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The Current Transcript for June 1, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

MEGAN WILLIAMS: [Clip: Woman speaking italian] Suffocating, she says, for her growing up, the sensation of Calabria was that there was not enough air to breathe.

The Italian mafia is an oppressive presence in Calabria. Now a sensational trial is putting that organisation to the test. Our reporter Megan Williams is here in 30 minutes with the story of the modern Italian mob and its deep roots. Also this morning, for peat's sake, why climate change experts are calling on gardeners to steer clear of peat moss. And later, the arrival of vaccines to fight covid-19 is an exciting development. Unless you fear needles.

SAMANTHA YAMMINE: I remember going for a blood draw once and I told the guy, hey, can I go to one of those rooms to lie down, because I tend to faint and he's like, no, no, you'll be fine. Don't worry. And I was like, OK, go for it. At that point I was so frustrated and lo and behold, I did faint on him.

MG: Coming up, how one scientist tackled her phobia of needles in this pandemic. We start, though, with a country shame and the hunt for accountability and action in memory of those who attended residential schools. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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Survivor recalls his time at Kamloops, B.C., residential school where remains of children found

Guests: Manny Jules, Carolyn Bennett

MG: Flags outside federal buildings across this country are at half mast this week, this after the Tk'emlups te Secwepemc First Nations said preliminary findings show the remains of more than 200 children are buried on the site of the former Kamloops Indian residential school. It is a tragedy. It is a reminder and it is a deeply painful moment. But for many, it also wasn't a surprise. Many children who went to residential schools in this country are still missing or unidentified, and their families left with no answers. The estimate is that as many as 6000 children died in those schools. But the federal government stopped recording child deaths in residential schools in 1920 because the chief medical officer found children were dying at such an alarming rate, even the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was unable to give a precise number of lives lost. Manny Jules is a former chief of Tk'emlups te Secwepemc. His parents attended the Kamloops Indian Residential School and he attended the school as a day student. Chief Jules, good morning.

MANNY JULES: Good morning, Matt.

MG: You've had a few days to absorb this awful news that we have learnt over the last couple of days. What are you thinking about now?

MJ: Well, you know, the first case always is shock. All of these little children, buried without any dignity at all. And then over the weekend, of course, my thoughts have been turned to what needs to happen next. And then, you know, you start thinking about all of the other things that are part of it, the hurt and anguish that all of the residential school survivors had. You know, I was watching Jagmeet Singh, the leader of the NDP, calling for an emergency debate, which I definitely do support. And then the first question from one of the reporters in Quebec was not even dealing with the children, but the opening of the border, which I thought was pretty insensitive.

MG: Your parents, as I mentioned, attended the Kamloops Indian Residential School. And I know this is difficult, so I appreciate you being willing to talk about this, but also only obviously say what you're comfortable in saying. What did they tell you about their experience at the school?

MJ: Well, my dad, he always told me that when I first went to the Indian school, I could speak my language. And at the end of it, of course, you know, he would be strapped and told that he couldn't speak his own language. My mother attended, you know, she heard all of the rumours that she was able to guess where the graves would have been. She even, you know, named a couple of other names of individuals in the school that she thought were abusive of young girls. And so, you know, she lived in fear at the residential school because of, you know, particularly girls were hunted and, of course, young guys as well. This wasn't just one gender. And my dad always talked about... because he had to work half a day, as all of the students did, and then, you know, get theoretically educated for the other half and he said that everyone was always hungry. And he always wondered why, because there was lots of eggs, lots of beef, lots of produce, but the kids didn't get it. And they could sure see the staff and everyone else eating well.

MG: And when you say that your mother heard those rumours that are now out in the open, she had heard the stories, because there had been stories the children who had died at the school were buried on the ground. She had heard those stories?

MJ: Everyone did. I heard them, you know, from my parents and I heard them from other residential school survivors. You know, you just know that this is the situation right across the country. And that's why my community's advocating that the federal government immediately enact the truth and reconciliation report in those Section 71 through 78, because those are the very sections that deal with missing children and burials and unmarked graves. Not one community is in a position to be able to afford to deal with these matters and know that this is out, you know, the mental anguish that my people are suffering right across the country is horrendous. People want to see solutions, concrete solutions. They don't want to hear platitudes they don't want to hear, let's talk about healing. This is time for government action.

MG: There are, as you mentioned, those six calls to action that come out of the TRC and they specifically address the issue of children who died and weren't accounted for. What do you make of what the government has done so far since the release of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission report?

MJ: This government has prided itself on partnering with First Nations, resolving a lot of issues. And on this particular file, the government has completely failed and they are accountable for it. This is on their watch. Action has to be taken immediately, in my view. You know, this is a criminal act bordering on genocide that was perpetrated on little children, defenceless children. And that's unconscionable.

MG: What do you want to hear from the church? There have been calls for the pope to respond to this latest discovery of the children's remains. And people have called in years past on the Catholic Church and on the pope to apologise. What do you want to hear from the Catholic Church?

MJ: Very clearly, Pope Francis, who happens to be from the new world and so knows very well coming from Argentina, the role of the conquistadors in the colonisation of the Americas, how they treated the indigenous people. So he should understand clearly that there should be an apology coming from the Catholic Church, you know, immediately. It isn't just simply turning the other cheek in this situation. You know, the Catholic Church has to bear responsibility. They've been negligent in their obligations. And it's all around the issue of liability. You know, what's fundamental and what's needed for us is to know that the church whose role in residential schools is unquestionable should come forth and apologise to First Nations.

MG: Beyond that, when you look at accountability, you referred to this as in some ways a criminal act. Should this be pursued as a criminal act?

MJ: Oh it has to be. That's why we're calling on forensic analysis done of those children. You know, we have to look at, you know, forensic documentation and we are treating it as such because we're making sure that the graves from this day forward are not disturbed. We want to make sure that there's forensic analysis so that we can determine the ages, the cause of death, and ultimately using DNA analysis so that we can reunite those little ones with their family. Because at the end of it, that has to happen because you can imagine the hurt and pain that every one of the families who've had unanswered questions about the whereabouts of their loved ones for many generations now, this is... you know, our residential school here in Kamloops, has been in operation since 1890. So we can imagine that some of these sites went back quite a number of years.

MG: This is not ancient history. This is within our lifetime. You attended as a day student there. How should Canadians think of the legacy of residential schools in the wake of what we have learnt more of in the last couple of days?

MJ: What you have to look at is how my community has dealt with the situation. We were offered in the 1970s when I was a young council member to have 70 thousand dollars to tear down the residential school. The council I was on at the time refused that. We said we want to be able to preserve this former residential school so that we can begin to use it as a government and educational centre, so that we can put new memories in our children, not ones that were perpetrated on all of the children that attended. And of course, there are lots of ghosts of the past, if you will, in the complex and people, you know, have memories about it. But a really good friend of mine, Dennis Saddleman, who I attended the Indian school with here, he was a student who had to live here, but he wrote an incredible poem called Monster, and he drove into Kamloops and he was looking at the residential school and he saw this monster and he just couldn't get it out of his head, what it what it had done to him. And then as he drove up to the residential school, he realised that all it was was bricks and mortar, that that building didn't perpetrate the sexual abuse and the physical abuse that he endured here. And he forgave the building. And that's what we've done and that's what other students have done. But what we want to be able to have is the justice that our people have been crying for, for a long time. And I believe the majority of Canadians have got to realise that this is real, that this is something that all of us have to address, not only survivors. And I am one, you know, I remember, we skipped out of mass, a few of us kids. And we hid in the bathroom because, you know, when we were young, we'd have to go to mass all the time. We'd have an hour of religious teachings before class began and there was a high mass. And so we said, oh, let's skip out. And we went into the bathroom to hide and play around. And of course, one of the brothers came in and, you know, pummelled us around the head. And I thought afterwards, like, you know, God, we must have been about eight or nine years old at this time. And all of us had bumps in our heads because you couldn't get out of the cubicle and the hardest thing was we were punched on the head. We weren't punched anywhere else. And of course, that's because there would be no evidence for it.

MG: Chief Jules, I'm sorry for what you and your family have been through, but I am grateful to have the opportunity to speak with you about what you're looking for now and what accountability means. Thank you very much.

MJ: Thank you very much, Matt.

MG: Take care.

MJ: Bye.

MG: Manny Jules is the former chief of Tk'emlups te Secwepemc. He attended the Kamloops Indian residential school as a day student. Carolyn Bennett is the federal minister of Crown Indigenous Relations. Minister, good morning. [pause] Carolyn Bennett, are you there?

CAROLYN BENNETT: I am. Good morning, Matt.

MG: Manny Jules says your government has failed. What is your message to him and to others across this country who would agree with him?

CB: Well, I think my message is that we are working very hard on this and we will need his help to make sure that as we go forward that people like Chief Jules and all the other people so seriously affected by this know that this is about concrete actions to address this terrible wrong. And I think, Matt, when we said... when the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation was set up and then we were able to give it the money in December 2016 to be able to have it ongoing work. And they were working on the registries and the deaths and burials and cemeteries and then in budget 2019, there's 33.8 Million dollars to do, as Chief Jules has said for those calls to action.

MG: Right, but despite that money being spent, I mean, the calls to action have not been advanced upon. I mean, your own progress report shows that the work is barely underway. The status of many of those recommendations is, we have begun discussions with various partners. Why aren't you further along in this work?

CB: Well, I think Matt, of the ones that are federal or shared we're I think with, working with the former commissioners that we are at 80 percent. But I think today we need to talk about the families and the survivors and the lost children. On that we have been engaging with the communities. And it was very clear when we met with the survivors groups and all of that, they want to lead this work, indigenous led, community based support the communities as they direct the work they want it survivor centric, culturally sensitive, and they are asking for the community research, the supports for research, archaeological expertise, as well as commemoration.

MG: But you've just heard the former chief say that he believes that your government has failed on enacting those recommendations. I mean, there were four questions that came out of the Truth and Reconciliation report. The fourth volume on missing children and unmarked burials. The questions were: how many children died? What did the students die from? Where are they buried and who went missing? Do you honestly believe that we are any closer now to knowing the answers to those questions?

CB: I think we are closer, I think because of the engagement we've done with the groups and we now know how they want to do the work and the work that they want to do, and they know that the support will be there from the federal government. I think it is truly important in terms of the commemoration piece and that we you know, thankfully, finally on Friday, the House of Commons passed bill C-5, which will give a National Day of Truth and Reconciliation, We'll be able to have even more resources for the commemoration and the history and the legacy. This is so painful. And I think that we need to do better to make sure people know that we really are working on this with the communities affected and that we will be able to help them as Charlene Bellerose said to me Thursday night, so that there's an opportunity for healing and coming together and how do we go forward, as you know, and as Manny said, that this was a knowing in that community for 20 years that they went to work because... and Tk'emlups is further ahead on their research than others. But everybody knows that this is just terrible what happened to these children.

MG: That research was done in the community. I mean, they were able to conduct the research with this ground penetrating radar search with the help of a provincial grant. Why isn't the federal government taking responsibility for that and taking the responsibility for that across the country at other former residential school sites?

CB: We have committed to doing that, Matt, and we are... and that all last year and even in spite of the pandemic, the kinds of consultations that have gone on as to... we needed to hear how they wanted to do that, if, you know.... And they were really clear, they wanted a community based. Each community, as you heard, from Chief Jules that even on what happens, the disposition of a residential school, some want it knocked down, some want it as a museum, some want it as a learning centre. Each community has its wishes and we are there to support them as they do what they need to do to really deal with this terrible loss and pain.

MG: There is a lot of frustration within those communities. And it's not just around this issue, it's around the broader context as well. We spoke with Cindy Blackstock yesterday. She's with the First Nations Caring Society. She said it is time for your government to change its behaviour. Take a listen.

CINDY BLACKSTOCK: If the government seriously owns its part in the deaths of these 215 children and the deaths and harms of many others, then it needs to stop doing what it's doing, which is apartheid service delivery on reserve, where people in some communities cannot even get a clean glass of water. And they need to drop their litigation against First Nations children and survivors of St. Anne's Residential school. St. Anne's residential school had an electric chair. Those poor children were shocked in the electric chair. And Canada is using our tax dollars and saying in the name of Canadians, we're going to fight against the survivors of that electric chair because we don't want to pay them.

MG: Minister Bennett, why is the Canadian government spending millions of dollars to continue to fight the survivors of the St. Anne's residential school in court?

CB: I think that, Matt, that we are doing everything we can. And I think the courts are doing.... We want to get on with the healing with those survivors....

MG: You'll be meeting Cindy Blackstock in court in a couple of weeks time. Why is the government fighting the survivors of that residential school in court?

CB: I'm... Matt, what we're doing is trying to get to the table to make sure that the court appointed independent assessor will see whether they got the support and the compensation they deserve and how we can help them get on with the healing. That's what we're doing. But I think Matt, the most important thing is what our government has done in terms of changing child and family services, how now communities have a legal right in C-92 to look after their own children and to bring their children home. [cross talk]

MG: Well, I think to a lot of people, the most important thing is deeds, but also what's behind those deeds? I mean, what is the message that it sends to the families of the kids that we're learning about in the last couple of days who were buried in these unmarked graves in Kamloops when the government is still fighting the survivors of other residential schools in court? What is the message that that sends, do you think?

CB: I think that... what... this is a unique situation that we feel, you know, is different because the survivors were paid and some and... but they need the healing. This is about a boat going forward in a good way. And it is about making sure that all communities know that this will never happen again because they have control over their lives and the child and family services for their own community, that an auntie can come and look after their children awhile. If the mom needs a bit of help, communities want the reforms because this millennium scoop and being able to think that settlers know how to look after children better is got to stop and that's what we're doing. So that in changing... taking this out from under the Indian Act, no longer in the jurisdiction of provinces and territories, giving communities the right to look after their own children and bring those youth home is the way forward.

MG: Minister, we'll have to leave it there. It's good to speak with you this morning. Appreciate your time. Thank you very much. Carolyn Bennett, the minister of Crown Indigenous Relations. For anyone who needs support right now, the Indian Residential School Survivors Society Emergency Crisis Line is available 24/7, and the number to call is 1-866-925-4419, again, 1-866-925-4419. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway. We're back in six minutes. Stay with us.

The Mafia from the mountains

Guest: Megan Williams

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Still to come, what are you afraid of, heights, spiders, water? How about needles? That last one poses a bit of a problem right now, what with the fastest way to ending this pandemic being a jab in the arm. Samatha Yammine is both a neuroscientist and someone who is afraid of needles. I'll talk to her about all the different ways she has dealt with her fear. It's coming up in about 30 minutes. But first, getting justice in southern Italy is no easy task.

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MG: Picture this: a low, sprawling, abandoned call centre surrounded by grassy fields, mountains off in the distance, the building has been transformed into a massive courthouse, complete with armed guards, regular bomb checks and courtrooms with cages. Inside, a trial involving 355 suspects and more than 900 witnesses has been underway since January. All of the defendants are members, suspected members or collaborators with one of the biggest crime organisations in the world, one that has tentacles that run throughout Europe, South and North America with a strong presence in Toronto and Montreal. It is called 'ndrangheta. It is deeply rooted in the southern Italian region of Calabria, where that massive courthouse is. CBC's Italy correspondent Megan Williams recently travelled to Calabria to talk with those who live there and are affected by and are fighting that crime group. And she joins me from Rome. Megan, good morning.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What a scene. I mean, more than a thousand defendants, lawyers, judges. It's quite the trial.

MW: It is even by the standards of Italy, which has a history of what they call here, "maxi-processi". These huge anti mafia maxi trials with dozens, sometimes hundreds of defendants. The most famous of those took place in the mid 1980s against the Sicilian Cosa Nostra crime group. And it constituted a major breakthrough both in proving that the Cosa Nostra mafia was, in fact an organised criminal group and not a kind of a loose band of crime families, which a lot of people were saying at the time, and also exposing its inner workings and structure. So this trial in the courthouse near the Calabrian town of Lamezia Terme is in that tradition.

MG: What are the charges in this case?

MW: Well, the defendants are charged with everything from Mafia association and collusion, to extortion, arms and drug trafficking and murder. Most were arrested in police raids in late 2019 in Calabria, but also in other parts of Italy and Europe. It was the culmination of this year's long investigation into a crime group in Calabria that had connections all throughout Europe

MG: And who's actually on trial?

MW: What's interesting about those arrested is that they go beyond the known or suspected 'ndranghetisti, these Mafia clan members and include a lot of professional people. So accountants, lawyers, politicians, even police chiefs. So along with the trial size, this is the biggest trial to ever take place in Calabria. The head prosecutor, Nicola Gratteri, whom we'll talk to shortly, says what makes this trial so important is how it exposes this new class of white collar mafia colluders. This is a clan based criminal organisation based in Calabria, but it really operates far and wide and in finance as well.

MG: I think, I mean, stereotypes persist. But I think when most people think of the Italian mafia, they think of the Godfather movies, they think of the scenes that they may have seen on television in The Sopranos. That's the Sicilian Mafia. How is this organisation and drug cartel different?

MW: Well, it has some similarities with the Sicilian Cosa Nostra. But to understand the differences, I want to take you to the courthouse in the capital of Calabria, a city called Catanzaro, to the world expert on the 'ndrangheta, who is the head prosecutor of the trial, a man named Nicola Gratteri.

[Sound Clip: thumping noise]

MG: What is that that we're listening to?

MW: So that's my mic going through the security conveyor belt at the courthouse, you know, picture a scene where guards are everywhere and the actual office where Gratteri works is a kind of sealed bunker with Bullet-Proof Doors and windows.

[Sound Clip: people speaking italian]

MW: And that's him sweeping into the room and bypassing all small talk and just kind of saying, OK, let's get into it. Let's sit down. What would you like to know?

MG: He's a busy guy.

MW: Yeah, he's been the anti mafia prosecutor for 30 odd years and has arrested hundreds of 'ndrangheta members, some he grew up with in Calabria. He said a lot of the people he's arrested, he played soccer barefoot in the local piazza. So this is his life. He lives under full time protection in a walled compound and hasn't been out in decades. At the end of our interview, I asked him if he could recommend a local trattoria for lunch and he had to call in his staff for suggestions because he doesn't even know what local restaurants there are, because he just never goes out for lunch or for a movie or anything.

MG: And yet you can go and see him.

MW: Yes. I mean, this is a prosecutor who makes himself very available to the media. That's in part to get word out about what they're working on and arrests that they've made, but also a way to protect himself. The idea that the better known you are, the less likely you'll be killed. At least that's the hope. I mean, he's all too aware what has happened to many other Mafia prosecutors, the two most famous in Italy, Giovanni Falcone and Paolo Borsellino, who were killed along with others in bombs in 1992 after they put hundreds of Sicilian mafiosi behind bars. So, you know, everybody knows the danger of taking on the mafia in Italy.

MG: Yeah. What did he tell you about this organisation?

MW: Well, to get a sense of the 'ndrangheta culture, he told me about the process by which young men become members, unlike other mafias, 'ndrangheta membership is based pretty much exclusively on blood ties and intermarriage. But it's also strengthened by a lot of rights and rituals.

NICOLA GRATTERI: [Italian to English translator] The first thing to know is that everyone outside 'ndrangheta are called contrasti, opposers. When a young man aspires to become during a kind of internship, he's called an honourable opposer. At the end of this trial period, there is a dinner where the young men pledge that from this moment on, only the 'ndrangheta counts that if need be, they will kill even their parents and siblings.

MG: And so how old are these young men when they enter?

MW: Well, most of them are teenagers as young as 14, Gratteri, told me. And then there are some who were actually born into it as babies. There's a kind of baptism where the local boss comes and he cuts the baby's fingernails and toenails, usually of the first born male, and the parents pledge his membership. Involved in these rituals are all sorts of references to special patron saints. There's a lot of overlap or, you know, polluting the Catholic Church would say with Catholic rituals, and that exists in all mafias. But it's especially strong in the 'ndrangheta.

MG: I mean, the blood ties clearly make this different from other mafias. But what else makes it stand out?

MW: Well, here's Gratteri explaining another key difference.

NICOLA GRATTERI: [Italian to English Translator] Compare that to other mafias, the 'ndrangheta is a tougher and more closed world with clans controlled top down. There may be colluders, but they matter little to the clans. And if they decide to collaborate with prosecutors, can tell us a little. It's a stratified world with different family clans who take care of their own business, but with an overarching structure where those who are below do not know what is happening up are much more controlled than other mafias.

MG: So that would make it, I would assume, much more difficult to get information about the organisation?

MW: Absolutely. He said that there in Calabria at least about 20,000 'ndranghetisti but there have only been a couple of hundred of so-called pentiti or State witnesses. These are clan members who will sort of turn on their clans and provide testimony to authorities, and that percentage is way lower than other crime groups.

MG: Nicola Gratteri has been at this for a long time, as you say, he's dedicated his whole life to fighting the 'ndrangheta. Does he think that this is a battle that can be won?

MW: Well, when you ask that question to anybody in Calabria, you don't get a straight answer because it's been such a long battle and there hasn't been a cultural change. I mean, Gratteri thinks there needs to be tougher laws, more deterrents for people to, you know, try and bribe people or extort people. But really, the key that everybody says to change in Calabria is a cultural shift. And one of the things that he does to help that is: he opens his door once a week so people from the public can come in and talk to him and they can report if they're being threatened or extorted. But part of that open house, if you will, is a way for him just to meet people and tell them, look, the state is here, we take you seriously. And even that represents a kind of a cultural change in Calabria.

MG: So they take them seriously. But I mean, how difficult is it to actually make arrests after hearing the complaints?

MW: Well, let me take you to the interior of Calabria where I went with this specialised squadron of Italian military Carabinieri police that are called cacciatori or hunters. They are these big tall guys in camouflage fatigues and red berets who patrol the outdoor area.

MG: Sounds really windy.

MW: Yeah, it's extremely windy where we ended up, we drove through these beautiful forested mountains with oak and pine and fir trees, I mean, Calabria is stunning and largely untouched. And the interior area is called Aspromonte, which literally translates into harsh mountain. So we drove up through the forest and stopped at this barren, rocky area with low shrubs. I mean, the wind is so strong that the shrubs are growing sideways. And it gave us this clear view down the valley to this 'ndrangheta controlled town called Plati.

MG: And so what are the cacciatori that you're with? What are they looking for?

MW: Well, until the early 90s, the authorities were cracking down mostly on the Sicilian mafia. And the 'ndrangheta's main illicit activity in this area was kidnapping. Here's the cacciatori commander Ivan D'Errico explaining how they've changed.

IVAN DERRICO: [Italian to english translator] Intimate knowledge of this region is our biggest weapon against the 'ndrangheta. After the kidnapping stopped in the 90s, when long prison sentences were introduced, the 'ndrangheta got into the drug trade and fugitives began hiding in the mountain hideouts and bunkers. Over the past 30 years, we've arrested 300 fugitives in this area and found drugs and weapons deposits too. This was very difficult because there are no maps or paths to follow.

MG: He mentioned bunkers there. Where are those?

MW: So the bunkers are in or near towns under apartments or houses. And the platoon of cacciatori that I spent the day with in the mountains, that night, we went down into the town of Plati. That is this town of about 2500 people, pretty much fully under the control of the 'ndrangheta. And they took us to look at one of the bunkers.

MG: What did it look like?

MW: Well, it was this kind of burnt out house, I mean, it had been stripped bare of everything, so it was dark and they were, you know, shining flashlights everywhere. They were looking for this stairwell that had hidden this secret passage into this bunker, which connected that house to a whole bunch of other houses in the area. And so we, you know, go up the stairs and then the guy shines the flashlight on this hidden passage. And we all sort of stopped in our tracks.

MG: Oh, what did you see?

MW: We saw a dead cat that had been killed. I won't describe how, that someone had put there across the entrance to the bunker. And the officer said it was a clear expression of somebody being very displeased that journalists were coming here. And, you know, they got kind of nervous and everybody said, OK, I think it's just I think we should get going.

MG: That must have been really unnerving to see such a thing.

[Sound Clip: Motorcycle engines revving]

MW: It was, it was disturbing. And then when we got out, all these teenage boys started circling the block and then they kind of gathered near the police cars and were revving their motors and calling out at us. It was uncomfortable.

MG: What were they doing, I mean, what was the point of that?

MW: Well, the Carabinieri said it's just, it's a way to show that they don't respect the police and that they wanted us gone. They wanted us to leave the town.

MG: And is that, I guess, more proof? We were talking earlier about how young it is that people get brought into this. That's more proof that kids get pulled into this lifestyle, very young.

MW: Very young, especially if you come from an area that's very 'ndrangheta dominated. And I saw that close up when I travelled to the east coast of Calabria to a town called Gioiosa Ionica, where a group of social workers and volunteers are trying to counteract the ‘ndrangheta culture by working with young kids and teenagers as well in this after school program.

[Sound Clip: Children playing]

MG: What are those kids doing?

MW: Well, this program has a soccer league, but it was raining that day. So the kids were indoors doing beading and being helped with their homework. The program is run by an association called Don Milani, and it was founded decades ago and it welcomes mostly kids of 'ndrangheta members or some kids at risk of going into the 'ndrangheta, older kids. Some are sent there by social services. A lot of the kids, maybe because their dad's in jail and their mom wants to offer them an alternative world view to what the 'ndrangheta offers. So there are all sorts of different reasons why the kids are there and they do all sorts of different activities. But with the underlying goal to show these kids a different way, a kind of legal way of being. The president is this 30 year old woman named Mariaelisa Giocondo, who grew up in the area. And when she was a teenager, her main goal was to get out and never return.

MARIAELISA GIOCONDO: [Italian to english translator] By the time I was 15 or so, I decided to leave Calabria. It's a decision a lot of young people here take. When you think about what your life would be if you stayed. Back then, there were a lot of shootings in Calabria, a lot of murders around my town. Twenty to twenty five people killed each year. I passed chalk outlines of bodies on my way to school.

MG: What a thing to see when you're growing up.

MW: Yeah, she says what really got to her was something a lot of people might not associate with organised crime. At least if you don't live in an area that's dominated by it, which is, lack of public infrastructure, there's an absence of good governance and a lot of corruption in public works. So you see unfinished bridges and roads and illegal garbage dumps. And Mariaelisa says growing up, there were no public buses or trains that are all over northern Italy,

[Sound Clip: Mariaelisa speaking in italian.]

MG: Asfissiante, what does that mean?

MW: Suffocating, she says. For her growing up, the sensation of Calabria was that there was not enough air to breathe.

MARIAELISA GIOCONDO: [Italian to english translator] In a nutshell, the Mafia culture is a culture of bullying where the bullies exert their power on every level of society. If I have to get that new ID or health card and I don't want to wait for hours at the town hall, I ask an insider to jump the queue. When I apply for a job, I don't get it because I am the best candidate, but because someone put me there.

[Sound Clip: Mariaelisa speaking italian]

MARIAELISA GIOCONDO: [translation con't] And when that someone is the 'ndrangheta, this becomes very, very problematic because I am now a pawn of the 'ndrangheta. Once I accept favours, I am no longer free to carry out my responsibilities as a public employee or to express my own opinions and ideas. Instead, I have to answer to them. That's how culture of power works.

MG: So she gets out and then goes back, why did she return?

MW: Well, she studied social work here in Rome for a number of years and then got connected with the Don Milani association when she was doing sort of an internship after university and realised that she really wanted to return to Calabria to help that next generation not feel suffocated the way that she did. And she says by teaching these kids about something as basic as, you know, recycling or cooperation or obeying laws, is planting seeds. And she understands that some will take, some won't. But she says, you know, you've just got to try and plant them.

MG: Did you get the sense that the seeds are taking, that things are changing there?

MW: I got conflicting answers to that question. And despite these kinds of grassroots efforts, Italy's anti mafia movement has been marked by what you could call a kind of hero complex. Calabrian sociologist Anna Sergi is an ‘ndrangheta expert who teaches at the University of Essex. And here's how she puts it.

ANNA SERGI: So we perceive mafia power as such a pervasive impossible to get rid of kind of secret power that we need heroes. That's the problem with Calabria at the moment. You need heroes to believe that you can be saved.

MW: I visited a small factory owner, Antonino Demasi, who has a factory that produces olive harvesting machines in a port town on the other side of Calabria called Gioia Tauro. And he helped me understand why having heroes is problematic. Now, six years ago an 'ndrangheta boss threatened his and his family's life in front of a judge. This is after he denounced the boss for extortion. And they've all been under 24/7 protection since. He brought out this thick folder of death threats. The factory has been fired at with a Kalashnikov, and he's considered a hero for denouncing the mafia. And he's gotten a lot of attention. But he says he and his family are very isolated.

ANTONINO D: [translator] Sometimes I think that media coverage of me as a hero is a way for Italians to clear their conscience, that by turning me into a hero implicitly conveys that ordinary people cannot do what I do, that being complicit with the Mafia, pretending not to see what they do and report them is somehow normal. Instead, we all know normal means abiding by the law.

MG: What is life like for him and his family given all of that?

MW: Well, one of his sons, Giuseppe, who was in his mid 20s, was actually there when I visited the factory. He studies engineering in northern Italy and he was back for a few days to help out his father with his bodyguards. And here's what he said.

GIUSEPPE: I lost a lot of friends for this reasons. When you enter in this program, you are infame because you don't quit the state.

MG: When you enter this program, you are infame. What does that mean?

MW: Infame means viall or villainous? It's a common 'ndrangheta insult that's kind of infiltrated the wider culture.

MG: So given what he's living through, I mean, does he see any hope or any change there?

MW: Unlike his dad, he actually does. And he says he perceives a shift in Calabria despite the fact that he's lost a lot of friends. He says he's gained other friends and that when he goes out to, say, the beach or whatever, young people now come up to him and his siblings and expressed support

GIUSEPPE: For example, like five, 10 years ago. If you have this... if you had this situation, you were alone, alone, completely alone. And now guys come to speak for, hello, how are you. It's changing, it's changing.

MW: You know, an important thing to understand about this region is that it's the poorest in Italy and youth unemployment is close to 50 percent. So it's a region where a lot of young people are leaving. But Giuseppe says he actually wants to move back to Calabria to be part of that cultural change that everybody I spoke to said is key. This trial is very important in going after a key clan in Calabria. But everybody says, along with the law enforcement and the success of this trial, there has to be a cultural shift in this region.

MG: Megan, this is fascinating. I really appreciate hearing the story from you. Thank you very much.

MG: Thank you, Matt.

MW: Megan Williams is the CBC's Italy correspondent. Well, coming up after your regional update:

SAMANTHA YAMMINE: When you say needle phobia? People are like, oh, but it's just a prick, because most people think it's really just about like the needle hurting. And it's not like they think that you're just afraid of pain. And it feels so dismissive.

MG: Not a fun phobia to have in normal times, even less fun in the midst of a global pandemic. What happens when you can't wait for your vaccine shot but you can't stand the needle? That's coming up in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Overcoming needle phobias to get a COVID-19 vaccine and U.K. moves to ban peat compost sales

Guests: Samantha Yammine, Merritt Turetsky, Jim Hole

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway, you're listening to The Current. We all have fears, big and little, rational and irrational, spiders and heights. But in the middle of a pandemic, when our best shot at getting back to normal is getting everyone a shot in the arm, having a fear of needles becomes an even more issue... even more of an issue than perhaps usual. This has been the case for Samantha Yammine. She's a scientist and has spent her career in a lab working with plenty of syringes. And Samantha is one of the 5 to 10 percent of adults with an extreme phobia of needles. Samantha Yammine, good morning.

SAMANTHA YAMMINE: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Did you get the shot?

SY: I did. I did.

MG: I want to talk about what it was like as much as you'll say, in a moment. But first, tell me about this anxiety. Do you know where your anxiety of needles comes from?

SY: I do. I can trace it back to a routine vaccination. When I was 12, I was really excited, it was at school. I ran to the front of the line because I knew then, as I still do now, that vaccines are amazing. And I ran to the front of the line, got my vaccine and unfortunately I fainted. And ever since I fainted with every needle.I fainted generally just at the doctor's office and in other settings, too and so, there's just so many layers to the anxiety. It's not really about the prick itself. It's about the experiences I've had in those types of settings.

MG: Tell me more about that. I mean, how would you describe the anxiety that you have around those settings?

SY: I think it's because I had this... you know, fainting is not dangerous in the long term, but it can be really traumatic in that moment. And it's just happened so many times. And I would warn my health care providers, you know, this is going to happen or whoever is giving me the vaccine and I often was met with a lack of compassion or like, you'll be fine, don't worry, you'll barely feel it. And because I think I had that concern dismissed so much, I just never really felt comfortable and the anxiety just built and anxiety actually can make fainting more likely. And so there's just this whole thing I have now around it because I've had it dismissed so much in the past. So now I really dread it, it was really hard, even though I really wanted to be vaccinated. It was really, really hard that day for me to get to the clinic, even though I knew I would. But it's very debilitating. I was sitting on the couch like crying, even though I knew that I was so lucky to be getting this life saving medicine.

MG: And a part of that goes back to, as you said, how that anxiety was not treated so much, but just how it was received. I mean, is that what people said to you is, it'll be fine don't worry about it?

SY: Yeah, I remember going for a blood draw once at...not at my doctor's office, one of those, you know, clinics you go to. And I told the guy, hey, can I go to one of those rooms to lie down because I tend to faint? And he's like, no, no, you'll be fine, don't worry. And I was like, OK, go for it. At that point, I was so frustrated and lo and behold, I did faint on him and it's just really... and I know this experience of not feeling heard or listened to is a really common one a lot of people face. And in part because of that, a lot of people who share this anxiety and needle phobia are really embarrassed by it. I have had countless people reach out since I shared my story, saying, like, I've been so embarrassed and ashamed because I want to be vaccinated, but I'm terrified about the process of getting vaccinated and no one should feel ashamed about things that they can't control happening in their body and something that there's nothing to be ashamed of, which is just a reaction that you have that's very, you know, fairly common.

MG: So tell me more about this. You're getting set to go for the covid vaccine. And you say you were sitting on the couch kind of crying for a couple of days.

SY: Yeah. And also just to remind folks, like I've spent the last six months reading about vaccines, talking about the science of vaccines...

MG: On this very program!

SY: On this programme. I do love vaccines. But when I knew that my appointment was coming up, I was really just frozen. I would go from panic to frozen states, just dreading what would happen, how I would be treated, knowing that I would be in that spot, ready to get my vaccine. And like, I couldn't leave. And I'd have to go through that and just feeling very trapped and frustrated because I felt that way.

MG: Are you all right to talk about the day?

SY: I'm great to talk about it now.

MG: OK.

SY: Thank you.

MG: So what happened on that day?

SY: I had booked at an accessibility clinic, which I would encourage people to look out for or even just know that there are accommodations available. But so I had... that day... actually it started the night before my partner and I went and visited where we'd be going, just to get used to the drive, because I knew on the way, the drive there I'd be really anxious. So we got used to the drive, walked around the setting, just outside the building. So that was a really important practise. Then that day I just tried to do things that made me happy. I was able to take the day off work and just sit in the sun and go for walks and try to relax. I did cry a bunch. I'm not going to lie. And I tried to have all my favourite foods that calm and soothe me. I ended up pushing my appointment back a bit and they were able to accommodate that instead of going in the afternoon. I ended up going in the evening because I just needed more time. I wasn't ready and I put some numbing cream an hour before my appointment and just forced myself to get into the car, my partner drove me and fortunately he was able to do all of my check in and I got to just pace around outside listening to music while he checked me in and answered all the questions. I didn't really want to be grilled about anything when I was already feeling anxious. I had my music on the whole time. I didn't talk to anyone until it was done, at my request.

MG: And this is an accessibility clinic. What is that?

SY: Yeah. So the city of Toronto has an accessibility task force for vaccines and they ran two clinics in May for folks with any type of disability. So whether it's anxiety like me or any mental health situation or developmental disability, physical disability, anyone with a disability could go to these clinics. I'm not sure if they're going to have more. But CAMH is another place that offers these types of accommodations. And most pop ups and massvax sites also have accommodations. Just can't request them until you get there.

MG: And that setting made you feel more comfortable?

SY: They were so nice. These were the nicest people I've ever interacted with. No one said anything, no one made fun of me or dismiss me as they did in the past. They were like, yeah, whatever you want. Like they were so great. And so many people have had that same experience. I've talked to hundreds of people, who've also said the same thing. This was the best vaccination experience I've ever had. Everyone was so nice.

MG: And the moment arrives and what happens?

SY: I get to go into a curtained off area. So it's a little bit private. I was given time to lay down and get comfortable, first alone, just with my partner, he called in the nurse, when I'm ready. My eyes are shut, my music is playing, my arm's out, didn't look at the nurse even. She does it really quickly. It was very fast. I felt it, but it was fine, it was quick and when it's done and I realized I didn't faint, which was amazing. It's the first time I haven't fainted in... I don't even remember how long when getting a needle. And it's done and then I feel amazing. I was hysterically laughing and smiling so big. I finally talked to the nurse and said, thank you, I'm sorry I ignored you. And she said no problem. And it was the best feeling I've had in a long time. Honestly, it was great.

MG: What was the music you were listening to? What was the song that was on in your head?

SY: I'm glad you asked. It was Beyonce and Nicki Minaj's version of Flawless. And I was rapping Beyonce's words when it happened so that... you can do anything when you're listening to that song.

MG: I mentioned at the beginning that as many as 10 percent of people have this phobia. And I mean, given that, why is it that you think we don't talk about this more?

SY: Honestly, I don't, I don't know. I think because what happens when you say needle phobia is people are like, oh, but it's just a prick. It's so quick. And I think that's because most people think it's really just about like the needle hurting. And it's not like I've done a lot of painful things in my life. The pain is not an issue. I have tons of piercings, whatever, like it's not a big deal, but really it's the anxiety of the whole experience. But I think because people's first reaction when you tell them is like they think that you're just afraid of pain and it feels so... you feel so like it's very dismissive when someone responds in that way. So it makes you not want to talk about it.

MG: Just finally, what would you say to somebody who shares that phobia, who hasn't been able to speak publicly about it? And to your point, I mean, maybe hasn't had a good experience with a healthcare provider that understands where they're coming from.

SY: Your feelings are valid. Don't be ashamed about it. I encourage you to get support from a therapist, if you can, or some friends if you can. There's something called EMDR therapy, which can be incredibly helpful. And when it comes time for your vaccine appointment, know that you have every right to be accommodated. Whatever you need to make that experience more comfortable, think about it, write a list and get someone there to help you advocate to get it. And I think you'll be surprised at how willing everyone is to make sure that this is going to be a great experience for you.

MG: Samantha, I'm really glad that you got the vaccination, but I'm also really, really glad that you were willing to speak out about this. It's incredibly important and I appreciate you doing that. Thank you.

SY: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

MG: Samantha Yammine is a neuroscientist and science communicator in Toronto. We'd love to hear your reaction to this. Does her story sound familiar? You can email us thecurrent@cbc.ca.

[Music: upbeat pop instrumental]

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One, my name is Matt Galloway.

MALE VOICE: All right, since so many of you have asked. Here is the ratio to my mom's soil mix. First one, big bag of topsoil, then you add peat moss, this pack says one gallon it so, three of these. Last four handfuls of Epsom salts and you just mix evenly.

MG: It's a popular recipe on TikTok, not for anything you eat, but for soil, gardening soil, for planting your backyard vegetables. You may have heard one component of that recipe was peat moss, but you may want to think twice about actually using peat moss. In Britain, the use of peat moss will soon be illegal. Last month, the UK government announced that the sales of peat to gardeners will be banned by the year 2024. Joining me now to explain why is Merritt Turetsky, climate scientist, also known rather fabulously as the Queen of Peat on Twitter. Merritt, good morning.

MERRITT TURETSKY: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Why is the UK government banning sales of peat to gardeners?

MT: Well, you know, the UK has a long history of peatland use, of course peatlands used to be a major land cover in places like Ireland and Scotland and England, but because of hundreds of years of peat use for fuel, for gardening products, for a variety of uses, less than one percent of national peatlands remain in places like Scotland. So this was a real crisis for the UK and for England. And policy is responding. Peatlands are wondrous ecosystems. They protect our climate. They accumulate carbon from the atmosphere, serving a very, very important role. They also protect so many endangered species, critical species. So in places like the UK, peat protection is absolutely critical.

MG: I think a lot of people go to the garden centre and they see those big bags of peat moss. What exactly is it? I mean, for people who may not have cracked the bag open, what is peat moss?

MT: And people who may have cracked the bag open may not even understand where that peat comes from. [audio cuts out] That material is ground up magnum peat moss. It's made out of really important plants that thrive in our peatlands that blanket a good chunk of Canada. We are so lucky to have peatlands remaining in Canada and I would like it to stay that way. So ground peat is literally extracted or harvested from peatlands that are drained and essentially functionally destroyed for harvesting this material. And then it's shipped all across the country. It's also shipped across North America. So that peat, which is really, you know, an excellent product for amending our garden soils. And I am a gardener myself. Any gardener who cares about soil is a friend of mine. But we must recognise that when you rip open that bag, we are using natural material from a very precious ecosystem and that precious ecosystem and all the plants that thrive in it are destroyed over the making of that bag. So that's just something to consider when we're deciding what products to use and to purchase, we've got that consumer choice.

MG: You also mentioned its role as a carbon sink. I mean, I read somewhere that the UK peatlands store upwards of, what, three times as much carbon as the forests in the UK.

MT: And that number is even greater here in Canada. Our data shows that, again, peatlands are carbon and climate change. They store sometimes [audio cut out] and 20 times more carbon. That's carbon in soils, which is really a legacy old carbon. That's also carbon in vegetation and plants, you know, 10 to 20 times more than any grassland or agricultural system or even a forest. So peatlands every year are sucking carbon out of the atmosphere and then hanging on to that carbon in, you know, wet saturated soils. And that's why they’re so tremendously important to long term carbon storage. And we really want to keep that carbon in the ground and out of the atmosphere.

MG: I was going to say, what happens when the carbon... to that carbon that's stored in the peat, when we dig it up and we put it in the bag and then we take it out of the bag and put it into our garden?

MT: I personally consider that an emission of carbon right back to the atmosphere because eventually, you know, all the carbon in that bag material, of course, the extraction has a carbon footprint. The shipping has a carbon footprint. But the material itself, when you're lovingly and tenderly incorporating it into your garden soil, eventually that carbon also gets decomposed and winds up back in the atmosphere.

MG: All right, Merritt, stay on the line with us. I want to bring in Jim Hole to our conversation. He is a certified horticulturalist, worked for 30 years in the greenhouse business. And if you are in Edmonton, you've probably heard Jim on CBC Radio. He is the go to gardening guru. Jim, good morning.

JIM HOLE: Morning, Matt.

MG: I have questions about peat, including what is it about peat that makes it so good for growing plants?

JH: Well, you know, I've used it for so many years. It is a nice lightweight, what we call substrate. It has what they call a high cut on exchange capacitor, which just means it hangs on to nutrients.

MG: OK.

JH: So when you have it in the container, you apply your fertiliser, compost with it, you're going to have that material, hang on to the nutrients, release the nutrients to the plants. It's great. Is typically combined with something called per lightup's kind of a heated rock that is pop by popcorn. You had a bit of lime to it because Sagna peat is quite acidic. Yeah, it's kind of the mainstay of potting soils right across North America and beyond. So it's a great material and it grows great plants. I mean, if you look at it, you put it into big containers, you put in the hanging basket. It has all those great things that I mentioned and it's lighter weight. So it's been the mainstay of gardeners for a long, long time.

MG: Not just home gardeners. Right. I mean, I know that it's used more broadly in the gardening industry as a whole.

JH: Oh, I mean, if I look back... as a kid, I started up mixing peat moss with garden soil and kind of tilling it, and then we blended into our containers. As time went on, we got a big mixer that had... based on peat moss and we would put that into big pots. So I hate to say how many tons of peat moss over the years, but it's a lot.

MG: When did you start to hear some of the concerns around peat moss and have you seen a change in the industry in terms of those concerns?

JH: Absolutely. I first really started hearing about it... I was speaking in England at a greenhouse conference and that's the first time I heard that, you know, peat moss has all these other issues surrounding it as far as, you know, the ecology. And, you know, it didn't really reach over to Canada, and to, you know, to the States because we got lots here. So nobody really thought about it too much. But now what I'm seeing is gardeners questioning whether peat moss is the right material. And I've seen quite a switch to a product called coconut coir, which is the material in the husk of the coconut, sort of the waste material. Now I see professional growers using it quite a bit. So that has been quite a transition to that material. I'm seeing a further transition to stuff called charged carbon, which is essentially a material like it comes from bamboo or comes from other what we call a certain feedstock. Instead of burning the feedstock, you heat it through a treatment called pyrolysis. You're left with the carbon skeleton that now you can blend that into your soils and it hangs on to nutrients as well. So it's a bit more expensive. It's coming on. Again, it's a slow transition, but it's definitely out there.

MG: We asked Paul Short, who is the president of the Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss Association, about the environmental concerns we've been talking about when it comes to their products. He said the industry has invested a lot in restoring peatlands after harvest. Take a listen to Paul Short.

PAUL SHORT: We now as a policy and implemented as best practices by our industry. Can return post harvest peatland where the Sphinx of Carbon begins within the 10 to 15 year time after restoration, and then we begin to see the return of the biodiversity and the hydrological functioning and the other ecosystem, goods and services within a 25 to 30 year time frame.

MG: Merritt Turetsky, what do you think? Are those restoration efforts enough to ameliorate some of the concerns that you might have?

MT: Well, I do have tremendous respect for the industry and there are a number of wonderful Canadian researchers and scientists working on peatland restoration. I do not like to use that word restoration after peat harvesting. I think they can rehabilitate these lands back to something functional, but it will take hundreds and hundreds of years to truly restore peatlands after major disturbance like harvesting. It's not just back to the function of a carbon sink. It's also, you know, we want these peatlands to be hosting our carnivorous species, beautiful fundus and pitcher plants, bagno mosses. All of these iconic and incredible plants that thrive in mature peatlands are being destroyed so that gardeners can tend to their cultivated plants. And I question the logic of that. But I do think that best practices here in Canada are a great start.

MG: Do we just have to stop? I mean, is that it? Like the UK says, it's going to ban the sale of peat to gardeners by 2024? Is that what needs to be done? Just put the brakes on this completely?

MT: Well, personally, and, you know, Jim can weigh in with his opinion. I think, you know, what we're seeing in the UK is 100 years from now where Canada could be if we do not be more thoughtful and conscientious about peat use. We're not there yet, but we are on that trajectory of just increasingly impacting our peatlands. It's not just peat used for horticulture. We have seismic lines, oil and gas infrastructure, fire management, infrastructure running through our peatlands. So we're really talking about cumulative disturbances to Canadian peatlands. And it's becoming a lot. I would argue one step forward is just every gardener out there think twice about buying that low cost bag of peat. Think again. Think about your options. And if we just place more options in front of people, then we may be in a much better situation than what UK has faced.

MG: Jim Hole, do those options that you mentioned, the coconut and the charged carbon do they work as well as peat moss?

JH: They do, you have to change your management practices a bit. So you have to look at something like charged carbon, great material again, permanently sequestered carbon. It'll break down physically, but it is a bit more... the porosity is higher. So you have to kind of watch the water. I think what I'm doing is I've transitioned by incorporating that charged carbon into my existing peat moss containers, some slowly weaning myself off it. I compost in the backyard as well. Like I said, I have used the coconut coir a bit before it's pretty darn good, I'm going to have other issues surrounding that, too. But I think it's more or less the gardeners embracing the idea of a bit of change. Looking at some alternatives. Composting, great, if you got the space super, it's not that hard. I think some people think it's really challenging. I don't think it is. And you've got a source of nutrients there, too. So it is something to look at and something I think we can transition away from to a great degree. Not entirely. I mean, professional growers still need the peat moss is going to be around for a while. But again, I think we're on the right track.

MG: How's the garden look this year, Jim?

JH: Pretty good. We had snow a couple of weeks ago, but my peas are looking great. My tomatoes are loving the heat that's coming on now.

MG: And Merritt, your garden is ok?

MT: It's great. Thank you. We got to go peat free.

MG: It's great to speak with you both about this. A lot of talk about peat moss. And maybe people have perhaps have not thought as much about what was inside that big bulky bag. Thank you both for being here.

JH: Thanks, Matt.

MT: Thank you very much.

MG: Merritt Touretsky, climate scientist, ecologist and expert on peat. Jim Hole, certified horticulturist who has worked for thirty years in the greenhouse industry. Tomorrow, the 2nd of June is World Peatlands Day. What a better opportunity than now to think about the soil and what you are using to grow your fruits and veggies in the backyard. That's it for The Current for this first of June. Coming up next on CBC Radio One, it's Q. Tom Power will be speaking with Michelle Goode, winner of the Governor General's Literary Award for her debut novel, Five Little Indians. Michelle Goode spent years working as a lawyer for survivors of residential schools, and she will speak with Tom from her office. Her office is on the grounds of a former Kamloops residential school. That conversation coming up in just a few moments on CBC Radio One. We were speaking earlier with Samantha Yammine, neuroscientist, needle phobe, and she said that she listened to one piece of music to get herself hyped up for her covid-19 vaccine. That piece of music was by Beyonce. So if you need a little motivation to get your shot, this is for you. It's Flawless. I'm Matt Galloway thanks for listening to The Current. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

Unidentified: [Music: Flawless by Beyonce]

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