War with Russia could be inherited by our children, warns Ukrainian MP

Guests: Inna Sovsun, Jenny Mathers

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We are developing our own technology because we did not receive the technology transfer from any of the large companies. So we are producing a vaccine, which is new.

MATT GALLOWAY: As COVID cases rise, regulators in the United States have approved a fourth dose of the COVID vaccine. Canada may soon follow. Meanwhile, countries in Africa are still scrambling to get first and second doses into arms. In 30 minutes, the increasingly urgent efforts to create mRNA vaccines on the continent, for the continent, for COVID and other diseases. Also this morning. Spring has sprung, the sap is flowing and Quebec's sugar shacks are back open. In an hour, how the lockdown threatened the tradition of celebrating maple syrup in La Belle Province. Plus, long before there was a term for it, Star Wars Kid was a viral star online. Coming up, the story of how an unauthorised video posted online and seen a billion times reshape the life of a Quebec teen and foreshadowed today's concerns about consent and social media. We start, though, with those trying to find a pathway to peace. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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MG: The war in Ukraine continues, and so too, does the hope of peace, however faint that hope may be. Turkey's attempts to broker peace between the two countries on Tuesday has not yet achieved results as part of the path to peace, the Kremlin promised to kerb attacks around Kiev. But just hours later, the shelling continued.

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Well, clearly this is completely horrific what is happening? Because we see that while negotiations are still ongoing. Clearly, both parties are not able to trust each other. Why? Because Russia is not showing good faith and will continue to support the Ukrainian side as obviously Ukrainians are fighting for their freedom and their lives.

MG: That's Canada's Foreign Affairs Minister Melanie Joly. The wariness around Russian promises of peace extends also to Ukraine. Inna Sovsun is a member of Ukraine's parliament and deputy head of the pro-European Hollow's party. She's in Kyiv this morning. Inna, hello.

INNA SOVSUN: Hi.

MG: Thank you. How are you doing and what are you seeing in your city this morning?

INNA SOVSUN: Well, as of this night, it was relatively quiet also compared to the night before when the Russians were promised to de-escalate. However, we got that the heaviest shelling around the city and also many missiles were targeting the city as well. So today, as of right now, we're not hearing it hearing and explosions, which is a big change compared to what was the situation here 24 hours ago. We will see what does that mean? It feels like the Russians are trying to pull some of their troops away from Kyiv, and we are hearing reports that about 20 percent of the troops that were around the city are now back in Belarus. They're not giving up easily, and it's actually the Ukrainian army that is pushing them away, not to leave and voluntarily.

MG: Is your sense that that that pullback is genuine? Your fellow Ukrainian parliamentarian Evgeny Clinkers, it's a told CBC that she believes that Russia isn't really serious and is instead using that that drawback of forces around Kiev, perhaps to regroup for another attack.

INNA SOVSUN: Absolutely. I don't have any doubts about that. We do not trust the Russians. We understand that they're lying all the time. And after they said that they are pulling the troops away from Kyiv, or de-escalating as they said, however, they continued shelling and they continue to fight in the continued boom in the city. Well, that just says it all about whether they're serious about building trust. So our feeling is, of course, that they are trying to regroup in order to either attack Kiev yet again with another forces or which is more likely they're trying to regroup and to send those troops that are here right now and send them to Donbass because that is the area where they actually got some advances. And it is probably logical for them to put all their forces there so they can advance even more and get at least some victory that they can report before May 9th and the huge parade that's planned in Moscow.

MG: That issue of trust is key to any peace negotiations. When I spoke with you just over a month ago and negotiations were underway in Belarus and I asked you if you were optimistic that those negotiations would lead to an end to the fighting. Take a listen to your answer from that time.

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What I know for sure is that every word that comes out of Putin's my mouth is a lie. He was saying that he will not attack Ukraine just just two days before the attack. So there is no way to trust him and no way to trust his intentions and now know that his intentions are good.

MG: I'll ask the question again a month later. How likely do you think a peace deal with Russia is given what you've just said?

INNA SOVSUN: I still believe the same, unfortunately. Unfortunately, in the months we have seen how atrocious the Russian on the East, we have seen them specifically targeted children. We are seeing them rape and women in the occupied territories. There is no way to be trusted. They need to be kicked out of our country, and I do not believe that we can do that in any diplomatic effort, unfortunately, and I'm not saying that too late, but it is a very difficult decision. I do not trust any deals that we can make them, and I am afraid that any deal that can potentially be achieved right now will just freeze this conflict. And that means we shall be living constantly under threat of a new war in a month, a year or two years from now. And that is something that I truly do not want. I do not want my son to inherit this war for his lifetime. So I unfortunately do not trust that we can actually achieve results that will protect us during the peace talks, and I'm afraid that the best diplomacy efforts should be done by the Ukrainian army right now as we speak.

MG: Those peace talks are underway, and Ukraine's lead negotiator in this says that compromise in some ways. It has to come from both sides if you're going to try to get to a negotiated peace. What what is Ukraine willing to to compromise on? There's been talk that Ukraine could move toward being a neutral country that perhaps if Russian forces withdrew to the borders of February 23rd, which was the day before the invasion, that that perhaps would be, if not the start, then something tangible to see. Are those things in the realm of possibility? Would that be a way to lead to a cease fire, do you think?

INNA SOVSUN: Well, we have not seen any reaction of the Russian side to those proposals. And frankly speaking, I do not believe that they would agree to that. Also, there are difficulties in Ukraine in terms of accepting the idea of neutrality, because right now the support for join NATO is as high as it has never been before. About 80 percent of Ukrainians believe we should join later, just because this is the only system of collective security that is functioning. And then we can trust. Yes, we do know very well that in 2014, when Russia attacked Ukraine, annexed Crimea, started the war in the bus that killed 14000 Ukrainians. Then in 2014, we were officially a neutral state. So right now, when Russia is still us, as long as you are a neutral U.S. safe, I'm sorry, we can't trust that just because we remember very recent history. So in order to ensure our security, we need some very, very tough guarantees so Ukrainians can actually trust. And NATO is the best solution. Potentially some other security guarantees can be made. But again, they need to be, you know, they need to be tangible. They need to be something that we can understand and trust that in case we are attacked yet again, there will be some security guarantees for us. Yes, we did have some security guarantees after 1994, the Budapest memorandum, but we see that didn't work out. So again, sorry, it's very difficult to trust that other types of guarantees, except for a potential NATO membership, would be actually saving us here.

MG: There's been talk that perhaps other Western nations like Canada could act as as guarantors in any negotiated settlement. Do you see that as as a way? If you can't trust Russian leadership, that that would be a way to create the conditions for somebody else to be involved in helping to mediate that trust?

INNA SOVSUN: Well, that really depends on what sort of guarantees that other countries are proposing because we do not. OK, if if Canada says that we can guarantee Ukraine's security and if Ukraine is attacked yet again, we shall get our troops on the ground. That is something that we can trust. I am not hearing those words specifically what we're hearing. I just abstract phrases like we shall be guarantors of Ukraine's peace and Ukraine security. But what does that mean exactly? Who will be willing to fight together with us if we are attacked again by Russia? That is something that we are not hearing, so I'm sorry, but that doesn't sound like a realistic plan to us, as right now.

MG: How does this end? Then this is we're in more than a month of this war and you're seeing this firsthand. As you mentioned what was happening last night and the night before, the toll is horrific. So if you if you don't have that trust, how do you think this will end?

INNA SOVSUN: Well, the only way the best way to end it is to kick them out of our country militarily. And I'm afraid that that is the only thing that can be done, and that is why we continue to talk to our allies, to our partners, particularly in the West, and asking them to help us with weapons because the Ukrainian army is completely capable of kicking them out of our country and that we will not have to compromise and that we shall have a final solution to this war. And that is why we need the anti-aircraft weapon. We need the long range missile so that we can hit down their artillery. And we need more tanks and everything else that the president is asking for. He's doing that for a good reason because the best diplomacy efforts again are being conducted by the Ukrainian Army and that we don't have to compromise and that we can actually make sure that our security is guaranteed.

MG: Inna Sovsun to speak with you again. Stay safe and we'll talk again in future. Thank you very much. Thank you. You know, Solverson is a member of Ukraine's parliament. She was in Kyiv this morning. Jenny Mathers is a senior lecturer in the Department of International Politics at Aberystwyth University in Wales with a focus on Russian politics and security. She's in Nashville this morning. Jenny, good morning to you.

JENNY MATHERS: Good morning.

MG: You just heard there's very little trust there, and Inna Sovsun says the best diplomatic efforts are happening on the battlefield. What do you think the chances are of a cease fire at this moment between Russia and Ukraine?

JENNY MATHERS: Well, I think, unfortunately, that she's right in the sense that we're not entirely certain that Russia is negotiating very seriously. I mean, it has obviously begun to pull troops back from around Kiev, but this was clearly not out of goodwill. But because the Russian forces are being defeated, embarrassingly so on the battlefield by the Ukrainians. And also, you know, the the problems that the Russian military is facing are becoming more and more apparent. So, you know, Russia is really being forced to these negotiating tables, but they're still not necessarily negotiating in good faith. And I think it's going to take a lot for the Ukrainians to believe in the things that the Russians are saying. The Russians are going to really have to back up their words with actions. And yes I mean, there is absolutely no trust at the moment.

MG: Ukraine is still, as you heard, very adamant in its desire to join the European Union. That was one of the conditions for peace that the negotiations saw on Tuesday. What would that mean in terms of a potential peace deal if they were granted membership, or if that that remains a strong condition?

JENNY MATHERS: Well, membership of the EU is something which is a very lengthy process. So as much goodwill as there is towards Ukraine within the EU, Ukraine is not going to get membership in the next few days, weeks or months. It's a process that takes many years. I think the significance of it, though, is that it ties. It would tie Ukraine to the West in much more substantial concrete terms. It would make it part of, you know, one of the most important trading blocs and political economic associations in the world, and it would give it a lot of powerful allies in politics and economic terms. So those are important things. It would also signal to the world that Ukraine is formally joining the West. Now, of course, this is something that Russia has not light in the past. It haven't like the prospect of Ukraine moving more to the West. And of course, it was originally the prospect that Ukraine might seek a closer relationship with the EU that supports the invasion of Crimea in 2014 and its annexation and then the invasion of the Donbas shortly after that. So, you know, we wait to see whether Russia would actually be content with this kind of a way forward.

MG: There are also, as you heard, real concerns about guaranteeing Ukraine's security in the wake of any sort of cease fire or peace agreement. I want to ask in just a moment about the security guarantees, but part of that is about seeking security guarantees that are stronger in some ways than NATO's Article five. Is that not a valid request? But is that a request that makes sense given what you just heard from Anna Solverson in terms of the real fear and the lack of trust that she has and that many Ukrainians have?

JENNY MATHERS: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, as far as Ukraine is concerned, it needs really rock solid guarantees of its security in the future. And, you know, later membership would be the gold standard that it definitely still aspires to. But anything short of that, we have to be very, very strong in order to reassure the Ukrainians that if something like this happens again, if there a future invasion by Russia, then it will be met with, you know, real pushback and not just by the Ukrainians, but by its allies. But but hopefully such a security guarantee would be strong enough that it would deter the Russians from ever trying to do this again and again.

MG: There's the idea that's been floated that Canada and the United Kingdom could be potential security guarantors for Ukraine. You know, it's often said that those are empty words unless those countries, including ours, say that if Russia invades again, if Ukraine's sovereignty and security is threatened again, that Canada would send troops in. Does that- when you think about that, does that makes perfect sense to you?

JENNY MATHERS: It does. And the problem is that this is exactly the sticking point that Nieto is in at the moment. NATO doesn't want to inflame Russia and Putin further. It doesn't want to give Putin an excuse to escalate even further, possibly to, you know, something like nuclear weapons. That's the real fear that lies behind all of this. And this is why NATO is not willing to commit its own troops. It's willing to give, you know, weapons and equipment and so on if they push it over the border, but not to put his own troops in harm's way out of fear of what would happen after that. So I'm not sure I understand the distinction between where we are now, with NATO being only willing to do so much and where we might be in the future with other security guarantees to guarantee countries supposedly willing to go further than Nieto is willing to go now. Because as long as Russia is armed with nuclear weapons, I think there is going to be that concern about a direct confrontation between nuclear armed states or alliances.

MG: In the meantime, there is concern that Russian troops could simply just stay where they are right now. We've seen that in past Russian troops invaded parts of Georgia and, of course, Crimea and then just parked themselves. There is that in the realm of possibility in Ukraine.

JENNY MATHERS: It is in the realm of possibility in the eastern part in the Donbass region, and this is the part of Ukraine where Russia has had a military presence, although not acknowledged publicly since 2014. It's been working through proxies, sending a lot of weapons and equipment and surreptitiously sending its own troops as well. They're they're very solidly dug in to a large parts of the Dunbar, baffled and all of it. And so it is definitely plausible, almost certain that Russian troops will stay in the contest, either as part of some kind of an agreement with Ukraine or without an agreement. So that is definitely the stronghold.

MG: You study and teach Russian politics. We're now hearing that Russian officials are afraid to tell Vladimir Putin the truth about how the war is going this morning. There are reports that some Russian soldiers are ignoring their orders in Ukraine. How does this end so that Vladimir Putin saves some face, that he is able to end this war and and not lose all credibility? Or is that is that possible now given where we're at in this war and given how it's going for Russia?

JENNY MATHERS: Well, I think the first problem is that Vladimir Putin doesn't show any signs of wanting to end the war at all. He shows signs of wanting to double down, push back harder, you know, wanting to do more and have a victory. He has a very peculiar and distorted view of Ukraine and the fact that it's doesn't see it as a separate country and so on and so on. And so so far, that's the first problems he doesn't seem to want to stop the war. The second problem is that I'm not sure he really needs to save face in the sense that we won't understand it. What we've seen and learning more and more in the past few weeks is that he has managed to consolidate his grip on Russian politics and security and the economy and even society. Because while we've seen a lot of Russians opposing the war, relatively a lot considering the possible costs that they might have to pay. We've also seen a huge exodus of Russian. Tens of thousands of Russians have left the country, maybe permanently. And these are the people, the ones who've left are the ones who have the most sort of willingness to stand up to Putin and the regime. The most independent minds, the most outward looking views. Without the people, to kind of help to lead and consolidate some kind of opposition, I think it's really hard to see how Putin is going to be effectively challenged by society, and he seems to have the elites within the regime very, very firmly under his thumb. So although we might, you know, wonder whether it might possibly be a coup to overthrow him at some point and bring in a more compliant leadership, actually, it doesn't look likely from this point of view. So I'm afraid to have to be very pessimistic here and say, I don't think we're going to see an end to this or anytime soon.

MG: That is pessimistic given mean the toll that it's taking and more than four million people fleeing Ukraine right now, you take a look at the images of Mariupol, of what's going on in Odessa and the terror in other cities as well.

JENNY MATHERS: Exactly, and and this is the problem with war in general, and with this one in particular, the longer it goes on, the more these views on both sides are consolidated, so a lack of trust will only get worse. The hatred will only get worse. The war atrocities, unfortunately, are likely only to get worse. It's a very difficult spiral to come out of when you don't have strong sort of strong basis for overcoming those obstacles and trying to get the peace.

MG: And so you can have international people involved in this and international players. But in many ways, it's based in those two countries and in Russia in particular,

JENNY MATHERS: it has absolutely it has to come, you know, the momentum really has to come from Russia and Ukraine, you know, international bodies, actors can do quite a bit to facilitate discussion, but ultimately it's those two sides that have to come to those agreements.

MG: Jenny Mathers, good to speak with you. Thank you very much.

JENNY MATHERS: Thank you.

MG: Jenny Mathers is a senior lecturer in the Department of International Politics at Aberystwyth University in Wales, where she studies and teaches Russian politics. You're CBC news with the latest on the war is next and then to this.

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This, in fact, is part of a strategy from Africa to produce 60 percent of all vaccines by 2040. So this is part of building an industry.

MG: Since the start of this pandemic, several African countries have asked for patent waivers on COVID 19 vaccines. They have not been granted. Now an mRNA hub for Africa. The first of its kind is being set up in Cape Town in six minutes. A vaccine of one's own, how people are trying to build new health systems, vaccines and more in Africa and beyond. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. More to come. Stay with us.

Can Russia and Ukraine broker a peace deal, and can the Kremlin be trusted?; African nations working to create their own COVID-19 mRNA vaccines

Guests: Petro Terblanche, Achal Prabhala, Christian Happi

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

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Still to come, 'tis the season to celebrate that sweet sap after a two year shutdown, we take you inside a Quebec sugar shack. But first, the push for vaccine equity continues.

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Thanks to vaccines, smallpox is no more. Polio is on the brink of eradication. But this scientific triumph has been undermined by vast inequities in access to this lifesaving tools. Much of this inequity has been driven by the fact that globally vaccine production is concentrated in a few, mostly high income countries. One of the most obvious lessons of the pandemic, therefore, is the urgent need to increase local production of vaccines, especially in low and middle income countries.

MG: As the director general of the World Health Organisation, Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus last month, the W.H.O. announced six African countries will receive technology to produce a new mRNA vaccine made in South Africa. This is all part of a new plan to develop vaccine technology in and for lower and middle income countries. Egypt, Kenya, Nigeria, Senegal, South Africa and Tunisia will become the first African countries to fully manufacture vaccines. Petro Terblanche is managing director of African Biologics. It's a biotechnology start-up in Cape Town, hosting the global hub that is creating this new mRNA vaccine. Petro Terblanche. Good morning.

PETRO TERBLANCHE: Good morning, met and good morning to all the listeners.

MG: You and I spoke in December as your work was beginning. Just briefly remind us of the vaccine technology that you are helping to develop.

PETRO TERBLANCHE: So the platform we're creating here with support with all the all the partners is an important vaccine platform, and this is a platform which is similar to what is used for the Moderna vaccine and the Pfizer BioNTech vaccine.

MG: How far along are you under in doing this work?

PETRO TERBLANCHE: We are developing our own technology because we did not receive a technology transfer rate from any of the large companies. So we are producing a vaccine, which is new, although it's based on the sequence published by Stanford University and which is which the Moderna vaccine is based on, the signed this year had to do up to do everything from nothing to start from absolute nothing. We are now have a lab scale vaccine. We are busy doing immunogenicity testing. We are scaling and we will then move on to make GMP good manufacturing practise batches which will be ready for clinical trials towards the end of of this year, and we now have to go through a full development cycle. So from a regulatory perspective, from a vaccine production perspective, from a quality perspective, this is a very exciting but also very, very complex project.

MG: There are many European countries who are opposed to waiving intellectual property rights that might help in furthering the work that you're doing. How do you understand that? Why, why those countries are so opposed to this?

PETRO TERBLANCHE: So the intellectual property laws and intellectual property landscape is in mRNA is particularly complex. Intellectual property is a management, and protection is a tool that was introduced to protect commercial interests. And the motivation is that if a company has invested significant resources, that company would want to have some protection to be able to take the products to market and to protect the products from market because of the investments that that they've put into into these products. Intellectual property laws as as many positive spinoffs, it stimulates innovation and it creates healthy competition. But in the in COVID 19, intellectual property became potentially and is an obstacle to ensure that we have equal distribution of essential not only vaccines, but essential products for COVID 19 global relief. So I believe is becoming a very important debate in the midst of the COVID 19 pandemic.

MG: Moderna and BioNTech, which makes the Pfizer vaccine, have said that they would not enforce their patents in Africa during the pandemic. Is that enough to help address the concerns that you've just raised?

PETRO TERBLANCHE: Yes, both those companies and we are grateful for that has been publicly made these comments. We have not received anything in writing. We we believe that this would be an ethical standard that will be upheld. The important part is that will give us freedom to operate during the pandemic or to a rebuilding year is a platform of mRNA production technologies that will in early build low and middle income countries not only to make a COVID 19 vaccine, but to make other vaccines relevant for the burden of disease in these countries. We're building capacity for low and middle income countries to have more vaccine equality and to be able to produce it and vaccines. And for that, we would will required freedom to operate.

MG: What are the other diseases beyond COVID that you think this platform and the technology might help address?

PETRO TERBLANCHE: We believe that from a burden of disease, [unintelligible] is quite important, but we know those were probably the very, very difficult vaccines to make. Using a similar platform, the ones that we are looking at as potential candidates is Lassa fever, Ebola, chikungunya, schistosomiasis, dengue fever, yellow fever, even measles. They are traditional vaccines that we may now see that there's a need for improvement with an aim on an AI platform would be very suitable. But then there are the diseases that they no vaccines available for, that an mRNA platform would be able to fast track. We know the benefits of an mRNA platform, and this was demonstrated by by Moderna and Pfizer-BioNTech and to the to the great benefit of the world. We must utilise this kind of platform to fast track vaccine development and to give give opportunities for a rapid pandemic response utilising this kind of platform.

MG: And so what do you think is at stake here when it comes to this platform? Again, people are focussed on this immediate pandemic, but more broadly, when it comes to capacity on the continent to produce these vaccines, what do you think is at stake here?

PETRO TERBLANCHE: So Africa cannot continue just to produce one per cent of the vaccines that we use. The continent requires 25 per cent of the global vaccines in production. It does not make economic, scientific or development sense to rely on that rely on the rest of the world for 25 per cent of your vaccine needs. It is of immense importance that we establish the ecosystem and the capacity and the capability to produce at least 60 per cent of the vaccines we need by 2040 or earlier. The continent is not looking for total supply of its own vaccines. We understand risk management and we understand that there's always a place for supplies from other continents and from other other companies, and we want to participate in a global vaccine industry. So it is very important that these projects, which is important, I hope, is just one of the few projects that these projects succeed.

MG: And are you confident that your work will be successful? You mentioned clinical trials later this year.

PETRO TERBLANCHE: Failure is not an option. We are focussed. We know that these are key milestones that we need to reach, but we're confident that we will reach those milestones.

MG: Failure is not an option. That's a pretty bold statement.

PETRO TERBLANCHE: Yes, it is not an option.

MG: Petro Terblanche, it's good to speak with you again. Thank you very much.

PETRO TERBLANCHE: Thank you. Matt.

MG: Petro Terblanche is managing director of African Biologics. She was in Cape Town. The plan is for the technology of the WHO's tech transfer hub to go well beyond Africa. Achal Prabhala is the coordinator of the Access IPSA project, which campaigns for access to medicines in India, Brazil and South Africa. He's in Bangalore, India, and Christian Happi is director of the African Centre of Excellence for Genomics of Infectious Diseases at Redeemers University. He is in Nigeria. Hello to you, both!

CHRISTIAN HAPPI: Hello, Matt.

ACHAL PRABHALA: Hello.

MG: Christian, happy. What difference would it make to have vaccines, and we'll start with COVID vaccines being produced on the continent itself?

CHRISTIAN HAPPI: It would make a big difference to have the vaccine produced on the continent because it would build confidence on the health system in Africa. It's also what I call a cut down to vaccine dependency of Africa from there for the rest of the world. What was the lesson that Africa learnt from this pandemic is actually how dependable we are and how vulnerable we are because we're basically dependent on the rest of the world from outside, too, I mean, for vaccines and medical commodities. I think producing vaccine in Africa will be a confidence not only I mean on the continent, but will also build confidence into the into the into the system and also will actually reduce to a large extent what I call I mean the anti-vax movement, because, you know, if you notice in Africa, a lot of people, you know, are very sceptical about some of the vaccines that are coming from overseas recent being simple. When you don't make a donation of vaccines, underrate the vaccine that you to expire or next year on year merely expire, then people really are very cautious about the use of the vaccine that are being sent, you know, from the West. So producing vaccine in Africa will be very important because not only to have the continent. I mean the COVID pandemic, but also set up the stage for pre-empting or preventing future pandemics or epidemics on the continent.

MG: I want to ask you more about that hesitancy issue in just a moment, Achal Prabhala, from your perspective beyond the continent. How do you see the importance of this of this technology transfer and broadening, if I can put it that way? The range in terms of the number of countries that can produce a COVID vaccine, how important is that for the countries that you're working with?

ACHAL PRABHALA: Extremely important that. So if we look at this historically to understand why we're in the problem of rain in the past, the way it worked roughly was over the last 25 years, Western countries rich countries took care of themselves. The big pharmaceutical companies that we know of that make vaccines like Pfizer and Moderna didn't exist at that time that Moderna was included. Now Merck and Johnson and Johnson, they supplied vaccines and medicines primarily to rich country and western markets. India, increasingly over the last 20 years, was seen as a base of supply of cheap medicines and vaccines to the Third World. So developing countries increasingly relied on India to supply them with medicines that they could afford, especially in the HIV aids crisis. What happened during COVID was that the vaccine contracts in India were insufficient to meet not only the needs of half the world, the 92 poorest countries in the world, but also in India alone. And so India banned exports. And so not only could the world's poorest countries now not rely on Western countries, they could also not rely on India. And what that underscored is that we must make vaccine technology and medicine technology as widely geographically dispersed as possible. It's not possible to have it on every call in every country, but it's certainly possible to have these lifesaving vaccines produced on every continent.

MG: This is something that's been discussed almost as soon as the vaccines came onto the horizon. The idea that those pharmaceutical companies that created the vaccines should release the patents should allow the technology to be transferred. So to your point, Achal, they could be produced in a range of nations. Take a listen to the CEO of Pfizer, Albert Bourla. Here's how he answered a question on CBC about why his company isn't sharing the vaccine formula with the rest of the world.

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It was never a question of intellectual property why we didn't have enough vaccines in the first half of 2021. It was lack of raw materials that was not even infrastructure we could build. And for those that they know, even basic things about how sophisticated those technologies is to say that we can transfer knowledge or we will have some countries in Africa start manufacturing this high tech, they are completely dreaming this is not possible.

MG: Achal Prabhala, he says. It's completely dreaming to think that you can manufacture these vaccines as complicated as they are all around the world, that it's just not possible. What's your response?

ACHAL PRABHALA: I wanted to say that Albert Bourla lives in a parallel universe that's just operating on a different time space.

MG: A parallel universe.

ACHAL PRABHALA: But no, in fact, actually what Albert Bourla is doing is he knows very well that these vaccines can be manufactured elsewhere outside of North America and Europe. What he's doing is playing into the perceptions that exist in maybe Canadians minds or in other people who live in rich countries that many vaccines because they're the newest vaccine technology. The most complex, and therefore no one can make them. He is playing into that because in fact, the opposite is true. Emergency vaccines are kind of digital vaccines in comparison to what we know as vaccines before the pandemic, which you could think of as analogue vaccines. Before the pandemic, vaccines had to be made with an essential step, which was to build the biology you had to actually grow failed. You did that in yeast or in eggs. And this was a time consuming process that you simply could not do away with, and vaccines dispense with that process. These are synthesised vaccines that could be made in a test tube, and they're a hack. The body recognises them as biology, even though they're much simpler to produce on an assembly line. Now, because of that, Moderna vaccines can be made by far more companies around the world than could make, let's say, the AstraZeneca vaccine, which you've used in Canada. And it's a fact that there are eight companies that a colleague and identified from MSF and the [unintelliglble] project across the African continent, from South Africa to Senegal to Morocco to Tunisia and Egypt, who have the quality and the technical capabilities to produce mRNA vaccines today. In fact, these companies are already producing sterile injectables that are going into the arms of Canadians and Americans and Europeans and have been for several years. So this is just delusional. But I think it is unfortunate that people like Albert Bourla can get away with saying things like this. I'd almost prefer him to come out and just say, yes, it's possible. We just don't want to do it.

MG: Christian Happi, What does the statement of the Pfizer CEO tell you about how Africa has been viewed through this pandemic? That it, his words, in some ways, it's too complicated to produce these vaccines on the continent, and that's why the technology has yet to be transferred?

CHRISTIAN HAPPI: It is definitely the condescending nature of some of some actors in the field. Thinking that Africa is not right and nothing good can come from Africa. And it is a big shame that you know that we could hear that from a CEO of a company like Pfizer. He forgot clearly that, you know, a lot of the genomes [unintelligilbe] that the mind to generate the vaccine came from Africa. He forgot that, you know, the beta variant and Omicron was discovered frome Africa, and that with those with the technology and the skills available to discover those variants, you could easily, you know, develop a vaccine, as my colleague just said. And unfortunately, you know, people, I mean, I mean, he got away with it. The truth of the matter is that it's not rocket science to do an mRNA vaccine. My centre here in Nigeria, in collaboration with my colleagues at University of Cambridge, developed the innovative vaccine that is currently undergoing clinical trial in the U.K. So it's not rocket science, it's not something that Africans cannot do, and I'm very sure if you're going to Pfizer, you're going to see a lot of Africans. I mean, that's what I'm Africans, putting in their energy and their brains on their resources, helping them to develop these vaccine, to say to the continent of this nature cannot produce something for me, is insulting and is not acceptable.

MG: Achal Prabhala, we know that African biologics and others are working to create their own RNA vaccines in South Africa. If you create the vaccine, that's one thing. What are the other parts of health infrastructure that need to be in place to ensure that if the vaccine is created, it can get out and get into the arms of people that need that vaccine, whether it's on the continent or whether it's in in other nations that you're working with.

ACHAL PRABHALA: I think the best way to answer this question is to say, firstly, that many of the countries that are now experiencing problems with distribution have not had that privilege until very recently. So until recently, there just weren't enough vaccines to even run up against the further stumbling blocks you have, like delivery of vaccines, for instance, right? So that's a problem that has only been alleviated, not solved very, very recently. But yes, of course, all poor countries have limited public health infrastructure, which means that it is generally much, much more difficult to deliver medical services. The truth is, however, that this is not an insurmountable problem, nor is it an excuse to say that Nigeria, as vaccination rates should just stay at five percent of the population. That's not a good solution for Nigeria. It's not a good solution for the rest of the world. And the way I was thinking about it was this suppose, for instance, in Canada, where you know, over 80 percent of the population has been vaccinated, it suddenly became clear that the future survival of this health and safety and survival of Canada depended upon Nigerians being vaccinated to some very large extent. Right. I assure you that if this is the case, we would find a way to vaccinate a very large number of Nigerians. So instead of thinking of distribution and delivery as as a as an insolvable problem, I think that we need to look at it as something that we can participate in to help. The first step towards solving those delivery problems, of course, is actually supplying enough vaccines that can be delivered.

MG: This is about vaccines, but it's also about attitude, to your point.

ACHAL PRABHALA: Very much so. Very much so. I think that there are two things happening here and I don't want. Lay all the blame at the feet of Western governments, because I think that a lot of poor countries have simply abandoned responsibility for health in their countries. They've abandoned it to a U.N. organisation or to the Gates Foundation. And I think that there has been an increasing what I call an NGO ization of public health in poor countries. I see that here. Bangladesh next door is a prime example of it. And this is this is a bad, bad idea for any state that runs a poor country. The fact that they have abandoned control of it means that when COVID came, they had very little understanding of even what to do to secure public health. So we need to see far more engagement and responsibility taken by both countries governments around the health of their own citizens and residents.

MG: Christian Happi. This is a conversation that we've had on the programme before, and it goes beyond COVID in some ways, creating a template for rethinking health systems on the continent. What do you see beyond this pandemic as the opportunity if vaccines are being created in Africa, in countries in Africa, whether it's South Africa, in Nigeria, in Kenya, where there's work that's being done or beyond?

CHRISTIAN HAPPI: Well, I do think that, you know, this pandemic probably has an opportunity, is an opportunity for Africa to actually start building, you know, its own security. And I think it is clear that, you know, if Africa has to survive and then develop, then we need to ensure I have security. And in so doing, we need to think about developing vaccines and other countermeasures. We're talking about diagnostics. We're talking about therapeutics. And then also other medical commodities, because it's very important for the survival of the continent, but is also crucial for African governments and countries to actually assume the responsibility. I mean, to invest into these areas and as well as about the private sector to invest into this area and create that level of independence that is needed for the continent. And I do believe strongly that it is time for Africa actually to start work, work in a better coordinated manner and exchange information exchange knowledge and made sure that, you know, we can actually start winning over the vaccine and then the medical what I call dependency that will, well, that will lead them over the past 50 years.

MG: What's your best case in terms of a timeline? Again, this speaks to the pandemic that we're in right now and the hesitancy that you mentioned earlier, but for other diseases that could be addressed by this. What's the best case scenario in terms of the production of vaccines on the continent, Christian?

CHRISTIAN HAPPI: Yeah, I do believe that, you know, with with focus on investment, I do believe that in the next five years, we could actually reach that. Probably not everywhere. But I think we will have some pockets on the continent that will have the ability to produce that and produce that very efficiently. And then we will actually never spoken to that building the capacity that is needed in order to areas in Africa to this pandemic. We've seen multilateralism and we've seen globalisation collapse and we've gone down to what are called vaccine nationalism. I think if there's anything for the continent to learn, it's actually that [unintelligible] I relied on yourself

MG: a child propeller just finally to you. I mean, what? What's at stake in terms of accelerating that? That timeline five years seems ambitious, perhaps, but it also speaks to the need that's on the ground right now.

ACHAL PRABHALA: Yeah, we definitely have to accelerate that timeline. Look, all of the plans that companies like BioNTech and Moderna have to build plants in Africa, those are only going to come operational in three or four years. The WHO vaccine will take at least three years and also carries the additional burden of having to prove that it works. They still have to put it through clinical trials. We have live now two years in a in a space where the pandemic has generated mutants and variants every six months. Right. We have another three years facing us me, my parents in India, for instance, where we don't have access to and a booster, not even a third shot, let alone a fourth shot, right? This is the same for about 50 percent of the world. All four countries in the world face a very, very rocky three years from now, unless something changes very quickly. And the thing that we feel I feel can change fastest is having the expertise of these companies that already exist being used by vaccine manufacturers like Pfizer and BioNTech and Moderna. Without that, there is no short solution, and that makes me very frightened.

MG: It's great to speak with you both about this. This is important work and we'll talk again. Thank you very much.

CHRISTIAN HAPPI: Thank you very much.

ACHAL PRABHALA: Thank you.

MG: Achal Prabhala is the coordinator of the excess IPBES project. He was in Bangalore, India. Christian Happi is a professor of molecular biology and genomics and the director of the African Centre of Excellence for Genomics of Infectious Diseases at Redeemers University. He was in A-Day, Nigeria. Coming up after your regional update.

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It's a very warm and inviting, comfortable atmosphere. It kind of feels like your grandmother's house or your aunt's house. Long tables and it's filled with people talking and you hear the chimes of the plates all over the place.

MG: a sign of winter coming to an end. Quebec's sugar shacks are back and they are as sweet as ever will take you inside one sample a bit of maple syrup as well. That's coming up. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. Back in 90 seconds. Stick around.

Inside a reopened Quebec sugar shack

Guests: Daniel Lorain, Stephanie Lorain

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. This part. The guests are back after shutting down two years ago for the pandemic, Quebec Sugar Shacks are open once again. About 4000 people visited the Chalet des Erables this past Sunday.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: First, we want to go to the animals like I pet a lot of goats and sheep and the horses. And then we went on the little train that goes through the forest. And then we were on the [unintelligible] after that. And that was really nice and we had a delicious meal. Ham, beans, lots of maple syrup, but also we eat potatoes, the egg, omelette.

VOICE 2: Pork rinds and lard.

VOICE 1: Fried crispy ketchup.

VOICE 3: It was delicious. It was good.

VOICE 1: It was fun.

VOICE 3: there was music.

VOICE 1: We used to come every single year. We've been coming since the kids were in day-care, both four years old, and since then, my family's been coming back every single year until, until before COVID. But we're all back here and we're going to come again next year.

VOICE 3: I liked I like revisiting all the memories that I had and what it was like.

VOICE 1: How nice it was to revisit and read all of our memories from childhood. And we always come as a big family, so my sister's here with her three kids as well. And yeah, we're a big group. In three years, we haven't seen this many people. It's all together. But and it's fun. It's amazing. Everyone looks like they're having a great time.

[Music]

MG: Inside it is busy and there is a real festive feel.

SOUNDCLIP

It's a very warm and inviting, comfortable atmosphere. It kind of feels like your grandmother's house or your aunt's house. You know, you have long tables and it's filled with people talking and you hear the chimes of the plates all over the place. An overwhelming amount of number of cars. It's it's actually it's it's heartening to see a very, a very, very different contrast to what we were used to in the cova days.

MG: And of course, there is maple syrup and a feast.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: So we got some eggs, got some bacon, jambon, ham, potatoes, beans. It works. Can't forget the maple syrup. Can't forget the coffee with a bit of maple syrup inside the coffee too. Get inside to come out. Because, you know, it was a nice day and we're excited for like things to start reopening again. And I think, you know, we live in Quebec. And what better way to celebrate that to come to Comaneci?

VOICE 2: I like celebrating the culture. You know, the Quebec was culture. I've been coming here for a long time. You know, every year we try to come. I feel like it starts off this. It's a very, you know, dirty and wet season. But this gives us hope for summer too. It's like a kick off with the good times. The Sun is out and we're smiling.

MG: The Chalet des Erables, is in Sainte Anne De Plaines, Quebec less than an hour's drive north of Montreal. Daniel Lorain owns the operation. His daughter, Stephanie Lorain, is the executive director of the chalet, is Arab, and they both join us now. Good morning.

DANIEL LORAIN: Good morning.

STEPHANIE LORAIN: Good morning.

MG: Daniel, describe that scene. We heard it, but describe what it sounds like on a weekend like the past weekend when, as I said, 4000 people came through.

DANIEL LORAIN: I know. But first of all, I must say, I got really emotional when I heard my time. My customers come in and take their journey to our sugar shack after being closed for two years. I mean, you know, is untrainable incredible, to say the least?

MG: What is it like in there? I mean, when it's busy and it's heaving, Stephanie, describe the vibe.

STEPHANIE LORAIN: The vibe is very like amazing. It's full of family, full of warm in love and so much food with all the sugar. So there is some like excitement and some joy that we cannot explain in words.

MG: You heard one of the customers there talking about how in some ways it feels as though time before COVID. This is a really rough couple of years. Daniel, describe what the last couple of years were like for you.

DANIEL LORAIN: Well, first of all, when the government shut down her business on March 10, that's two years ago. My wife and I, you know, we're crying in the halls and we didn't know what to expect, you know, and we never thought we were going to make it through. That's that's for sure. And during that time, you waited. And there we borrowed a lot of money. We worked really hard, non-stop to save our business. And now we are back on track and we're so happy. We see the family business. That's the main thing. You know, we've been in this and it's been in the family business for 80 years, so we didn't want to lose it.

MG: How close were you to losing it?

DANIEL LORAIN: Oh my God. So close. First we borrow. Like I said, I don't want to put numbers, but we bought a lot of money and I had to sell my house. I live in the sugar factory for a year or two.

MG: You saw all that. You had to sell your house because of this and then you moved into the shack?

DANIEL LORAIN: Oh yeah, for sure. For all the money I could save, you know, this is one thing I had to do. So I did it and I put the money in the business. And you know, the mortgage keeps coming in the electricity bills, taxes, whatever you name it. So it keeps coming and you got to pay him. And that's that's one thing you got to know. You pay the bills.

MG: And you are about to retire as well?

DANIEL LORAIN: Yeah, I was about to retire and my daughter was supposed to take over by herself. And you know, finally, we put so much work to it. So to see the business that day, I'm still here, still around, and I think I'm going to be around for many years to come. But at least, you know, like I said, we lost the eggs, but we haven't lost the end. So we're going to recoup eventually and probably take my retirement sometimes in a couple of years from now.

MG: Stephanie, what was it like it for you, for you to see your father go through this? This is, as you mentioned, a family business been in the family a long time and the pandemic nearly put the shutters to it. What was that like to see your dad go through this?

STEPHANIE LORAIN: It was. It was very hard to see my parents like, as he explained, live in the Sugar Shack and sell this house. And at one point I was like, Oh my gosh, I need to do something, or we're going to lose this family treasure. And last year, when it was our second year in a row that we were close, I just decided to launch Ma Cabane a la Maison to the mailbox and reinvent the Sugar Shack tradition. It save our business. It's save the last a lot of sugar shack. And I'm so happy that we can be here today and reopen our doors to all the Quebecers and receive everyone. But it's it's also hard because we lost so much in the two previous years that were like, it will be very long to to to return to the normal for us.

MG: The Caban a la Maison this is the dinners to go that you made available at grocery stores.

STEPHANIE LORAIN: Yeah, exactly. Last year we launched it with the grocery stores [unintelligible] that helped us to save the Sugar Shack. And with that, we were able to pass through and we found around the Quebecc around maybe more than 100,000 box for all the sugar shack. And it was an amazing response. We received so much love and I think that this is why we keep going to to offer the tradition to the Quebecers

MG: without something like that, though, I mean, you'd never done that before. And without that, do you think that that your father's worst fears would have come to pass and that the business would have closed?

STEPHANIE LORAIN: Oh, no, no, it's not a question for sure. Without Ma Cabane a la Maison, all we like. I think that the bank crop will be the solution for our sugar shack and for a lot of sugar shacks. Also, I think that around 75 percent of the Sugar Shack, we're not sure to be here this year without Ma Cabane a la Maison, and we only lost one. I think so. It was an amazing success.

MG: Daniel, I'll ask you the same question What was it like watching Stephanie, your daughter kind of grab the reins here and the word that people used so much as to pivot in this pandemic, but to try to figure out in a desperate way some way to save this business?

DANIEL LORAIN: Yeah, you just nailed it. It was desperate, a desperate move. But that move really saved her business and saved like many others. And at first, I, you know, I never thought this would have been so much a success as it was and still this year, we're still offering the same service, it was so the response was so overwhelmed that we decided to keep going with the boxes because, as you know, we didn't know in December if we're going to reopen because they shut down all the restaurants. So we thought to ourselves we got to do something things. So we go on with the boxes, the meal kits. So eventually the government changed the rules and they said you'll be able to reopen, OK? And then we had to make decisions, whether we, you know, serve meals or sugar shacks or we go with the boxes. So finally, we had the space in the room to do both. And both are doing great this year, so we are very, very happy.

MG: What does it tell you that people came flooding back not just to the Sugar Shack itself, but as Stephanie mentioned, that people supported the boxes, people understood that this was important to get behind and that they they bought into this?

DANIEL LORAIN: You know, you're totally right, totally right. Sometimes I'd think of it, you know, and I thought to myself, you know, the people were amazing. They responded to the meal kit, the boxes cabinet elements are so well that we were overwhelmed by the orders. And it's, you know, sometimes it makes me very emotional and think of it. And it was also for a grocery store metro, which, you know, they took over the Cabane a la Maison for free. They had pick up points all over the province for free. I mean, they did a tremendous job. I want to thank them personally.

MG: Stephanie, why do you think this tradition is so important? You're seeing people flood back to this, and people were really worried that this tradition could disappear. Why do you think the tradition of the sugar shack is so important?

STEPHANIE LORAIN: I think it's important because this is our identity. In Italy, they do wine and in Quebec we do maple syrup, and it's part of us to receive big group in our home with so much food in the middle of the table. And we like to share. So the caterers are very like, you love to receive people. And I think this is our identity and the sugar shack. It's part of that and we cannot like lose this. This is our tradition. This is our history. And without that, I think that we're going to lose a big part of us. So we receive so much love last year and we were like, Oh my gosh, okay. The people love their sugar shack like they all have. It's like, it's my it's like in marketing, so they have their favourite one. They support their favourite one. Each of the Sugar Shack has their own recipe. There they have it from her, her grandmother. And so it's very important and I think that we need to keep them.

MG: Daniel, for you. Why do you think this tradition is still such a vital thing in Quebec?

DANIEL LORAIN: Well, first of all, our ancestors, the we had harsh winter in Quebec. So when the spring was coming around, it was time to celebrate. We made it through that. That's the, you know, the the the idea behind it. And now we got more to celebrate. You know, if you think of it, you know, we got the cold. It is almost behind us. So we made it through, I guess. But you put both together. What is a better way to celebrate you think of it.

MG: It does feel like it's the beginning of something. When the sap starts to flow and you see those buckets hanging on the sides of trees and the hoses that are out, it gives you the feeling that that long winter that people have been grinding through is on its way out.

DANIEL LORAIN: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. This is I feel this our customers feel in. They were celebrating all over the weekend. It was unbelievable. The atmosphere. Wow. It was awesome.

MG: I really wish you the best. It's great to know that that this tradition has survived. And again, Daniel, in those moments when you were moving into the sugar shack having sold your house, could you have imagined that you would be back to a weekend where 4000 people are coming through and people are celebrating the survival of this tradition?

DANIEL LORAIN: Yeah. Well, you know what? I you know, I was watching the people over the weekend and again, that to myself, it's unbelievable what we went through. But, you know, light goes on and we have to hang on there. And we're so happy and it's hard to describe the emotion I am going through right now. But I'm I have to thank my daughter for what she did.

STEPHANIE LORAIN: Thank you so much, Dad.

DANIEL LORAIN: I'm sorry.

MG: Really, it's really emotional. I mean, it's it's it's more than a business. It's something larger than that.

DANIEL LORAIN: It is actually it is here, so OK, so I I'm going to get back on my feet now. OK, so...

MG: It's great to talk to you both. Thank you very much.

DANIEL LORAIN: Thank you very much for your time. Thank you.

MG: Take care of yourselves. Bye bye. Bye bye. Daniel Lorainis the owner of Chalet des Erables in Sainte Anne des Plaines. His daughter, Stephanie Lorain is executive director.

[Music]

Your digital shadow shouldn't define you, says unwitting star of early viral video

Guest: Ghyslain Raza

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway. These days, there is nothing unusual about a video going viral online. Back in 2003, though, it was a very new phenomenon, one that Ghyslain Raza never imagined happening to him.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: This young man has gone from being a, you know, a geek to an internet icon.

VOICE 2: The striking example of what can happen when your picture appears on the World Wide Web.

VOICE 3: But the attention has made the Star Wars Kid miserable. His parents are even suing the families of the students suspected of posting the video on the web.

MG: You may be familiar with the video in question. It's widely known as Star Wars Kid. In it, a 14 year old Ghyslain exuberantly swings a golf ball retriever like a light saver, battling his way around the A.V. room of his high school in Trois-Rivieres, Quebec. That video appeared on late night talk shows. It was referenced in TV shows like South Park and Arrested Development. The estimates are that it's been watched online, something like a billion times. It wasn't something, though the Ghyslain line ever intended for anyone else to see. And now, almost 20 years later, he's telling his side of the story in a new National Film Board documentary. It's called Star Wars Kid, The Rise of Digital Shadows. Ghyslain Raza. Good morning.

GHYSLAIN RAZA: Good morning. Thanks for having me on the show.

MG: Thanks for being here. I'm fascinated to hear the story of what happened after this video was posted, because I think so many of us saw that video in the moment and didn't know who you are and who you became. But just briefly tell us about the video itself. How did how did this video end up coming to be?

GHYSLAIN RAZA: Yes. I mean, the original context in which the video was made was fairly unremarkable. I was registered in their extracurricular activity at school that the student studio and another student received the task to create a video for an awards ceremony that was to take place at the school. And, you know, he asked me to help him with special effects because he wanted to do a parody of some of the popular movies at the time. So, you know, Star Wars was was one of them. And and you know, we had footage of some student actors for for a clip for that movie. And you know, when one night when evening I sit down at the workstation and I tried to do the famous lightsaber effect? And at the time, I didn't know, but there was a bug in the software and the key framing was just not working well. So I figure maybe if the action is somewhat slower, I can make it work and not having any other footage. I just set up quickly a camera and I make an attempt. And of course, because of the bug, it doesn't work. I make a second attempt a third. And after, you know, so many attempts at the end of the evening, I'm probably a bit frustrated. And I just, you know, I set out for one last attempt and when I'm in front of the camera, I'm like, Nope, you know what? I'm just going to vent some steam. And you know, and goof around basically just for for the fun of it, just for venting steam off. And that's when that famous video was was created. And of course, there was absolutely no intention of, you know, publishing it anywhere or even having other people seeing it. It was just a spur of the moment kind of thing.

MG: How did it end up being public?

GHYSLAIN RAZA: So basically that the, you know, like the video was probably left with the working material at that point, you know, every day we would create different things. So there was nothing unusual about that. But, you know, another student eventually, you know, find the footage and, you know, decided to publish it essentially on the web at that point. There was, you know, peer-to-peer networks that existed at the time. And that's how it really, in a matter of just a few days, reached around the world

MG: in this film, they say that you are patient zero of going viral, that that there were more searches for Star Wars kid at the time than Pamela Anderson online. When did you realise that this video had taken on a life of its own?

GHYSLAIN RAZA: Well, I mean, in the matter of about, if I'm not mistaken, two weeks the story and reached a blogger in in the US, [unintelligible], who ran a popular blog at the time and that attracted and turned the attention of the New York Times. And so about two weeks after it was initially published on the web, it made the story like this story made the front page of the New York Times. And that in turn attracted a lot of attention from general media locally and pretty much around the world as well. So it was I mean, as you've mentioned in the introduction today, this this viral phenomenon is not exactly new, but at the time, it probably was the first time something would go viral at such a large scale in such a short time.

MG: You're a teenager. What was life like for you then? I mean, how did you talk about this in the film? How did it change your life?

GHYSLAIN RAZA: Well, it had a big impact because, you know, initially the reaction on the web and locally was very negative. Certainly there was harassment at school and certainly on the web as well. But of course, once the local media heard of the story, they essentially started to to try to track me down. They weren't at school. They came to my parents home. They, you know, they tried to take a picture of me at any cause. They tried to take a picture through the window blinds. And so there was a lot of diversity, pretty much at every level, very quickly. And of course, the school at that time saw me essentially as a problem. I was, you know, I was essentially bad publicity for the school in their view. And so, you know, after about a month, I had to leave school. I mean, I was told and this was at the end of the school year, but I was told by the school that I was not welcome to go back the following year. So I had to find another school anyway. So pretty much it made for a very, very difficult situation, very quickly.

MG: You took legal action against the families of the classmates who shared that video online. Why was that important for you and your family to do so?

GHYSLAIN RAZA: So the primary reason we decided to do that was to send a message that it was not OK what was happening to me, and I'm not sure that message unfortunately was- when it was understood or that we explained it properly at the time. But but that was part of the motivation, certainly. And of course, in a purely technical basis for my parents, it was, you know, we had to hire people just to manage the attention from the media. Eventually, private lessons were needed for me because, you know, with the circumstances, it was unavoidable. And so the bills kept piling up pretty quickly for my parents. And I think, you know, I think it was fair for them to be compensated in some way for that, for those things.

MG: Why did you want to go back to this 20 years later? I mean, you now you have a degree in law, you're working on your Ph.D., you you. This happened to you, but you are now somebody who has, in some ways, a very different life. Why did you want to go back and talk about this experience in this documentary?

GHYSLAIN RAZA: I think what really, you know, convinced me that this was a project worth doing is when I sat down with the director, met you from you and the journalists in our country then who had this vision of a documentary that would not, you know, strictly focus biographically on what happened, but would use it as a starting point to go beyond the story to to go into reflection. And that's really what interested me in doing this project.

MG: This is a story in many ways about consent, about the power of the internet, but it's also, you say, something really powerful in the film. You're talking to young people at the school that you went to when this happened, you say you don't have to be defined by these kinds of events. What did you mean by that?

GHYSLAIN RAZA: Well, that's right. I mean, I think that's that's the key message in this documentary is that, you know, especially today everyone has a form of digital shadow. Right? Mine might be a little bit larger than most, but but at the end of the day, we all have this sort of double identity with our online life and our real life. And you know, the stories, kid, I often say, I'm not the Star Wars kid, I'm just lying. This is a sort of character to call it that that has its own life separate from me on the web. It was never me. It's not. It's not me, you know, either today. But but there is there is a lesson there that especially if this digital shadow becomes, you know, overpowering, it's important to not let yourself be defined by something external to you. Like that?

MG: What was it like to meet Andy Bhaiya, who is that American blogger who in many ways was was responsible for? Pumping this up on line.

GHYSLAIN RAZA: I mean, Andy was was such a great guy to meet and he, you know, obviously and we can see it in the documentary. He had a lot of remors but he is such an empathetic person. And he truly is humane. And, you know, it gave a very interesting lesson that at such a good person, I can make a mistake, then all of us could have made a mistake similarly. And of course, with new technologies, well, you know, 20 or 30 years ago, a mistake might not have had, a similar mistake, might have had consequences of such a scale. But of course, with these technologies today, like anyone can, can have a moment of, you know, just a simple mistake can have dire consequences. And that's, I think, a lesson for for all of us.

MG: Well, and I was just going to say just before I let you go, I mean, have we learnt much since then? In some ways, it seems like we've learnt a lot. And then what you've just said, in some ways, it seems like we haven't learnt much at all in terms of what can happen when somebody ends up through no fault of their own going viral online.

GHYSLAIN RAZA: I do think we've learnt a lot and just talking to the kids in the documentary. You know, it was an incredible contrast to see that today. You know, the younger generations are so much more aware of consent and you know, they have an empathy that that is probably much more developed than we had when we are, we were their age. And that's very, I think, a message in the documentary that is hopeful, and I think that's something I'm very proud. In this documentary that there is a positive message that sure, there are still serious issues to deal with. But but we have learnt a lot in 20 years, and we might not have reached a destination yet. But but we have, you know, we're on the way there. And certainly, I think the general media today I trust would not treat this story the same way. You know, I was barely 15 years old. They were publishing my name, the name of my school, where I lived my picture. And you know, I think and I'm convinced general media has learnt lessons and something like that would never be allowed to happen the same way again.

MG: We just have a few seconds left, are you? Do you have a very different relationship with the internet now based on what you went through?

GHYSLAIN RAZA: I don't know, I mean, I have a very, I think, mild relationship, I'm using it mostly as a research tool reading the news, these sort of things. But but I mean, that's also what it was before this happened. So it's hard to say if it really changed the way I use the internet. But but but yeah, I suppose I mostly use it as a form of tool, now these days.

MG: you have an incredible story and it's really, really interesting and important to hear what you went through and the resonance that it still has today. I'm glad to talk to you. Thank you very much.

GHYSLAIN RAZA: Well, thank you.

MG: Ghyslain Raza is the subject of a new documentary, Star Wars Kid The Rise of Digital Shadows. It's streaming for free, starting today in both French and English at NFB Dot C A. That is The Current for this Thursday. Coming up next on CBC Radio One, it's q. Daryl Hall of Hall and Oates still has a great voice talking about his solo career coming up in just a moment on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway thanks for listening to The Current. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

The Current Transcript for March 31, 2022

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