Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2019

The Current Transcript for June 25, 2019

Host: Megan Williams

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: We have no interest in owning or managing the data collected in this neighborhood. We think there really needs to be a government sanctioned independent urban data trust that makes those decisions and really works on protecting people's privacy.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: That's Jesse Shapins of the innovative and controversial Sidewalk Labs development plan for a long neglected part of Toronto's downtown waterfront. The Google sister company insists all the data it will be collecting on those who live and move through its proposed high tech neighbourhood will be in safe hands. But critics aren't buying it and they're questioning the very premise that a private company can be trusted with creating a public neighbourhood. We'll hear from one who calls Sidewalk Labs' master plan released yesterday a snow job and more from Jesse Shapins who insists the plan is a blueprint for future urban spaces. Then getting a grip on plastic.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Once I learned about the plastic pollution crisis I just felt compelled to do something about it. I would say I produced maybe about a cup of trash per week. I mean it can fit in my hand.

MW: One woman's personal and radical overhaul of her shopping life to rid it of waste. That's in half an hour. After that.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Everybody in the room was saying is there a serial killer? And many of the people I talked to, officers were saying is there a serial killer and was he in the room with us?

MW: That's Nikki Ward, a transgender woman advocate and community activists from the podcast, CBC Uncover: The Village. You'll hear part two of The Village later on the show as we continue our summer long featuring of the best of CBC podcasts. I'm Megan Williams and this is the summer edition of The Current.

Sidewalk Labs' $1.3B plan for Toronto's waterfront is bad for democracy, critic says

Guests: Bianca Wylie, Jesse Shapins

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: So where we are standing right now would actually be literally as if we were standing in the inner harbor of Lake Ontario. And what we're looking at now is going up into Parliament slip and so this really becomes the heart of this new neighborhood. You have a newly naturalized shoreline.

MW: The new neighborhood he's referring to is Quayside, the future crown jewel of Sidewalk Labs. That's a high tech urban design company owned by Google's parent company Alphabet. Sidewalk Labs says Quayside will be a cutting edge residential and commercial hub that will reinvigorate a downtrodden stretch of Toronto's waterfront. The company also says that 40 per cent of the project's residential units will be reserved for affordable housing. The man you heard mapping out the future project was Sidewalk Labs' Jesse Shapins.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: It's Jesse Shapins and I'm the director of public realm here at Sidewalk Labs.

MW: Mr. Shapins gave two of our producers a tour of Sidewalk Labs model for Quayside yesterday, the same day the company released its 1500 page blueprint for the development. What makes Quayside so innovative and controversial is how intertwined one company's technology is in the neighborhood's design and functionality. The five hectare site has bike lanes that sync up with traffic lights to keep cyclists moving along. Its buildings feature a storm water system that collects rainfall on rooftops and that follows weather forecasts to distribute the rooftop water. It even has a collection hub for automated package delivery in the neighborhood to cut back on traffic and make streets safer.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: The edge of the site would be something called an urban consolidation center. So all the package deliveries in the neighborhood would be concentrated here and then sorted onto robotics smart containers that would then bring those packages through underground tunnels in elevators to all the buildings across the neighborhood. Right now we have a lot of trucks that are you know for packages that are being delivered to buildings that are often kind of blocking curbside spaces making it more dangerous for cyclists. This is really reducing that truck traffic, so that the streets are safer.

MW: But critics say all that innovative technology comes with a price. The biggest: privacy. That's because Quayside will be constantly collecting data throughout the neighbourhood to keep improving and updating its systems. In a few minutes I'll speak with Jesse Shapins and ask him about those concerns, but first Bianca Wylie is the co-founder of Tech Reset Canada. She's also a senior fellow at the Centre for International Governments Innovation in the Global Economy Program. She's with me in our Toronto studio. Good morning.

BIANCA WYLIE: Good morning.

MW: So what are you thinking as you hear the plan Jesse Shapins is outlining for Quayside?

BIANCA WYLIE: Well I'm thinking about one thing and I'd actually like to reorganize what the biggest price or the biggest concern is here. It's not privacy, it's our democracy. And so what I'm thinking about when I'm listening to the outline of the plan is you know there's all these bits and pieces, but the question is not about you know the component parts, it's at what cost and for what reason is a corporation becoming a broker between people and their governments in terms of designing how we live?

MW: And what are your concerns about that cost and what do you think is the risk of something like this going into a city neighbourhood?

BIANCA WYLIE: Well I think it's this process is reflective of corporate capture of both democratic process and regulatory process. And I want to remind people that democracy doesn't die with a bang it doesn't happen in one big event what happens is power. People's power erodes and once you're putting decisions like this this is a very robust proposal. This is not something where people said here's one thing we need to you know build a certain you know build a building or make a solution for garbage pickup or even really design like a streetscape or something like that a lot of which occurs already. We're talking about fundamental elements of finance we're talking about governance. We're talking about new regulatory authority putting this all into one package and then thinking that those component parts of the discussion when the discussion is actually why are we ceding power to a corporation to define how we live our lives. There's a lot in there to me and I mean that's that's a fundamental question. And so the tradeoff there is control and power and sovereignty frankly.

MW: Now there's you know the City of Toronto and the other levels of governance involved in this, which is provincial and federal there. They're saying they're not handing over power completely to a private company. They have oversight of this. There's a consultation process kicking off now. Are those not enough safeguards to go in for this?

BIANCA WYLIE: No they're not because you have to my mind look at the time scale of history and look at the last 200 years and the last 20 years. An dthe last 20 years as you know Google is 20 years old and what Google personifies is a lawlessness. And what they do is they do what they want and then everybody is left behind to pick up and clean and mitigate and defend. And so yes we have regulatory process. Yes we have government but what we know historically and so this is pattern behavior. This is not new. Well we have historically is is a pattern of of a company doing what it wants and then the rest of society globally right now trying to figure out what to do about that. And so bringing that type of approach to our democracy and to our governance and putting people on the defense. Why why would we be shaping our future on the defensive to that kind of power. And that's another element that you know that matters with this company is sheer size. And if you look at this plan a lot of the reasons that people may be encouraged to look at it more is because of how much money is on the table how many you know and how many pieces of this relate to economic development. And you start to get into conversations that are really about issues that government should be directing and I just want to end by saying economic development is a policy that governments define. Again why do we have a corporation dictating that policy for the people of this city. Why why the city does economic development so does the province and the federal governments. Why are we seeding all of these positions to one company?

MW: Now the company is doing innovative things as we've heard there and you know handling everything from garbage disposal to bike lanes, reducing energy consumption, providing affordable housing, which the city of Toronto desperately needs. Aren't those all features that the city can do with and you know this seems to be a sort of integrated way to at least propose a model.

BIANCA WYLIE: Those features independently, a lot of them make sense, certainly. But at what cost? What you see here with the response to this proposal is a company that decided and this is a big opportunity. Waterfront Toronto has a long history and a reputation and it does good work and it put something forward and it said hey this is an opportunity what would you like to do? And the way that this company responded was by going way outside of what was asked of it. It went into coloring outside of the lines. I mean are asking answering questions that weren't asked of it. You're talking about the LRT proposal as well that the scope of the project or any master plan. Yeah but just just real estate scope and I mean influence over the Port Lands and the sort of trying to assert power and control there. And the problem with this stuff is at what cost. Right. If if if someone wants to tell me that having bike lanes and things that we can do out that most urban planners would of course do that that the tradeoff discussion here is that we're ceding power and sovereignty to a corporation. I think you can't look at these things independent of the frame. And I think it's really critical to remember that that that the structure of this because what Sidewalk Labs can say is what we were asked to do all of this. It's like well the thing is we're getting into the gray of yes you were asked to do some of these things. Sure but the way there's a lot to be said about the way in which the company responded It went way outside the lines and now it appears to be sort of running around Waterfront Toronto is who they're supposed to be working with and what you can feel now is an effort to run an end game here to go past them go direct to governments go direct to the public and do this thing that tech companies have always done which is say oh we like this governments why can't we do it. Why what now. Now you're going to be the heavy riot. And so this is this is a very psychological maneuver of power. And so for me when I hear you say those things of course those things are nice but they can't be taken outside of the frame and the offs and that at what cost? We can do all of these things, no problem. They don't have to be done in this particular context and frame.

MW: Now you're also concerned about data privacy. Can you tell me what those concerns are?

BIANCA WYLIE: They're fundamentally that we as a society again to bring us back to the 20 year timescale we have slid into a quasi surveillance state now so the status quo of our lives under you know what. What sort of regulatory policies we have now mean that a lot of people aren't fully aware of what's going on with data collection and so that is not something that Sidewalk Labs brought here. That is a pre-existing condition. And so my concern with what's happening here is that in privacy is sort of the word people are grabbing it because it's the one we all know the word we need to be talking about is power and control. And the thing is and marketization. Right because we have an Internet right now it's not working very well. And what this project seeks to do is transpose something that is broken that most people online are trying to figure out all people all around the world again we know the Internet is not working for us we want to build something else. Why in the world at this point in time would we transpose those problems into our physical spaces and start to create markets out of all that data collection. That's a big question. We don't slide into that without discussion.

MW: OK. Now we just have a few seconds left, but is there anything that can save this project in your mind? Anything you saw in the master plan that reassured you or should the whole thing be scrapped?

BIANCA WYLIE: The whole thing should be scrapped.

MW: OK. Alright. Thanks very much.

BIANCA WYLIE: Thanks for having me.

MW: Bianca Wylie is the co-founder of Tech Reset Canada. She's also the senior fellow at the Centre for International Governments Innovation in the Global Economy Program. She was with me in our Toronto studio. As I mentioned earlier, Jesse Shapins is the director of public realm at Sidewalk Labs and he joins me here in the studio in Toronto. Hello.

JESSE SHAPINS: Hello, hello.

MW: I have lots to ask you about, but first what is a director of public realm?

JESSE SHAPINS: So I work on all the shared spaces of the community. So the public realm is really the spaces that are the streets, the parks, the plazas, the ground floor spaces. It's all the things that bring people together and build all that human connection that really makes the neighbourhoods that we love.

OK. So we've just heard some serious concerns about Sidewalk Labs Quayside project. How will your company make sure this is actually a good thing for Toronto and not just the company?

JESSE SHAPINS: So I'd like to to comment on a couple of things that Bianca said. First and foremost I think I have great respect for her and the kind of conversation that she's really helped foster around this project. And I think some of the things that I think are really important for everybody to understand is you know she talks about this 20 years and that this is sort of you know we've had this 20 years of tech companies and their relationship to government and that this is sort of an extension of that history. I actually think this is actually a project and an approach that actually is a significant departure. I mean it's important to understand that this is a company that was founded by people who worked extensively as lifelong public servants have worked extensively in government and his passion is about how do we make cities better for people and how can technology play a role in that and how do we actually strengthen governance in terms of the role that technology plays in our city. So I think one thing that is important to understand is in no way shape or form is the proposal here to cede power and cede governance to a private company in many ways what this is looking to do and this is what Waterfront Toronto set out to do in the original RFP is how do we actually as a civil society as a public sector think about ways to innovate on how we actually govern and how we build a new kind of democratic framework that works with the public sector the private sector and civil society together. And that's really what this proposal is about is thinking about those things and that's what we were invited for the RFP to consider and I think has been worked through quite productively with the City of Toronto over the past two years.

MW: But do you not understand people's concerns that you know a private company designing a whole neighborhood raises a lot of you know worries about motivation for certain features. I mean the end game for your company obviously is to sell the technology.

JESSE SHAPINS: So I absolutely understand the concerns and I think again these are really important conversations for our city to be having. The endgame for us as a company is in part technology. I think in many ways what we are interested in here as well is actually demonstrating a different form of development model. Working with a local development community here to demonstrate how we can actually use technology broadly and I think what's really important.

MW: And sell it to other consumers, other cities, no?

JESSE SHAPINS: Certainly. And I think what's important understand here is when we talk about technology it's not just things that involve traditional digital technology as we might think about it. So one of the things that's proposed in this project is that all the buildings would be built out of mass timber. That means using a new construction process that uses tall timber beams that are manufactured wood that can take on the structural properties of steel. People might ask why in the world would a company connected to Google be interested in wood right. These things seem disconnected. So the reason that they matter is this is a different way of actually approaching the whole supply chain and there's a lot of technology involved in that whole supply chain. So it's actually sensors that understand and contract the provenance of the wood. So we understand that it's coming from truly certified forests. It's actually how the wood is precisely cut using robotics at an offsite factory. It's then managing the logistics of how that would gets onto site and the building is assembled that whole process is far more sustainable and results in 30 percent reduction of time and construction. That reduction of time contributes then to cost savings which can then be put into affordable housing.

MW: Okay. I want to ask you though about one of the big concerns, which is data collection. One person who has raised concerns about how Sidewalk Labs will be collecting data is former Ontario privacy commissioner Ann Cavoukian. She's now working with Waterfront Toronto assisting the group with privacy issues related to their envisioned smart city. She worries about the company's protocols for anonymizing the information. Listen to this.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: If you de-identify all the data at source then you free yourself of the privacy concerns associated with tracking personally identifiable data. Originally Sidewalk Labs was all for that. It was with the creation of the civic data trust that they said look there'll be multiple parties who will participate on this. We will encourage them to de-identify data at source, but we can't promise it. And that's where things fall apart because if you make this a choice, it's not going to happen. Personal data is a treasure trove. That's what everybody wants. We have to make this. We have to lay down the law that you can't do this.

MW: So she's talking about the initial promise from what I understand of making the data anonymous right when it arrived and it seems in the master plan you're backing away from this. Why hasn't data collection be anonymized at the earliest possible moment?

JESSE SHAPINS: So I wanted to talk about this. This is a great topic of conversation. So what we committed to and Ann highlighted there and we have very strongly continued to commit to in our proposal is de-identifying and anonymizing all data collection in this neighbourhood. What we also put forward is a proposal for an independent government sanctioned body to manage all the data collection in this neighbourhood. And I think what's important understand, this is actually precisely get into what some of the comments that Bianca was raising, which is what this is a proposal to do is actually strengthen public governance. That's what's hard for people I think sometimes I understand is it's very different than how maybe tech companies have engaged with the public sector in the past. We're asking for regulation. We're asking for a new body to be established to establish how data should be used and to protect the public interest in that and have a democratic body do that. What Ann is commenting on is the fact that once we ceded control Sidewalk Labs to a future governance body, we as Sidewalk Labs, we can't control what the government is going to decide to do with that new body. We can't decide whether or not they're going to commit to the same level of de-identification that we ourselves are committing to. We absolutely want to see that. Every indication is that that new governance body would take that on, but we fundamentally aren't the ones to make that decision and that's getting to the power and control piece that Bianca is talking about and we're ceding power and control and want to see the government step up.

MW: Okay. You're facing a lot of questions and criticism and concern about your plans for Quayside and you know as you say a lot of people in your team are former civil servants have worked in public policy and you're choosing to work in a private company. Why to rollout this possible new neighbourhood, why do you believe so strongly in a nutshell that what you're doing for Toronto is a good thing?

JESSE SHAPINS: I fundamentally believe that as a city and we've seen this over centuries, cities are made by the public sector, the private sector and civil society working together. This is a proposal that is built on that premise and really promises taking on the challenges of housing sustainability and mobility and making a better place for people here.

MW: Okay. Thanks very much. Jesse Shapins is the director of public realm at Sidewalk Labs. He's with me in our Toronto studio. We requested an interview with Waterfront Toronto, Sidewalk Labs' government partner on Quayside. No one was available, but it sent us a letter from the chairman of their board Steven Diamond, which ends with "as we have said before this project has stirred vigorous debate and regardless of the outcome raises issues to consider. Whether the Quayside project precedes the conversation we are having is important for all of Toronto." The CBC News is next. Then Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says Canada will ban single use plastics by 2021. But what about taking the initiative and banning them in your own life right now? We'll learn a little about how tough a challenge that is from someone who has taken it up. I'm Megan Williams and you're listening to the summer edition of The Current.

[Music: Theme]

'Little by little': How this woman is saying goodbye to single-use plastics

Guest: Tippi Thole, Anne Wilson, Sylvain Charlebois

MW: Hello. I'm Megan Williams and you're listening to the summer edition of The Current.

[Music: Theme]

MW: Still to come, for our special summer programming we're going to be featuring some of the best of CBC podcasts. Yesterday we kicked off with episode one of The Village, which is the latest season of CBC's investigative podcast series, Uncover. Over the next couple of weeks we'll be playing The Village in its entirety. So today stay tuned for episode two. But first, what to do about all the plastic in our lives?

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Does plastic packaging influence whether I will purchase something? Currently no. And that's an unfortunate thing. I worry about it after the fact.

VOICE 2: I won't buy something that's wrapped in plastic, only plastic. Like if it's a frozen product and it's just in plastic, I won't buy that.

VOICE 3: I would say that I'm always looking for alternatives and then if I can't find an alternative I definitely ask myself like do I really need this product or is there something else that I can use instead? Because it scares the hell out of me the situation that we're in right now.

MW: Those shoppers in Winnipeg and the rest of us will have to make new decisions about using plastics. Earlier this month, the federal government announced it would ban single use plastics starting as soon as 2021, but some Canadians aren't waiting. Tippi Thole has been blogging about her own breakup with plastics on her website tinytrashcan.com. Last month she spoke with Anna Maria Tremonti from her home in Saint-Constant, Quebec about that tiny trashcan of hers.

TIPPI THOLE: I would say I produce maybe about a cup of trash per week. I mean it can fit in my hand.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Wow. So what made you take on a challenge to do that?

TIPPI THOLE: So you know once I learned about the plastic pollution crisis I just felt compelled to do something about it. So I decided to start with myself. And while I couldn't drop everything and go clean up the world's oceans I could at least stop contributing to the problem. And I just felt like I couldn't in good conscience continue to use plastic anymore.

AMT: So what did you do, Tippi, tell me what kinds of changes you've made in your life?

TIPPI THOLE: You know I think it was initially I just started looking at what I was turning away and looking at whether or not I could eliminate it completely. And if not was there a better alternative. Was there an alternative that was more easily recyclable than plastic or that was compostable? And so little by little by basically looking at my trash I found all sorts of things that I could remove from the landfill. And it does take some effort at the beginning because you have to look for alternatives. But once you find those alternatives it's really no much harder than what I was doing before. It just becomes the new normal.

AMT: So give me an example like how do you buy groceries?

TIPPI THOLE: Yes. So at traditional or conventional grocery store I will bring my peaceful grocery bags of course. I will forego the produce bags that are offered in the police department. I'll just put my food directly into my cart. I will essentially avoid the whole centre of the store. When I need to buy dry goods I go to bulk stores like Bulk Barn or one of the many zero waste grocery stores that are popping up around Montreal and there I can fill, I can get pastas and beans. I can also even sell like oils vinegar syrups things like that. And I just bring my own containers.

AMT: So you bring your own jars.

TIPPI THOLE: Exactly.

AMT: Okay. What about you bring your own jars to the grocery store too, look for meat and things like that?

TIPPI THOLE: Yes I have. There are more stores that are allowing customers to do that. I think going to Adonis I don't eat very much meat at all but when I do I do bring my own container and have them put it directly in a jar for me.

AMT: And when you first started doing that what was the reaction?

TIPPI THOLE: Well you know it was more a reaction from myself. I just I felt a little uncomfortable I was a little bit shy at first. You know I have never really been denied. So I for the most part the reaction from people has been very positive especially when I explain why I'm doing it. Usually by the end of our interaction the person serving the me the food says you know this is so great. I wish more that this.

AMT: So. So it's really interesting because so much of the packaging that we have comes from our grocery stores.

TIPPI THOLE: Yes. I mean so much. That's what I was discovering is so much of what I was throwing a basis really came in by way of my food.

AMT: What do you do about things like takeout for example?

TIPPI THOLE: I bring my own containers there too. I mean I have something that I call a zero waste kit and that sounds fancy but it really isn't. It's just a spare like closed container a set of utensils and maybe a water bottle, and I can take that when I go and I buy it like fast food or I go to a snack bar and I just ask them to put the food directly into my containers.

AMT: So was this a process or did you like go from one day to the next doing this?

TIPPI THOLE: Well I had been thinking about it for a couple of months before I actually decided to commit to it 100 percent. It was basically my New Year's resolution for January 1st 2018 I just said you know what, enough with the talking about it. I'm actually going to start doing it. And so at that point I committed myself and my son is also involved too, 100 percent to avoiding as much plastic as he possibly could.

AMT: So you're telling me now that your garbage fits in the palm of your hand every week.

TIPPI THOLE: Yes.

AMT: Do you also compost?

TIPPI THOLE: I do. Yes I compost in my backyard. Our city doesn't yet have municipal composting but it's they're supposed to this fall. But I think I'll still continue to compost in my backyard.

AMT: What do you say to people who might want to try what you're doing but they're intimidated by the idea of it?

TIPPI THOLE: Yeah I mean I think if you want to start reducing your plastic usage I would say set a goal, like something that's very tangible, and start with one thing. Like maybe commit to eliminating a particular type of plastic that you use all the time like vowing not to buy bottled water anymore or skipping the produce bags, the grocery store or refusing straws at restaurants. And then once you've mastered one item then aim to eliminate another type of plastic. And you know it really becomes a lot easier as you go because once something becomes a habit you don't have to think about it anymore. And I think that's generally what makes it difficult. It's not the action of doing it it's the mental energy that sometimes goes into doing it and once it becomes a habit it's really effortless.

AMT: Well thank you for telling us about all of this.

TIPPI THOLE: You're very welcome.

AMT: That is Tippi sole she blogs about her efforts to lead a waste free life at tinytrash.can.com and we reached her in St. Constant, Quebec. If you're inspired to follow her lead an increasing number of retailers are helping to make it possible from Halifax to Toronto to Victoria. Entrepreneurs are opening smaller grocery stores and retail outlets where you won't see any packaging. You can fill up your own glass bottle from a giant tank of milk. You can scoop bulk cornflakes into a container that you have brought from home. But it isn't solely the specialty stores that are doing this kind of thing. Outlets such as Bulk Barn are getting in on the act. Last month the grocery chain Metro announced it would allow customers in its Quebec stores to bring in reusable containers. What would it take for the entire food distribution system to overhaul that relationship with plastic. As the song says Breaking Up Is Hard To Do. Sylvain Charlebois is a professor in food distribution and policy at Dalhousie University in Halifax and he's going to join us to talk about this. You're in Saskatoon today I guess. So hello.

SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS: Good morning.

AMT: Good morning. How hard would it be for grocery stores to break up with single use plastic?

SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS: Well it's not easy. I mean we don't. Plastics are therefore a reason to keep our foods safe affordable and it provides us with convenience. But throughout history when the food industry innovates and tries to offer us more convenience, it has often trumped two things, two fundamental aspects of our lives: the environment and our health and we're starting to see that with the plastic issue. A few years ago five years that we've barely talked about plastic it just came all of a sudden very violently I would say and the food industry is really trying to wrap it around this plastic problem because you I mean plastics is keeping our food safe so how do you replace that. And it's an affordable solution as well.

AMT: So what do you think of what Tippy is doing, bringing her own containers for all sorts of things?

SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS: Good for her. I mean she did mention in her interview adding this. Adam this is owned by Metro in Quebec and metro and you just mentioned it the Metro decided to become the first grocer to allow people to bring in to bring in their own containers. The challenge there is that there is there is a risk. I mean there's I suspect and it's an implicit moral contract between Metro and its customers because the steering. I mean when you think about pathogens you can't you can't see salmonella. You can't see E. coli or listeria even though they're asking people to bring in clean containers you don't know for sure. And I've actually had discussions with people with allergies. I mean allergens are are critical to a lot of people and you just have one accident with one clerk in one store and you can actually ask someone in deep trouble as a result.

AMT: So what would you be wary of do you buying without sort of plastic packaging when it comes to food safety. Can the word be some things would be fine instead of you know some veggies maybe or things that would be fine anyway but what would you be wary of?

SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS: Well Tippy's experience is telling because she is she didn't mention in her interview that she avoids the centre of the store. That's that that really is the problem. I mean packaging is the problem. We see a lot of cities banning bags utensils. To me these measures are more or a distraction or anything else the real problem is boils down to packaging and of course we should mention food service. I mean the food service industry is responsible for a lot of the garbage we see on beaches and everywhere in in nature. But I would say that really though a couple of solutions that would be attractive would be compostable even edible packaging. Technologies do exist but all of these technologies do come at a cost and so are consumers willing to pay more for ecofriendly packaging. That's the question.

AMT: A is it the grocery stores that have to do it or is it the actual food producers?

Is like climate change I don't think one organization can fix the problem. Metro really basically went to a quick and dirty solution I guess to two to plastics it's a solution it's something that they took action which is great. But when I see the plastic issue when we evaluate how problematic that is, you have to adopt a supply chain approach which would mean everyone from fork the consumer back to manufacturing. I mean everyone has to be involved.

AMT: Okay well Sylvain stay with us. I want to bring someone else in to talk about the challenges of going plastic free. Anne Wilson is a psychology professor at what Wilfrid Laurier University and she's joining us from Waterloo. Hi, Anne.

ANNE WILSON: Hi good morning.

AMT: Why is it hard for us to stop doing things that we know are not great for us to do that are bad for us like buying excessive plastic?

ANNE WILSON: Yes. Well in psychology one of the most revisited principles that we keep kind of forgetting and then realizing once again once again is that education and awareness isn't enough. So many of us know that those choices aren't the best ones but we're creatures of habit and we live in environments. Especially when we live increasingly busy lives the environments that we live in tend to provide us with the easiest options. So although I think that it's really great when people put a huge amount of effort into setting up their lives to avoid plastics, and I think that Tippi's example is a great one - it makes it very difficult for people to do that when the thing that's out your reach all of the time is the least positive kind of option.

AMT: Well you talk about setting up your life that's kind of key right. You have to think about it ahead of time?

ANNE WILSON: Yes right. So in the moment when we're busy and we're you know on the move and that sort of thing then it's often the easiest thing to do and the one that will default to is to buy something that's disposable or that's plastic. So in the moments where we have some extra time and to really sit down and to think through well what are the habits that I would like to form and what kinds of ways can I set up my own life so that that makes it more possible in the moment. So that kinds of things that I think that Tippi was a very good psychologist the way that she talked about it that setting things up with them having available plastic bags and containers and reusable cups and water bottles and that sort of thing and having those at the ready in the moments when you are going to need them makes it much easier to become a habit.And I'm just wondering how much guilt or shame plays into this I know that when I go to the grocery store and I've forgotten my reusable bags. I start you know unloading the groceries and I start apologizing right away for being, you know, yes I'm going to need plastic bags. Yes, I forgot them you know. And they're in the car. I can actually walk back and get them. So there's two things I'll say about that. One is that shame is actually an emotion that tends to lead people to just sort of turn away from a problem and say oh it's not that big a deal what can I do and that sort of thing but feeling a little bit of guilt in those moments is actually quite motivating. And social norms can really trigger that kind of guilt right where you feel like I look that person is looking at me with reproach because I'm asking for a plastic bag and I know that that's not really what I should do. Even if that doesn't change your behaviour in that one moment it's really likely to be the sort of thing that's going to send you home to try to set up your life better so that you don't do that again in the future.

AMT: Sylvain how much pressure are consumers putting on grocery stores when it comes to packaging?

SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS: Sorry it's a lot. And you're seeing it more and more grocers are really trying to figure out how to deal with this. So Metro actually came out first and I think they did that because they wanted to be first and this policy of bringing in your own container only applies to Quebec by the way. They actually have stores in Ontario but he couldn't get the same deal with [unintelligible] and Ontario. Looking at Loblaws and Sobey's and that's a lot of food sold to us. There's trying to figure out how to deal with this. They're looking at ecofriendly packaging to a reusable containers. I'm not sure some of your listeners are familiar with the loop. It's an American company. It's containers and consignment. You basically buy your products in a container. You bring them back to the grocery store like you like your beer bottles. That's another concept happening. But what I'm seeing more and more in Europe in particular are compostable packaging solutions, because it's convenient for everyone. You just need to put that into your compost and you're done.

AMT: Anne, you wanted to get in there on this as well.

SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS: Oh yes. Just that when we talk about the psychology of habit building I think that that's an important part of it. But the fact is the more that we can have our environment set up to make those also easy and convenient choices, the more people will do it even if it's not something that's necessarily centre of their own minds. So the more that people pressure both grocery stores and food producers and also you know support government policy is to really try to make these kinds of changes, the more we can actually set up the environment in a way that more people even the people who aren't taking the time to change their whole lives around these issues that the most convenient options are going to be ones that are less harmful.

AMT: Sylvain, you're working with some start-ups on packaging aren't you?

SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS: I am. Yes. And we have to look at the economics of packaging and and I'll be honest with you it's very hard because you see a lot of start-ups with really great products innovative products. They want to remain competitive but as they launch their business they're looking at your ecofriendly packaging which often costs 30-40-50 percent more. And so that actually would price them out of the market. And so they're really compelled to look at packaging that may be less ecofriendly. And this is really what I think is at the core of this issue. The economics of plastics. How much more people are willing to pay? Food safety measures have been around for decades but we all know that nobody wants to pay more for food safety because they just expect it. As consumers we expect it. With the environmental factor now coming on board are people willing to pay more to save the planet? And that's really the real question. And really when you're looking at food prices, of course you have to look at food security if you actually try to save the planet and make food too expensive that then you're basically penalizing people with less means.

AMT: So and what role does government have in all of this?

SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS: I would say Anne's point about education and awareness is a good one I do believe that sometimes we think that people can learn quick. I agree we're creatures of ours I do believe that governments should play a role around innovation and the commercialization of new ecofriendly packaging solutions there. The technologies are there. I mean they're everywhere. It's just a matter of making them affordable for companies to use them. And I would say that that's the one thing that governments could do.

AMT: Okay. We have to leave it there. Thank you both for your thoughts today.

ANNE WILSON: No problem.

SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS: Thank you.

MW: That's part of a conversation Anna Maria Tremonti had with Sylvain Charlebois, a professor in food distribution and policy at Dalhousie University in Halifax in May. To hear more visit our website cbc.ca/thecurrent.

[Music]

Uncover: The Village - Episode 2

MW: You're listening to the summer edition of The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm Megan Williams. Throughout the summer we're sharing some of the best of CBC Podcasts. Yesterday we kicked off episode one of The Village, the latest season of CBC's investigative series, Uncover. Today, Episode 2, journalist Justin Ling continues his investigation as more men go missing in Toronto's gay village and we learn from an anonymous source about how close police come to catching a serial killer, only to let him go. A warning, today's episode contains content relating to the discovery of human remains that could be disturbing to some listeners. Here is Episode 2 of The Village titled "Shame and Blame.".

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN LING: It's 2016. Skanda and Basir have been missing for six years. For Hamid, it's been four. Some of the missing persons posters are still up inside shops on Church Street. They're yellow and faded. The men might come up in conversation over coffee, like hey whatever happened to those guys went missing? But mostly people have moved on. I'm still trying to piece together the story and there is so little to go on. Toronto please provided me with a two page summary of the case. Let me read you a little bit of it. "The Toronto Police Service have not found any evidence to say that any of the missing men mentioned above knew each other. The only information between all three that is similar is that they all like to attend similar bars in the Church and Wellesley area, especially the Black Eagle. The same dark bar Joel Walker said Skanda often went to with Bruce.

JOEL WALKER: It's very nice people there and everything like that, but it is a very good place to hide and be anonymous.

JUSTIN LING: The letter outlines all the standard things police do in missing persons cases. They flag their debit and credit cards. They alert border agencies. The letter goes on to read that, "They have not returned any evidence as to their whereabouts or even a path of where they may have headed." That last line that sticks with me. Where they may have headed? It implies they simply took off. And that just seems so incredibly unlikely to me, especially for Abdulbasir Faizi, known as Basir, the Afghan immigrant with a wife and children. Basir's car was found on Moore Avenue in an upscale residential neighborhood, ten minutes north of the village. It had been there for days. It was Basir's wife that reported him missing. She told police that he didn't have any enemies, he wasn't suicidal and his passport was still at home.

[Sound of cars passing by]

JUSTIN LING: I went to where they found Basirs car. I wanted to see if I could figure out what he was doing the night he disappeared. I went back recently to retrace my steps. I sort of drive up and down the block a couple of times and try to scope out where someone would've parked, where a car could kind of get left for a couple days without anyone calling it in or without it getting towed. And basically this is the spot, kind of right up here, where there's overnight parking. You know it's a really quiet stretch. So I kind of pull in right here and get out.

[Opens door]

JUSTIN LING: Basir lived in Brampton, about a 45 minute drive west of here. So I'm sitting here thinking why would you drive up here? Why would you drive ten minutes north of the village, away from your home, where he didn't seem to have any connections whatsoever. After sundown this area is pretty quiet. It's mostly just homes and a big graveyard. So I think why drive up here at night? That's when I spot a wooded ravine with a little opening from the street.

[Footsteps]

JUSTIN LING: This might well be a cruising spot. You know a lot of parks in the city, little nature walks end up being pretty good spots for guys who are married or in the closet to meet up. So I look for a specific website where I know a lot of these listings are and sure enough the first hit in the area is the Beltline, where I'm standing.

[Sound of cars passing by]

JUSTIN LING: According to police records the night Basir went missing went like this. It was December 29, 2010. The factory where he worked closed early. A few hours later around 7:00 p.m. he called his wife to say that he would be grabbing drinks with co-workers. In fact he had driven to the village to the Black Eagle. From there he went to Steam Works, a men-only sauna. After that he bought himself a burger across the street. Then somehow his car winds up on Moore Avenue. It wasn't found until a week after he vanished, but police did not seem to piece together that Basir may have driven to Moore Avenue for sex. And it dawns on me that talking to the police I don't think they ever searched it here. They did a canvas of the neighborhood, they talked to people who live around here. No one saw anything. No one recognized the guy. But I don't think they ever came down here, maybe any more than just a quick walk through.

[Footsteps]

JUSTIN LING: I get in my car and I drive around. I'm looking for nothing in particular, but I end up on a leafy street just a few minutes away. It's a quiet cul de sac. I park in front of a modern looking home shaded by some huge trees.

[Sound of cars passing by]

JUSTIN LING: I'm kind of standing right here. It's sort of a raised area, so it's a great benefit point overlooking the entire Beltline trail and the whole neighborhood. I had no idea at the time, but I had parked my car right in front of Karen Fraser's home on Mallory Crescent. I had walked right past her front yard over to a spot that was just a few feet away from where police would later dig up her lawn. That warm summer day Bruce McArthur may well have been in her backyard tending to her flowers.

[Music]

JUSTIN LING: Over the years I worked on this story I felt the frustration police must have felt. There were just so few leads, but in June of 2017 I finally published my story on the missing men. It was the only article about their disappearance in years. The only explanation that made any sense to me was that Toronto's gay village had a serial killer and that raised the question: does it still?

VOICE 1: We were shocked last week to realize that our neighbor and our close friend Andrew Kinsman was missing.

JUSTIN LING: It's July of 2017. Toronto's annual Pride Festival had just wrapped up. I was there and so was Andrew Kinsman. Now he's missing.

VOICE 1: Along with a lot of people in the community, all of Andrew's communities, we're really upset and we're really concerned. He's a really wonderful person. He's funny, he's warm, he's thoughtful, he's caring and he's a man of great integrity.

JUSTIN LING: These are Andrew kinsman friends. They turned to the public for help.

VOICE 2: My husband and I saw him Sunday night the evening of Pride, the last day of Pride.

JUSTIN LING: Andrew lived in a huge stately home in Cabbagetown, a quiet neighborhood just adjacent to the village. The day he disappeared he chatted with one of his housemates for a few minutes recapping what they had done over Pride weekend. He told his neighbor he was heading out to meet a friend for coffee. He never returned.

VOICE 2: He was happy. He was upbeat. He talked about his job. We joked around a bit, maybe lasted 15 minutes or so and we separated. That's the last time I saw him.

JUSTIN LING: Andrew's friends and neighbours knew something was amiss. He had a cat at home that he loved. He had medication he needed to take every day. His friends went to police and stressed that something was wrong.

VOICE 2: I've never known Andrew to just pick up and disappear like this. It's very out of character.

JUSTIN LING: His friends knew that the more attention they brought into Andrew's case, the more publicity it would generate, the more people would come forward with tips and the harder it would be for police to ignore. So they held a rally in a local park.

VOICE 3: Thank you so much for coming out today to support finding Andrew. We really really appreciate it. I know Andrew would appreciate it.

DWIGHT FERGUSON: Come home safe please Andrew. We miss you and we love you, as you can see by all the people here and we want you back.

JUSTIN LING: That's Dwight Ferguson, a longtime friend of Andrew.

DWIGHT FERGUSON: I met him on GROWLr, a dating app and that was when we officially first started talking. And that was about six or seven years ago.

JUSTIN LING: I meet Dwight at a public library in Cabbagetown. We get a small study room in the very back. It looks kind of like a police interrogation room, but the interview isn't quite that tense. What did you do on your first hangout?

DWIGHT FERGUSON: We met for coffee and then went back to his place for coffee and just talked. It was kind of like a brother. We'd be baking or canning or just visiting and talking. Come over for dinner, that kind of thing.

JUSTIN LING: Canning what?

DWIGHT FERGUSON: Tomatoes, jam, applesauce that kind of stuff. I mean I fought over that Salvador Dali cookbook that he found at the Goodwill. They're very expensive. They're hard to find. I kept trying to steal it from him every time I went to his house. He had a dark sense of humour. He was funny, but he was sweet and kind at the same time. He got me volunteering at the PWA Central Market. We used to talk afterwards and the days in between when we were there.

JUSTIN LING: PWA is the people with AIDS foundations. That's where Andrew worked.

DWIGHT FERGUSON: And it wasn't until I got a call on the Wednesday from PWA that he was missing that I found out.

JUSTIN LING: Right. Do you remember what your reaction was?

DWIGHT FERGUSON: Fear. Worry. Concern for him. It's not like him to just disappear, so it was, it was very scary. The day I found out I went over to Andrew's house and I actually started searching on my way over there because I live not that far away, so as I was walking through I started checking the alleys and the streets and yards and stuff on my way over to his house.

JUSTIN LING: Andrew's network was a force. A small committee of concerned friends, neighbours and family got together. They began printing posters, organizing searches and they made sure that everyone in the city recognized his face.

DWIGHT FERGUSON: Yeah and we just started postering and searching and getting search parties going and PWA got involved and started helping us.

JUSTIN LING: How many posters do you think went up?

DWIGHT FERGUSON: At least 8000.

JUSTIN LING: Wow.

DWIGHT FERGUSON: We put over a thousand up just that Halloween.

JUSTIN LING: A picture of Andrew takes up most of the poster. He's facing the camera. He's tall, white, he's wearing a dark Bob and Doug McKenzie T-shirt. Andrew's mouth is covered by a neatly kept but bushy beard. Even still, you can tell he's grinning. His eyes are squinting a bit. He has a look on his face like he just caught you doing something embarrassing. Underneath his picture in big black letters is the word "MISSING." 49 years of age, 6'4, medium build, wears glasses, short brown hair. The posters are everywhere. You can't walk a block without seeing Andrew Kinsman's face.

[Music]

JUSTIN LING: In those early days did you have an idea of what might have happened?

DWIGHT FERGUSON: No. We didn't know.

JUSTIN LING: Right.

DWIGHT FERGUSON: I'm sure we all had our thoughts, but after a while it got to the point, yeah OK something's happened bad that we're not going to find out anything good after a while, but in the beginning there's always hope until you get the word that there isn't anymore.

JUSTIN LING: It seemed so likely that Andrew's disappearance was linked to Skanda, Hamid and Basir. Yes, Andrew was white and the other three were brown skinned, but there were too many similarities to ignore. They were all a similar age, bearded. They all spent time in the village. Andrew's friends feared from the very start that his disappearance would end up just like the cases from years before: unsolved and largely forgotten. They were determined not to let that happen.

DWIGHT FERGUSON: When the police finally listened to us and realized that yes he was missing and we'd better take this seriously then they were a great help working with us.

JUSTIN LING: Because you kind of had to underscore to them that this was very out of character for him.

DWIGHT FERGUSON: Yeah. It took some coaxing to get them to start believing us, but once they did they were right there all the time.

JUSTIN LING: Initially, it appeared Andrew was the first man to go missing from the village in five years. Maybe it was a coincidence. Maybe all the cases weren't connected after all. Then police delivered some more troubling news. Months earlier there had been another disappearance. It confirmed something that so many in the community had always feared: that men had never stopped going missing.

VOICE 4: Selim was from my experience like the softest person you could ever meet.

JUSTIN LING: Selim Esen had gone missing two months prior, yet nobody rang the alarm. The city wasn't blanketed in posters for him. There were no press conferences, but Selim's friends had been concerned the whole time.

VOICE 4: There was a real thoughtfulness, a tenderness about him. He had traveled so far. He wasn't from here. He came here. You know he was like out there defining goals for himself, accessing support, so he could achieve those things.

JUSTIN LING: Selim had come to Canada from Turkey. He had struggled with substance abuse, but he got sober. He had even graduated from a peer counseling class. He wanted to help others get better, but now he was missing. Another immigrant, another openly gay man, another brown face and police hadn't connected the dots. It was deja vu.

MW: Episode 2 of CBC Uncover: The Village continues in our next half hour. I'm Megan Williams and you're listening to the summer edition of The Current.

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN LING: I would later find out that McArthur admitted in that interview he'd known Skanda and Hamid for years. He told police he'd hired Hamid for landscaping and that he knew Skanda from the Black Eagle, but he denied knowing anything about their disappearances. So police let him go. He went on to kill five more men.

[Music]

JUSTIN LING: Police now have their killer, but the investigation isn't over.

VOICE 1: We are tracing his whereabouts as far back as we can go with essentially and see if we can link any outstanding occurrences to his movements and then see where we go from there.

JUSTIN LING: Police say there may be more victims. The trail of bodies may go back decades.

VOICE 2: Our investigative team are currently reviewing 15 homicide cold cases from 1975 to 1997.

JUSTIN LING: 15 more homicides. 15 more men with families and friends who have been waiting for answers for decades. Unsolved and largely forgotten.

[Music]

MW: That was Episode 2 of the CBC podcast, Uncover: The Village. Tomorrow we'll bring you episode three. That's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for Q. Pulitzer Prize winning critic Emily Nussbaum is on the show to talk about her new essay collection, I Like to Watch. We'll leave you today with some music from Bruce Springsteen. This is "Hello Sunshine." I'm Megan Williams. Thanks for listening to the summer edition of The Current.

[Song: "Hello Sunshine" by Bruce Springsteen]

June 25, 2019 episode transcript

Social Sharing

More from this episode