been, but obviously there's assertions that they haven't been, so, whatever. And the police services board have said they welcome any investigation by OIPRDD or the OCPC.

AMT: These are the oversight bodies, Yes. So, can I ask you though you're a former police officer. Can you be objective?

KEITH HOBBS: Certainly I can be objective you know as mayor of Thunder Bay. I've traveled up to many northern communities fly in communities. We host flood victims and fire, forest fire victims. We've had hundreds and hundreds of indigenous people from northern communities stay in our communities and we've kept them safe. You know, so, I have questions too, and I certainly [unintelligible] the state when they came up after Jordan Wabasse, the 7 student went into the river. The state asked me what we should be doing. I said we should be having an inquest that interview hit the [unintelligible] room floor. You know, it seems like the municipalities are getting caught up in this whole colonization, simulation, the residential schools, and we're having to answer to it, when the feds and the province should be entered to that, as well. What I'm saying too, is you know the time for finger pointing is over. Chief Kanate from North Curb relate where Tammy Keeash was from said it best, we need to work together.

AMT: Okay, well, we're going to have to leave it there. But if there's finger pointing, would you like to see more investigation done? By police into what happened to these young people?

KEITH HOBBS: Well definitely. I mean we need to get to the bottom of it and we have to stop that from happening. Everyone is concerned about that.

AMT: We have to leave it there. Mayor Hobbs, thank you.

KEITH HOBBS: Thank you.

AMT: Keith Hobbs, mayor of Thunder Bay. He joined us from our studio in Thunder Bay. Stay with us. The CBC News is next and then photojournalist Ali Arkady earn the trust of an elite Iraqi special forces unit. He's now in hiding. We will hear his story when we return. This is The Current

Iraqi photographer on the run for chronicling country's war crimes

Guests: Mitch Potter, Ed Kashi

Hello. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: Still to come. He is one of the most revered figures in Tibetan Buddhism. The Dalai Lama is his mentor. Some days the pressure to be a perfect spiritual leader has a lot to bear. My conversation with His Holiness The 17th Karmapa, in half an hour. But first the huge price of seeing major war crimes through the tiny lens of a camera.

SOUNDCLIP

The hours of video and still photos are the result of great battlefield courage by this Iraqi photo journalist Ali Arkady, who was embedded last year with the Emergency Response Division. But tonight our country is showing another kind of courage. Blowing the whistle on soldiers he followed and became friends.

[Sound: Moaning]

Revealing for the first time, graphic scenes of torture and murder of civilians. War crimes, some too horrific to be broadcast.

AMT: When photojournalists Ali Arkady gained the trust of an elite unit of Iraqi soldiers. They invited him to capture their battlefield exploits, as they fought to take the city of Mosul back from ISIS. The report we just heard was from ABC News which joined with the Toronto Star to tell Ali Arkady’s story. What started out as a project to show Iraqis uniting across sectarian lines and fighting together for a common cause, quickly turned into a gruesome tale of torture and tyranny. As part of our occasional series Eye on the Media we're looking at the activities of Iraq's so-called emergency response division as documented by Ali Arkady. And a warning we're going to be talking about some disturbing acts of violence here. Mitch Potter reported on this story. He's a foreign affairs writer for The Toronto Star. He's with me in our Toronto studio. Hi.

MITCH POTTER: Good morning.

AMT: So what story did Ali Arkady set out to tell?

MITCH POTTER: So, initially, in his first encounter which was almost exactly a year ago now he was first introduced to this E.R.D. unit of Iraqi special forces in the battle for Falluja in Anbar province. He spent three days with them. He was overwhelmed by this sort of bipartisan post sectarian group that he was with. He really thought this is the new Iraq. And so he's celebrated that. He made a short almost a trailer you could say for a future documentary put it online. It went viral. This is the new Iraq fighting the good fight against ISIS. The interior ministry, because this group of special forces answers not to the defense ministry but to the Interior Ministry in Iraq. They were thrilled beyond belief and they knew the battle for Mosul was coming on and it was like you know the Willy Wonka golden ticket or something. From that point on, Ali Arkady had absolute clearance to go anywhere he wanted to with this group.

AMT: So tell us a little bit more about this particular unit. It's an interior ministry Emergency Response Division. Tell me more about right.

MITCH POTTER: Originally American trained. This was after the collapse of the Iraqi army when ISIS first seized Mosul. This E.R.D. is one of several groups that was formed under the Interior Ministry which is again arm's length from the defense ministry, and it is understood that the Interior Ministry is far more sectarian it's more Shia controlled in Iraq. And so there were deep concerns from the get go that this would be a continuation of the sectarian battles that have plagued this country since the day Saddam [unintelligible] decades prior. But of course most excruciatingly since the fall of Saddam Hussein.

AMT: Okay, so he starts documenting and what's the unit doing in their fight for Mosul, then?

MITCH POTTER: So they're doing what I guess some military call mopping up operations that are going door to door street to street looking for ISIS sympathizers, looking to establish stability. And while this is happening there are waves and waves of returnees trying to move back to the village. That's just been opened up.

AMT: And Ali is with them this entire time he comes and goes. What's that?

MITCH POTTER: Yeah. It was incremental; I mean as much as he had carte blanche, the full trust of the unit hadn't yet been established. So initially, they were going on night operations targeting ISIS suspects and Ali was invited to come but not take photographs and so he was recording everything on his phone surreptitiously. After a few nights of that, he was invited to go ahead and start taking pictures and then video. Eventually it came to the point where it was almost seamless whatever they did he was there. His camera was always there.

AMT: And when did he start to realize there was something very wrong with this unit?

MITCH POTTER: He was starting to hear of detainees being killed. And it was chatter around the bases that he was spending time at, two mornings after he'd bump into somebody who was on that night raid two nights ago, and he would hear yeah he's dead now he's he was tortured and killed. And Ali didn't know whether to take that at face value. He didn't take it in with his own cameras but it put his radar up in subsequent nights. It was over the span of November December that he saw the worst incrementally and sort of exponentially as the days passed.

AMT: Well give us an idea of the war crimes he saw and that filmed then.

MITCH POTTER: So, the most shocking thing for me is that the trust was so complete that the perpetrators, the members of this E.R.D. unit actually began sharing their own incriminating images with Ali's. So, off site they were pursuing he would sort of be asked to leave after the first one hour of torture. He would be asked to leave, or he'd have filled his SD cards and was so afraid that they somebody would com, a more senior figure would come and have him purge his cards that he's crept away to backup copies of it.

AMT: These are the digital cards in his camera.

MITCH POTTER: Correct.

AMT: So, the pictures and the videos.. He’s got video he's got stills. It's harrowing, it's horrific.

MITCH POTTER: It's hours and hours of material.

AMT: We'll link to your stories on our website cbc.ca/thecurrent and Mitch's stories in the Toronto Star. But it's important to see what he saw. What do we know about the victims?

MITCH POTTER: In the most the, single most incriminating piece of footage was actually supplied by Captain Omar Nazar. It's he and his co-leader of the unit summarily executing a detainee who is trying to run away with his arms bound behind his back. They fired nine shots in all he falls after six shots and they finish him off with three more.

AMT: There's another scene that they close the drapes and there's a man with his arms bound and attached to the ceiling and he's on some kind of a stool, and someone says to them when I say go you kick the stool. Parts of that had been seen, two parts of that I think, as part of your photographic coverage.

MITCH POTTER: They use the weight of full bottles of water, a case of water is placed on the man's back after the stools kicked away to put him in a greater position of distress.

AMT: So were these people who were suspected of being ISIS? Like who are these people? Who are these victims in those photographs?

MITCH POTTER: Titularly, were ISIS suspects, however..

AMT: But suspects, we don't know?

MITCH POTTER: No. And in point of fact this E.R.D. unit of special forces is playing judge, jury and executioner and in some of these images all at once. We have to unpack every single story. In some cases, it's a situation of guilt by association. Somebody’s brother is known to have been active in ISIS in Mosul, a sister in law was active in ISIS in Mosul. And so by extension the rest of the family must be too. So we're going to take it out on this one right here.

AMT: ABC News reached Captain Omar Nazar, the head of this Emergency Response Division and one of the perpetrators of this violence. You’ve mentioned already that he's in that scene with the shooting of the guy running. They asked him about the torture and killing of the men they captured. And this is part of what he had to say. Listen to this.

SOUNDCLIP

We have made mistakes but they were all directed towards the enemy, ISIS. And I'm proud of those mistakes. We do not want prisoners from my. I'm telling you we don't take prisoners. He's not human. He's a monster.

Isn’t that murder?

No. It's not considered murder.

Is there're not going to be an investigation?

I'm already a star and I knew it would make me a bigger star by doing this. Why? Because my country is longing for someone who would help me get rid of terrorism?

AMT: Mitch Potter does that explain why these soldiers would be so cavalier about having all of this filmed?

MITCH POTTER: There's a powerful arrogance at work with this unit, that much is clear. But there's more besides, in some of the images you and particularly in some of the videos you get what we thought didn't exist with this unit at least Ali didn't in his first encounter. There is sectarianism there is Shia revenge being played out on some of these suspects and it's spoken aloud ‘We crush them. We crush them in revenge for all the mothers’ in one particularly harrowing video. Some of them were motivated by the idea of exploiting their opportunity to get women alone to isolate male suspects. So the women that the male suspects were with were then alone. And you know in the fullness of time Ali's going to be writing and documenting more about that. What we tried to do was separate what the images told us what we had evidence of versus what Ali told us, which are allegations through his eyes alone. I can tell you that Ali believes a huge part of the subtext of what was going on was to take men out of the pictures, so the women could be alone, with the intention of sexually assaulting those women.

AMT: I don't know what to say after that. What about the wider outrage, the uptake of these stories, the international outrage?

MITCH POTTER: Quite frankly, in any conflict since Abu Ghraib I can't remember images this powerful.

AMT: But in Abu Ghraib there was outrage that went on for days and days and days. I don't see the same uptake. Am I wrong?

MITCH POTTER: We we had a big debate about it beforehand wondering, because I remember the same thing and part of me felt, have we been so bombarded with what some people describe as war porn out of Syria in the last five years? The cacophony of dead images, images of terrible crimes on social media, that people are desensitized to this. That it's just another clickable thing and they move on from that. I don't know the answer to that but I don't think that's motivation not to publish.

AMT: Let's get back to Ali. Did the division become suspicious of him filming at any point?

MITCH POTTER: They did to varying degrees. As more and more outrage came through his lens. There clearly were. There was an impulse to test and retest his loyalty. He describes an experience where toward the last days he was there when he saw the worst he was under immense pressure. They were constantly seeking reaffirmation of his intentions, what he's going to do with it. So the trust began to break down a little bit, at least with some members of the unit and ultimately in council with his mentors at Seven Agency, the photo agencies that's been nurturing him for three years. He feigned an illness of his daughter his four year old daughter. He built that excuse over about 48 hours saying My daughter is really, really sick. I've got to get out I've got to get out. And he finally was able to leave Iraq and almost immediately made his way out of the country altogether with his wife and daughter.

AMT: So he's in hiding with them?

MITCH POTTER: He is and has been ever since.

AMT: You reported there's a chance he could come to Canada.

MITCH POTTER: And it seems like a very good chance. The Global Reporting Center at UBC was approached. I think initially the idea was maybe get Ali to America, and then Donald Trump got elected and took power and presented the visa ban that targets Iraqis among others. And Ali's agency began looking elsewhere and UBC has presented a seat for him as a journalist in residence for the next year.

AMT: Mitch Potter thanks for coming in.

MITCH POTTER: Thank you.

AMT: Mitch Potter foreign affairs writer for The Toronto Star. He joined us in our Toronto studio. My next guest knows a lot about the risks photojournalists take when they go into conflict zones. Ed Kashi is a photojournalist, filmmaker and a member of the Seven photo agency. He's been mentoring Ali Arkady through the Seven agency. Ed Kashi is in New York City. Hello.

ED KASHI: Hello. Greetings.

AMT: What were your thoughts when you first saw these images?

ED KASHI: Well you know, I’ve recounted this, I literally just started..I broke down and started to sob. I was just so shaken by it for multiple reasons. Well mainly because I have done a lot of work. Actually, my mother and father are from Baghdad and immigrated to New York in 1943. So when I saw the pictures my first thought was, this this will never stop, this will never stop the sectarian hatred, and this almost fetishistic violence that has now kind of developed out of, not just Iraq but that region of the world.

AMT: But you were also sobbing for him.

ED KASHI: Yeah. This is one of these moments where it's like just a reality shift, you know , I'm sitting comfortably in my home but I kind of realize that certain things would never be the same. And you know, certainly from the geopolitical point of view, the hope that Iraq or the sort of positive idea that Iraqi forces would remove ISIS, was sort of tainted by this. That it is not a clean win, if and when it happens. And then for Ali, that he had of course endured, witnessed all of this and then immediately, once I shared this with my colleagues at Seven you know, essentially a few who have a lot more experience than I do in in conflict zones and human rights issues related to that. We realized that this was work that was that was beyond. I mean he originally reached out to me would you help me edit for the World Press Award. You know so it was a very innocent request and then once I looked at the pictures I was like wow. This is way beyond you know, to put on the brakes here and let's evaluate what we have and figure out how to move forward.

AMT: Well so when you started looking at what he had, did you become worried about his safety as well? In terms of ..they might realize just in even greater depth what he had?

ED KASHI: You know, immediately the concern was he's got to get out of Iraq?

AMT: When was the last time you spoke to him?

ED KASHI: A few days ago.

AMT: How's he doing?

ED KASHI: Rough. Really rough. Just you know, and I don't want to make more out of it than it is, you know I don't want to dwell on this, but he's sort of really on the verge of a nervous breakdown. You know, his family has been dislocated. His father is in hiding. You know the people in a sense closer to him; they don't necessarily see him as a hero at this moment. So one can only imagine what that must be like. And so you know he's really struggling with some with the demons of what he's witnessed and the impact on his and the lives of those that he loved.

AMT: Well I have so many more questions. First of all how did he get out of Iraq with his pictures and the video? Did he have to sneak out in the end?

ED KASHI: Well, I mean, I hesitate to give too much information on this because you know he has received death threats. But you know essentially we immediately figure out a way for him to get the work out digitally and then ultimately physically get it out on hard drives. So that we can have could have it backed up safely. You know God forbid anything happened to him or for the work. And so, then of course we had to get him out. And you know that was largely performed by Andy Patrick, our former CEO, who had just moved on to a new opportunity from Seven. But he was amazing in how he took on this mission of helping and in a way saving Ali. And you know,, those efforts continue today through what we can do a,d then there's just so many so many friends. An amazing example was last Friday night I find out that, or Saturday night, Ali is flipping out sobbing all day. I call a friend and she call someone and then the next thing you know someone has gone to where he is, wherever he is, and they're taking care of him. So there's this network of people that are caring for him.

AMT: How would you describe his work as a photographer?

ED KASHI: Well you know, he's someone who's coming out of a tradition of you know photojournalism and documentary photography. And what's beautiful to watch over the last few years that I've managed him, is that he on his own started to branch out into more artistic expression using photography and visual storytelling and multimedia and video. So you know, it's so frustrating that at this moment when as a kind of creative soul he was trying to burst with creativity and ideas, that now he's in a position where for the moment, he can't work. It's very hard. You know, like the work we're talking about here is a tremendous example of documentation and done in somewhat of an artful way but not so much so that the emotional impact or the information is at all changed or diminished.

AMT: Well the pictures are, they’re harrowing, but they are evocative as well?

ED KASHI: Yeah. Yeah.

AMT: So this was a really important project on a lot of levels?

ED KASHI: Yeah. I mean as Gary Knight one of the founders of Seven said, that upon further reflection he views this as possibly one of most important bodies of examples of photojournalism uncovering or documenting war crimes. And this is work that you know we might be speaking about in 30 years from now.

AMT: Because of what he captured and how he captured it.

ED KASHI: Yeah, that he was able to get this level of intimacy and trust.

AMT: You know, you've worked in conflict zones?

ED KASHI: Yeah.

AMT: No one gets closer than the man or the woman behind the stills camera. What drives you to do that?

ED KASHI: Well, and that's that is absolutely true. It's sort of there's no choice in the matter actually. I think you know that was the motivation to do this kind of work is a mixture of wanting to bear witness. And I mean apart from those who are just addicted to the sort of adrenaline of doing it, that certainly is not me. I don't think that was Ali initially for sure. But you know it's really about witnessing history and witnessing things that others won't see. And then there's this exhilaration when you can capture that knowing you can then share it with the world.

AMT: So, Ali has witnessed and through the lens and by being there incredible cruelty by people he had come to like. How does he deal with that psychologically now?

ED KASHI: It's a great question because it might be one of the roughest aspects of this, because I remember when we would have Skype and email discussions about this and you know he said you know I've met this unit and there's a Shia and Sunni and they're fighting together against ISIS. What do you think? I was like, yes. That's an amazing story and it's the kind of story that fit the world. And Iraqis need to see. And then of course you know he took upon himself and developed that relationship further and started to create this body of work. I mean in a way he has also been violated. You know that might be weird to say but you know his trust was violated. He believed in these guys. This started as something that was hopeful and ended in tragedy.

AMT: It's important to remember, huh, when we see these pictures, that really do allow the rest of us to understand the layers of what's going on, and maybe to start asking questions of accountability, that someone actually was there and has to process it on a whole other level again, just to get that to the rest of us.

ED KASHI: Yeah. No it's absolutely correct. You know one of the reasons that work like this, while it has had tremendous media attention, but is not rising as a news item, because this is potentially something that the U.S. Congress could take up and it could, you know, it's sort of related to the Leahy Amendment you know which is that if it's found that you had partners of U.S. forces are committing crimes against humanity, then we have to stop supporting them, right? This gets into very tricky touchy geopolitical issues at a time where we have to fight. You know this fight has to happen sadly unfortunately. And it could be a bit of a very sticky wicket here.

AMT: And as you said people will be talking about this years from now, and they'll be asking questions about what the international community and the rest of the media asked and did not ask years from now as well.

ED KASHI: yeah.

AMT: Ed catchy, thank you for your insights and your thoughts on this.

ED KASHI: All right. Thank you so much.

AMT: Ed Kashi, photojournalist and filmmaker he's a member of the Seven photo agency which was created by a group of conflict photographers. He joined us from New York City. We will follow this story as it develops and if you want to see some of the pictures there on our site as well cbc.ca/thecurrent. We link to the Toronto Stars reporting on Ali Arkady, including some of the videos and images he smuggled out of Iraq. And I will warn you they are images that are disturbing they are not easy to see. In our next half hour I'm talking to the man who was seven years when he found out he was the 17th reincarnation of one of Tibetan Buddhism's holiest of lineages. He is 32 years old now. He is the 17th Karmapa. He is poised to lead the world's Tibetan Buddhists. He joins me in just a moment. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti this is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

'It's difficult to make balance': Dalai Lama successor navigates modern world

Guest: Ogyen Trinley Dorje

AMT: Hello I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current. When Ogyen Trinley Dorje was born in a small village in Tibet in 1985, a cuckoo landed on the tent in which he was born. That's an auspicious sign in Tibetan culture. When he was seven the family was visited by Lamas, Buddhist spiritual leaders who had been traveling through the valley in search of the person who was the reincarnation of the 16th Karmapa. The Karmapa is one of the holiest figures in Tibetan Buddhism believed to have been reincarnated over hundreds of years. The 16th Karmapa had left a detailed letter containing the birth year the parents, names and the location of the 17th reincarnation. Ogyen Trinley Dorje was a match. Today he is 32 years old. He is a monk. He is poised to lead the world's Tibetan Buddhists through his separate spiritual lineage, when the Dalai Lama dies. His holiness the 17th Karmapa joins me in our Toronto studio. Hello and welcome.

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Thank you, thank you.

AMT: Why have you come to Canada?

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: In Canada we have one of the largest population of the Tibetan community here. And also lots of Buddhist followers. And they are close to me and a long period of time out to visit in Canada. Then of course, we took long time after I arrived in India, already 17 years. All those years there were close to me. Many times I couldn't make, but at this time and the first time I came to Canada.

AMT: There are tens of millions of followers of Tibetan Buddhism. Why do you see it as a path for so many people?

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: I think in some of this sort of Buddhist principles maybe it's become more common sense, maybe it's not just for Buddhist followers. Non-Buddhists also there found some of the Buddhist principle or teachings as maybe it's inspiring them to find their own sort of meaning of life and also inner peace.

AMT: It's interesting, isn't it? Because that it is true many non-Buddhists are attracted to the messages of Buddhism.

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Yes. Actually some of them like non-Buddhist Christian followers, also they're sort of interested in Buddhism because some of them told me, because they sort of have the connection and have these kind of understanding of Buddhist outlook, then they've found made more faith to Christian than before.

AMT: And you are travelling at a time that we see so much suffering in the world today, through the migrant crises, through terrorism and war and poverty. What do you make of all the suffering you see in the world right now?

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: I think people even though it's things become maybe kind of difficult and lots of sufferings, people feeling of sufferings, that's why people need more, sort of not just like material benefits, they need more sort of internal, some encouragement, maybe some sort of some sort of [speaking in Tibetan]

TRANSLATOR: They need to find new hope, and we need compassion in our hearts. So it's now looking more inward at ourselves than outward.

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Yeah.

AMT: And as you come with your own message to people, Help us understand the importance of that compassion.

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: [Speaking in Tibetan]

TRANSLATOR: So to recognize that we live in a world where we're all interdependent. We as people are interdependent with other people as well. And to not take this, the view of it being a burden or something to worry about but rather as a responsibility. And to feel that encouragement that we're all watching out for each other and have that empathy within you to live in harmony.

AMT: Can you explain to us, your Holiness, you are the Karmapa.

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Yes.

AMT: Can you explain to us what is.

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: What that is, I think I am fully understand, you know like, of course when I was age of 7 then, recognizes 17 Kamarpa. Of course that time I'm very young. I don't have any sort of idea about Karmapa, to be a Kamarpa, what it looks like. That time I'm just only feeling or maybe you have become Kamarpa, then you will get more toys, more friends to play. But later I found, oh, that is not the case. Maybe it's, Kamarpa... It's, it's become very serious, to be Kamarpa is very serious job. Because it's people looking at you as a sort of like example, you know. Like, Kamarpa won’t make any mistake. These sort of ideas. He is the God. He is the Buddha, you know. You know people have lots of expectation for me. That's why I think it's not easy. Even though I'm, of course, I cannot be like people.. become like what people expected. I think even though I'm trying, trying my best. But for that's why I think, for me, to become a Kamarpa is not a question of, if you really Kamarpa what do you feel? Like, you have in these sort of people, lots of people asking me you know you're at the 17^th, you know, how about the past 16 Kamarpa? Maybe you should have some memories, you know. The Buddhist or believe life after life that's why you should have some memories. Could you please tell me some memories? But I don't have any sort of clear memories or clears sort of past experience and this sort of things. But I think I consider become Kamarpa is like I get some opportunity to serve other people.

AMT: You were the 17th reincarnation of the Karmapa. So our idea that you would have those memories is really a flawed idea, is it not? That’s not what it's about, the reincarnation.

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Because reincarnation means, like, you know, we believe this consciousness is you know going life up to life. That means first Kamarpa is born in 900 years ago then that means you know you know, like the consciousness is continued to until now.

AMT: You were discovered to be the 17^th reincarnation when you were seven.

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Yes.

AMT: But there were signs before that, at your birth.

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Yeah, yes.

AMT: Can you tell us about that?

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Of course they have some. When I was born and my parents and my relatives and also neighbors, they told me when you are born they have lots of auspicious signs. You know those things that Tibetan people think it's auspicious, like some sound like a special sound like heard by all the villagers, and these sort of things. Then that time that people guessing you know. Oh, you have some important person or like some holy man. But they're not sure, you know. They're not sure I’m the Kamarpa. Even I never dreamed about that. Because Kamarpa is such sort of a high ranking person than to born in that very sort of remote area. Maybe that they didn't sort of even dreamed about.

AMT: I don't want to interrupt, but you were born in a in a yak skin tent in a remote part..

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Not yak skin, It’s yak hair.

AMT: Yak hair. I'm sorry.

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: [laughing] Thank you.

AMT: A yak hair tent. But your family was not wealthy. You were..

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: No, no. No school. Not any sort of modern education, no modern development nothing.

AMT: And so when they realized who you were, they moved you.

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: To the monastery.

AMT: to the monastery.

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Yes

AMT: Okay. Would you see your parents after that?

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Yes, yes.

AMT: You would, okay.

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Maybe once in year, twice in year, yeah.

AMT: But your life changed dramatically, at that point.

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Yes yes yes.

AMT: And can you talk to me a little bit about what that was like?

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: I think its Western people are they're difficult to understand this, I think. Because, you know, you are such a young person like seven years old. Then, people took from the family, put you into you know, bring you into the monastery. And they educated and their family members they don't have any responsibility they don't have any authorities, to sort of to raise me.

AMT: But that you are a holy man and in other religions they are elected or they choose. And in this case you are chosen.

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Because that is like, we have the tradition, especially in the Kamarpa lineage, we have the tradition that before the previous Kamarpa he passed away, you know before he died, he would leave a letter. In that letter he would mention the next time he will born in such and such place. You know this place and parents name, name of the parents and also which direction, which year he will born. All the details, he will write down all the details. He will give that letter to his men, student. Then that student according to that letter, then they will sort of search party. Then they will send the search party to found the next reincarnation Kamarpa.

AMT: And that is how they found you?

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Yeah.

AMT: And you are now 32 years old, am I correct?

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Yes.

AMT: Is it true you like hip hop?

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Yeah.

AMT: And poetry?

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Poetry and, yeah, theater, yeah, those are the sort of things. Yeah.

AMT: So, I think that I have to ask you because you are a man whose destiny has been determined from the age of seven.

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Yes.

AMT: And yet you live in the modern world.

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Yes.

AMT: You like these other things.

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Yes.

AMT: Is that a struggle to balance that or is that just..

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Maybe a little bit, little bit .Because one hand you need to sort of like a preserve the traditional way of life or maybe traditional sort of value, and also you need to follow up all the modern sort of modern world. I think some time it's a little bit of sort of, you know it's difficult to make balance. You know, if we're to march in modern science then and yet you're afraid and you know you will lose some sort of tradition, this kind of, how to say it, we think it's important. And if you are you know so sort of desired or maybe sort of narrow minded in the sort of traditional way of life, then I think only traditional way of life, then also you can't catch up the modern world.

AMT: The Dalai Lama is your mentor.

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Yeah.

AMT: What is your relationship like with him?

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Teacher and student relationship you can say . Maybe sometimes I feel His holiness is not just like a spiritual teacher of Tibetan people. It's also like a father of Tibetan people he's to care, you know like this big family. He's become a sort of spiritual father rather than a spiritual just a teacher. That's why he's like.. sometime I also have the feeling that he's kind of .. kind of father or big father to me.

AMT: And that is that the role you want to emulate?

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Oh my goodness. I don't have that. You know a big sort of, how to say ambition or expectation. I’m trying to sort of ..I'm trying my best to sort of feel very close with the people, to be sort of.. then so that people can feel that somebody is really truly love them, or truly sort of have affection towards them. I think that is very important. Yes.

AMT: Are you seen as the next Dalai Lama? Is that your role?

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Next Dalai is.. should be the sort of 14.. This is the 14th Dalai Lama. Next Dalai Lama should be the 15th the Dalai Lama is not me. Of course because His Holiness become aged you know, he's over sort of 80 plus. That's why the young leaderships, they don't need to sort of take more responsibilities. That includes lots of sort of very sort of good number of young leadership. And we have a good number of young leaderships maybe I am, maybe one of them. But I think we all need to take this as our responsibilities, not just me.

AMT: When we talk about the Dalai Lama we also we look at Tibet.

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Yes.

AMT: You live in India you do not live in Tibet now, am I right?

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: No. I'm living in India already 17 years.

AMT: You have not been able to live there since when you were 14 I think, right?

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Not able to, but it's like some reason that I should leave Tibet. Yes.

AMT: And spiritual reason a reason as part of your destiny.

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Yes. Yes.

AMT: OK. But you had to escape. Am I right?

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Yes. Yes.

AMT: What was that like. Can you tell us the story of your escape?

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: That is like eh, even though it's quiet it's sort of dangerous and we took eight days and eight nights to reach Dharamsala. That is sort of of we consider the second capital city of Tibet. Of course, it's not easy. Even though it is thousands of Tibetans leave Tibet and escape from Tibet to India every year. But I'm not, maybe it is a little different because I'm a public figure. Maybe people can recognize me very easily. Also time is short. Short as possible. Otherwise you know Chinese government they will found, oh, I’m not there. Then they will search me. And even we reached Nepal is not safe, because Nepal have lots of influence by China. That's why I think we sort of make the plan that as quick much as possible to reach India.

AMT: What is your hope for Tibet? Do you foresee a time that there will be autonomy?

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: I don't want to just like, at the moment I want to make it simple. That I think Tibetan people what they need is they need more sort of freedom. Maybe you can say freedom of speech, freedom of faith. And also because His Holiness Dalai Lama is the sort of spiritual leadership of Tibet and they consider him the soul of Tibet or maybe soul or live Tibet. That's why I think they should have right to sort of have His Holiness to return Tibet. And Tibetan people can take sort of teaching from him. This sort of simple ideas. I think normal Tibetans they have these sort of things they don't have much thought of this kind of political sort of, how to say, ambitions all these things. I think that they need is just simple freedom.

AMT: And the Chinese don't accept Buddhism, right now.

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: They accept Buddhism but they're not accepting His Holiness.

AMT: Right. Because it's interesting, they've one man yet he's not just any man.

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Yes.

AMT: And that's why they see that as a as a threat. What role do you see for women in the future of Buddhism?

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: I think women can sort of play a very important leadership in the sort of Tibet like Tibetan Buddhism or general Buddhism. Because you know, during the Buddha's time he give equal opportunities to his student man and woman and [unintelligible]. Maybe in the past, we have that sort of, we lose some opportunities. But now is 21st century. We need more sort of women leaderships. Maybe woman is symbol of love and affection. That's why we need more loving affection.

AMT: And do you believe that women can be fully ordained nuns?

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Of course. Yes.

AMT: Is this happening now or is this a chance that you are pushing?

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: It will take some time because this is the, first you need to you know, receive this vow, then next you need to receive another vow, maybe that will take you maybe two or three years. After then they will become fully ordained.

AMT: I do want to know. You know that some in Tibet would like to see the holy man be more aggressive?

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Ah.

AMT: To get more freedoms here.

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Yeah yeah.

AMT: What do you think of that?

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Maybe we time in some part of the world we see that some of this sort of we tend to be sort of religious leaders but they are persuading some kind of violent, and like the [talks in Tibetan] .

TRANSLATOR: So there are some who wish to see His Holiness be more aggressive but ..

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Not. Sometime like it. You know in some like Myanmar, we also have somebody Buddhist there who took violent you know action. I think these are things real is not solve the problem is increasing problem. That's why I think to be sort of nonviolent is the only sort of way.

AMT: The only path.

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Only path that we can sort of solve the problem.

AMT: Well I want to ask you a little bit more about that, because again we are in a world right now where we see horrific harrowing violence. And you are someone who looks at all of this and I would like your spiritual interpretation of what you're seeing. And what you might want the rest of us to know about how you see all of these things that are going on from Syria to the migrants to the to the problems that continue in Myanmar? How do you reconcile that? How do you find a path forward for you and your followers?

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Yeah I think that's [talks in Tibetan]

TRANSLATOR: When you look at faith right you can use it in many different ways. Similar to medicine, it can be used for good or it can be used for bad. And so there are faith leaders who, in the name of religion or for personal profit or specific objectives you know in the name of faith, do things that are not true to the actual faith. So he thinks that the faith needs to focus back on the people and those who use faith for other purposes are not really practicing the faith.

AMT: So going forward in 2017 what can we do to better understand each other?

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: I think we need to make more dialogue. Maybe some time, actually I attend some of this sort of interfaith dialogue. But if you have these kind of very formal sort of discussion and conference that's how everybody's speak very nice very sort of very good, but in the private life, then, they're sort of telling another sort of stories and other sort of outlook. Maybe that isn't not good. What we need is maybe maybe more personal sort of connection, personal dialogue, so that maybe we can really make friends, not just like just show. Like we need more really sort of personal affection and understanding. I think that is very important.

AMT: And that's something you are pushing for.

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Yes yes.

AMT: It's an honor to speak to you. Your Holiness, thank you.

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: Thank you. Thank you.

OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE: His Holiness the 17th Karmapa with me in our Toronto studio. And we want to thank Butala Karposhay for providing some translation. That's our program for today stay with Radio 1 for Q. The Beatles eighth studio album Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band celebrates the 50th anniversary of its release today. Jan Haworth won the Grammy for the album's cover art and she'll tell Tom power, how one of the most iconic album covers of all time came to be. Now if you've been anywhere near the internet in the last two days you'll have come across that tweet by the U.S. president Donald Trump that left everyone confused and wondering what he was trying to say. When questioned about the tweet. The White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer refused to dismiss it as a typo he dug in deeper and said “I think the president and a small group of people knew exactly what he meant”. So we're giving the last word today to all the news reporters hosts and anchors reported on that cryptic tweet that Twitter typo turned conspiracy without knowing exactly what it was or even how to say it. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. Thanks for listening to The Current.

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