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The Current Transcript for May 26, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: theme]

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: And I'm not on the moon. You know, I have a paved road. I have hydro, but as far as the providers are concerned, we're in the middle of nowhere and the infrastructure is simply not in these areas to provide the type of speed that you get in the city.

MATT GALLOWAY: Work from home they said. Well, turns out that's easier said than done for many in this country. While lockdowns continue and schools are closed in many parts of Canada, we're all spending much more time online at home. And that's great if you've got high speed connectivity. You can stream The Last Dance without a hiccup. But for many living in rural areas or even just outside a major centre, Netflix is just a dream. The fight to make high speed Internet a reality for all Canadians coming up in 30 minutes. And later, summer's coming. Do you have big travel plans?

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VOICE: We paid for a service. We paid for a trip. They are the ones who cancelled that trip and we did not receive that service for that trip.

MG: Chances are you aren't going anywhere, but the airlines aren't giving you your money back for those tickets. We'll find out why. Plus, health writer Andre Picard isn't joining the pylon against those of thousands of people who flocked to a park in Toronto this weekend. We'll find out why. But we begin by looking at why Canada's biggest province is failing the test when it comes to testing for COVID-19. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

[Music: theme]

As 'the worst may be yet to come,' WHO assistant chief stresses global unity with vow to review

Guests: Michael Warner, Ashleigh Tuite, Lynora Saxinger

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VOICE: We put the call out to everyone in Ontario. If you have symptoms, if you're worried, you've been in large groups and you're worried about you having COVID or if you're worried you've been in contact with someone who might have had COVID, please go get tested. And I can tell you, I'm so proud. When I drove him and I went by a couple of hospitals and there's a lineup for the first time at Women's College. I just got to thank the people of Ontario. Thank you so much. Because no matter what we do, municipalities do or the province does, we can't do it without the support of the people. People have been absolutely phenomenal. So thank you.

MG: Ontario Premier Doug Ford has been pressing the public for days to go get tested for COVID-19, and now he's thanking them for doing so. The premier announced yesterday that the province will be targeting hotspots of infection and large workplaces as part of its new COVID-19 testing strategy. A formal announcement is expected later this week. The province has been facing criticism though. It's been falling short of its goal to test 16,000 people per day. Meanwhile, as infection rates in other provinces go down fairly consistently, Ontario is one place where there has been a definite uptick in new cases of late. Dr. Michael Warner is the medical director of critical care at Michael Garron Hospital in Toronto. Doctor, good morning.

MICHAEL WARNER: Good morning, Matt.

MG: How concerned are you about the way the numbers look in Ontario when it comes to infection rates, but also when it comes to testing?

MICHAEL WARNER: So with respect to infection rate, it's disappointing that the number of COVID positive cases are increasing. But I think the more important question is within the province of Ontario, where are those cases actually located? Because the COVID-19 epidemic has affected the province in a very different way. And I think they're likely hotspots in certain areas, perhaps in the Greater Toronto Area that need to be focussed on more, whereas other parts of the province are largely unaffected and may be able to ramp up their economic and health, non-COVID health care related activity sooner.

MG: Do we know, I mean, are we testing to figure out where those hotspots are?

MICHAEL WARNER: It's not clear to me. I don't have a good line of sight on the data. I get the numbers just like you do in terms of the number of positive cases. I think there were there was a comment about looking at postcode data. I think that's really important. I can tell you at our hospital, we're actually going to the hotspots that we've identified in our area in testing at those sites so that we can essentially go after COVID-19 instead of letting it come to us.

MG: This is this mobile testing unit or the mobile testing units that you're using?

MICHAEL WARNER: Yes. So there's a apartment complex near our hospital where a majority of our patients come to our ICU or emergency department from where they're COVID positive. And instead of letting those people line up at our assessment centre, we go to them and test them and also distribute cloth masks. So I think epidemiologically it makes sense to go to where the COVID is instead of waiting for people to come to us.

MG: What happens now if somebody in your hospital is diagnosed with COVID-19? What are the public health measures that suddenly kick in in order to track that case?

MICHAEL WARNER: So it's interesting and I've commented on this in the media. For patients who are symptomatic and critically ill, we can commonly make the diagnosis of COVID-19 without waiting for the swab because we've seen enough code to be able to provisionally make that diagnosis and start treating them as if they have COVID. Even if the swab is negative, we would still treat them as if they had COVID. My understanding is that Public Health will follow up on cases once the swab result is positive and if a physician calls in, which I've done myself, that may be able to start the contact tracing efforts sooner. However, the contact tracers, atleast at Toronto Public Health work from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. It's not a 24 hour service and there could be a lag time in getting the test results, whether it be from the hospital or from our assessment centre of up to four days.

MG: And so you're doing some of that contact tracing in some ways yourself? Like the work that you're doing, because you're not waiting for the test to come back, you're able to kind of jumpstart that?

MICHAEL WARNER: Our infection prevention and control team that Michael Garron Hospital has called over 600 patients who have positive COVID tests from our assessment centre and there's been one circumstance where Toronto Public Health contacted that person ahead of us. So we are essentially bypassing that system, being proactive, because those people, I think if they knew they had COVID, would be able to alter their behaviour in a significant way earlier. And then the contact tracing piece is really not our job, but we're trying to make sure public health can start that as soon as possible.

MG: We are weeks and weeks and weeks into this. Why is it that Ontario, the largest province in this country, can't seem to get it right when it comes to testing?

MICHAEL WARNER: I'm not entirely sure. I think that there are likely layers of bureaucracy that make it difficult to be nimble. But I think that local hospitals like ours and other hospitals in Greater Toronto Area have a very good idea of what's happening locally. And perhaps if we had the power, the resources and the ability to go after COVID in our community instead of waiting for the public health bureaucracy to catch up with us, we'd be more successful. Testing needs to be ramped up essentially by an order of magnitude. And then the contact tracing infrastructure to support that has to increase as well. Furthermore, Matt, if someone is told they're COVID positive in their family members need to self isolate, we also need to recognize that it can be very difficult for people who are socially disadvantaged to self isolate when there's 8 people sharing a a two bedroom apartment with one bathroom. So we have to make sure that the instructions we're giving people reflect the circumstances they find themselves in. Maybe we need to find places for people to stay, COVID hotels or something similar, so they can isolate for 14 days because we're seeing that it's the socially disadvantaged atleast in our area who are preferentially affected by COVID.

MG: And yet none of that is in place and yet the province is in the midst of reopening. Phase 1 is underway and there is talk about what Phase 2 could look like. You've said that we have to do the work and we haven't done it yet. Are you concerned about the cart being put before the horse in some ways?

MICHAEL WARNER: Absolutely. I think that it's not an either or thing. You have to get the health care piece right before the economy can open or else we will move backwards. And I think we have to recognize that we probably will move backwards as we open up the economy, because if if we never had to move backwards, we are probably waiting too long to reach certain status. But there's nothing about the public health plan that I've heard because I haven't really heard a plan yet that makes me feel like it makes sense to open up the economy more than what we've done or even what we've done so far. This is not really a public health issue. I see it as a system integration, information management and overall kind of management plan issue. And that requires those skills, that type of organization and attention to detail to make sure that we understand what the preconditions are for us to open up the economy, not just opening up the economy and hoping things will work out.

MG: You said yesterday in a tweet, "without adequate testing and contact tracing, we will be in this holding pattern for months or longer." So if the largest province in the country doesn't get it right, then what does that tell us about where we're going to be going in the next couple of months?

MICHAEL WARNER: I foresee a slow, steady burn for 18 to 24 months unless things change dramatically and I think they'll be very difficult for people to handle. If you put in the work and make sure that public health has the resources cause that's an important piece as well and go after the virus instead of this passive approach of testing whoever shows up to an assessment centre, I don't see us getting ahead of this. We have to be proactive and identify hotspots and identify where in the province we could actually start activity, including non-COVID related health care. To treat the province as one unit doesn't make a lot of sense, but also doesn't make a lot of sense to, you know, test 16,000 people a day in a province of 14 and a half million.

MG: Just a couple of seconds left. This is one province. What does this mean for the rest of the country?

MICHAEL WARNER: I think different provinces are at different stages. B.C. and Newfoundland, I think are much further ahead than we are and there are probably multiple reasons for that. But I think it's foreseeable that there will be second waves and just about every province to make sure that there's some type of federal plan to make sure we understand the data that we learned from each other, that we can identify hotspots essentially before they occur and and deal with them and recognize that as the economy opens up, there could be more interprovincial commerce and travel, especially if the borders United States stays closed. So this is still a national problem and we need to share ideas and perhaps have a national strategy for public health as opposed to a provincial one and a municipal one.

MG: Doctor, great to speak with you. Thank you.

MICHAEL WARNER: Thanks, Matt.

MG: Dr. Michael Warner, medical director of critical care at Michael Garron Hospital in Toronto. Some other provinces seem to be getting a handle on things. As you mentioned, Manitoba, New Brunswick and all three territories where some of the regions that started the week with no new cases at all and that is a stark contrast to the province of Ontario. Ashleigh Tuite has been watching the numbers. She's an infectious disease epidemiologist at the Dalla Lana School of Public Health at the University of Toronto. Ashleigh, good morning to you.

ASHLEIGH TUITE: Good morning.

MG: How much of what is happening in Toronto where there have been and not just on Toronto, but it's largely centred, it seems like, in Toronto, but across the province where there have been new cases over 400 in the last several days. How much of that has to do with the way testing and contact tracing has been going?

ASHLEIGH TUITE: I mean, it's a complicated situation in terms of identifying exactly what is going on here. I think as Dr. Werner was saying, there's a little bit of a disconnect here in terms as this reopening of of the province. At the same time that we really don't have a good handle on the testing and contact tracing. A big part of relaxing, the physical distancing that we've had in place is dependent on the fact that we're able to identify cases by testing contact tracing. And at this point, you know, we we're still figuring this out. We're still not testing as many people as we want to. We're still not doing contact tracing to the extent that we would want to be such that we would feel confident relaxing the physical distancing. So I think, again, I agree a lot with what Dr. Warner said in terms of, you know, this is a little bit cart before the horse.

MG: There's a real focus on the number of tests. Do we miss anything by focusing on that number?

ASHLEIGH TUITE: I don't think focusing on the number is necessarily particularly important. I think it's more about being strategic. So rather than, you know, obsessing over are we getting 19.000 people tested today, we need to have a coherence plan in place. So are we testing the the people that we want to get tested? So, you know, we talked a little bit about hot spots or particular occupations where people are at higher risk. Are we going out there and finding those people? Being a little bit less passive and more active in terms of finding cases. And also, you know, we also want to find cases where we're not looking. So. So, you know, whether or not we hit that target, I think is not so important. It's more do we have a sense that we're catching all of the disease that we think is happening across the province?

MG: Is your sense that we have the data to be able to say where those hot spots are?

ASHLEIGH TUITE: Again, based on what's publicly available, that's not so clear. I think certain regions of the province have been providing that information in the form of maps. I think local public health does have that information and are using it, but it's not necessarily being communicated to the public.

MG: The other part of that is Michael Warner was talking about contact tracing and the fact that at his hospital they're taking this on themselves, that they're going around delays in the province and following up with people who have tested positive for COVID-19. Why is that follow up so important?

ASHLEIGH TUITE: So the reason the follow up is so important is because that's how the we get a handle on this. So we want to be stopping chains of transmission. And the way we do that is once we find a case, we find all of their contacts and try and get them to quarantine or self isolate before there they go out into the community and spread to other people. So we really need to do that quickly because COVID spreads very quickly. And if you don't find those contacts, you know, in a matter of days, those people can go on to be infectious and spread transmission or sorry spread disease and we're not going to break those chains of transmission. And that's really what we need to be doing right now.

MG: But what would hold that up? We've known that this has been important. We've seen other jurisdictions take this on. And it seems like we've been talking about the importance of contact tracing for weeks and weeks now. What would hold something like that up?

ASHLEIGH TUITE: So I think the challenge is is less around, you know, knowing what we need to do. And, you know, we have very, very good people working in public health in terms of knowing how to do contact tracing. The issue is more around data systems. So we have a bunch of legs built into the system, so by the time somebody goes to get tested until they get their test result back, until we start the contact tracing process, that all takes time. And so, you know, that's sort of an archaic data system that's in place and it's been around for a while. I was working during H1N1 and we were having the same conversations then around the slowness with these turnaround time. So it's really more of an infrastructure, an I.T. issues, I think and less of a, you know, we know what we need to do. It's just how do we do it?

MG: It seems as though other jurisdictions are having more success with this. Alberta has been on the frontlines of testing during this pandemic. Lynora Saxinger here is an infectious disease physician, associate professor as well with the University of Alberta in Edmonton and has been listening in. Lynora, good morning to you.

LYNORA SAXINGER: Good morning to you.

MG: What is happening in Alberta that has allowed that province to do so well when it comes to testing and contact tracing?

LYNORA SAXINGER: I think that the number of tests per day capacity is kind of largely cut up across the country, but very early on we have a fairly centralised kind of one health region system which can be bureaucratic, but also can be very, very useful for trying to co-ordinate a response quickly. And our lab directors and procurement people had recognised even before the end of January that there was a pandemic threat and had developed the coronavirus testing, really using kind of as a routine respiratory viral testing to be able to find the new coronavirus quite quickly after they published the sequence of the virus. And so we had some testing in place and they also were very good at ramping up the testing, including at one point they basically didn't didn't have they were running the testing 24/7 for a period of time and only stopping when they ran out of reagents because that was a problem for a while, getting access to the actual materials needed to do the tests. And so because we had testing in place quite early, even though, of course, everyone always wants more testing and faster testing. It was actually pretty good. And we also had a centralised intake line where the current testing strategy was was incorporated for everyone. So at least although no one was happy, everyone had the same rules and there was an effort to adjust, like adjust the definition of who should be prioritised for testing as we got more capacity. And as things were evolving locally. And I think that really made a difference in helping us stay on top of the spread. And at the moment, we're actually not testing at capacity anymore, although our criteria for testing are actually quite open right now.

MG: Part of this is about also just trying to figure out who should be tested. Ashleigh, how clear have government officials in Ontario, as well as health officials been in terms of who should get tested and when they should be tested?

ASHLEIGH TUITE: I think that that's been a challenge. It's you know, we were hearing conflicting messaging. We certainly heard anecdotally a lot of stories of people who are showing up at test centres and being turned away. So I think over the past couple days, there's clearly been a push to to make it clearer that people will not get turned away if they show up for testing.

MG: Although then this weekend we had, what, thousands of people in this park in downtown Toronto. The premier says anyone who is there should go and get tested and that public health officials say a few hours later that they, you know, they should be monitored for 14 days. And it seems like there's a real mixed message there. I just wonder what the impact of that mixed message is Ashleigh?

ASHLEIGH TUITE: Yeah. No, it's a challenge. And, you know, it goes beyond testing in terms of behaviours, in terms of, you know, do sort of people understanding what they should and shouldn't be doing right now. I think, you know, ideally we should have a single coherent message. And and ideally, I think that should be coming from Public Health. I think we should have someone who really takes on that that role and that communication role. And I understand the premier's frustration and particularly around the situation at Trinity Ballads that I think ultimately need to have very clear guidance from public health officials.

MG: Lynora are you seeing that in Alberta, clear guidance and a clear message to people about who should and shouldn't get tested?

LYNORA SAXINGER: Yeah, I think that we've had a really clear public health voice, which has helped a lot in people knowing what's going on. And I think that that currently our testing is is really aimed at people with symptoms, even minimal symptoms and in strategic places for high risk workers and contacts in outbreaks. We've had a couple of very large outbreaks, which thankfully have been able to be contained. So I think the centralized voice in the centralized approach has actually made a big difference here, honestly.

MG: How concerned are you there that these two big provinces, Ontario, also Quebec, seem to be struggling with testing, Lynora?

LYNORA SAXINGER: I think it makes a big difference in terms of what Canada functions like as a whole, because I think the next big question on everyone's mind is in terms of normalcy, it's nice that we can go to the you know, go to stores now more easily, if we're taking precautions, et cetera. But interprovincial travel and some businesses that really rely a lot more on connectivity between provinces, I think are things that are more questionable when there's a higher gradient of risk, if that makes sense. I don't think it's a good idea for us to be travelling across gradients of risk because then we're equalizing risk and probably bringing it up across the country. So I think everyone wants everyone to get things under control and highly populated hub provinces, I think especially are very important in that.

MG: Ashleigh, in in the remaining seconds that we have, from your perspective, what are the consequences if provinces like Ontario and Quebec can't get it together when it comes to testing?

ASHLEIGH TUITE: I think we're going to have this long slow burn in terms of, you know, not necessarily being able to open up as we want. And I think, I wouldn't be surprised if we started seeing advisories not to travel to Ontario and Quebec as the rest of the country gets things under control.

MG: It's great to speak with you both about this and we'll talk again, I'm sure. In the meantime, thank you very much.

ASHLEIGH TUITE: Thank you.

LYNORA SAXINGER: Thank you.

MG: Lynora Saxinger is an infectious disease physician and professor with the University of Alberta. Ashleigh Tuite is an infectious disease epidemiologist at the University of Toronto. I should mention that we did ask to speak with the Ontario Health Minister, Christine Elliott, as well as the chief medical officer of health, Dr. David Williams. Neither was made available to speak with us this morning. The CBC News is next and then.

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[Sound of dial-up internet]

MG: There's a whole generation of people who go, what is that? For another generation, that's kind of a triggering sound. The nightmare of beeps and blips and screeches of dial-up might be a thing of the past for some, access to reliable high speed Internet is still out of reach for many Canadians. We will talk about working from home without the internet. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. We're back in six minutes. Stay with us.

[Music]

Minister of rural development 'open' to internet access becoming public utility

Guests: Nancy Boss, Jeff Boss, Laura Tribe, Maryam Monsef

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

[Music: theme]

MG: Still to come, a fight is brewing between airlines and passengers. But first, living and working from home without reliable internet.

[Music: theme]

MG: Never before has life been so online for so many of us since the great lockdown locked us in. Work, for those are lucky enough to be able to do it over the Internet has moved online. So has school and medical appointments and shopping and socializing and entertainment. Basically everything, which means that if your Internet lags, your life lags with it. Just 40 percent of rural households in Canada have access to high speed Internet today. In a few moments, we'll hear from the Minister for Rural Economic Development. But first, the Boss', Nancy and Jeff, are on the line from their home in a rural area near Hamilton, Ontario. Good morning to you both.

JEFF BOSS: Good morning.

NANCY BOSS: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Nancy, how has Internet access been for you during this pandemic?

NANCY BOSS: Well, it's been a challenge, to say the least. I'm a high school teacher, and Jeff and I have four children, three of whom are in school. And trying to balance, of course, home life with homeschooling and my own job as a teacher, I mean, it's a challenge enough, but the fact that we have rural Internet has been a huge challenge. I am struggling daily with my lessons. I can't do live lessons as the minister of education is requiring us to. I think he refers to it as synchronous learning. And it's really hard for our kids to participate in their lessons. And they really, it's sad, they can't chat with their friends or they miss very much. And it's just, it's a daily struggle for us.

MG: So all of the things, I mean you hear the stories of people, you know, they're binge watching on Netflix, The Tiger King and they're Zooming calls with their friends and family. You laugh, is any of that possible, Nancy?

NANCY BOSS: No. We got rid of Netflix. So the kids, we have a great DVD collection. So the kids are exploring that. And unfortunately, we've tried to do the Zoom call, but after we've had a few family calls, we check in with our data and we realize, oh, my goodness, we've used a week's worth of data in a half an hour phone conversation with our family. So we just have to shut it down. Like it's just not feasible for us.

MG: Jeff, how remote and rural are you?

NANCY BOSS: Not very. Like we live in Flamborough. We're about five minutes north of Waterdown. So we're about 10 minutes away from downtown Hamilton. About 10 or 15 minutes away from Burlington. So we're not in the middle of nowhere, but we live on like a rural concession road.

MG: Did you know about this Internet issue before you moved into your house? You've been there for about a year and a half or so?

JEFF BOSS: Yeah, we've been here about two and a half years. We moved from Milton. And when we were in Milton, we had broadband internet. Didn't even think twice about it. And when we moved out here, it wasn't made known to us that we didn't have access to broadband Internet. But we found that out shortly after we moved in and tried to sign up as a customer with Cogeco or with Bell and learned that that just wasn't possible. Bell didn't even service the area. And the Cogeco cable runs about 100 meters from our house and then turns up another road and we asked them to run it out this way and they quoted us $27,000.

MG: What? They wanted to they wanted $27000 to run a cable, what, 100 meters down the road?

JEFF BOSS: Correct. And not on our property, just down down a public road. Now, it becomes interesting because we asked them at the time if they could provide that in a written quote. And they declined to do that, saying that they would only provide a written quote once they had received half of the money.

MG: Yikes. In the meantime, you are without that high speed Internet, Nancy. You talked about what it means for your work as a teacher. What does it mean for your kids in terms of trying to learn kids like you would know are now in this situation where their distance learning and whether it's happening in real time or not, there's still a lot of interaction online. How does that work?

NANCY BOSS: Well, like I said, they're unable to participate, I would say in more than half of the activities, like the teachers are being so great and providing really interesting things for them to do. But a lot of it has to do with accessing online programs, online reading, maths, you know, a lot of YouTube lessons that they are supposed to listen and answer questions. And we're just supplementing numeracy and literacy activities for the kids because they just they just can't do it. So I kind of sent out an email to all the kid's teachers at the beginning of all this and said, I'm really sorry. Like due to our lack of Internet, we just we can't participate as fully as we would like.

MG: They're lucky to have a teacher as a mom.

NANCY BOSS: I don't know if my kids would agree with you.

MG: Maybe not. Jeff, you're a police officer. What does this mean for your work?

JEFF BOSS: It doesn't affect my work directly, but what it does do is as as a frontline worker, I'm exposed more often to possible incidences of COVID. So, it means that as things that open up, I'm still having a pause as to whether or not I should be visiting my parents and my in-laws and, you know, elderly relatives and stuff like that. And so it would be really nice to be able to be in touch with Zoom and similar applications, but again, that's just not feasible for us. Other than very, very rarely and for very short periods of time.

MG: Could you hotspot off a cell phone, for example?

JEFF BOSS: We can. Like we do have that, but again, we as everybody with a cell phone knows, data is limited. And if you go over either the fees are huge or what we've done is we now have the plans that are unlimited. But as soon as you cross over a threshold, it slows down to just a a snail's pace. Not enough to video chat or do anything like that, just enough to kind of check email or something like that.

MG: Can I ask how much, how expensive this gets in terms of going over your data cap on home internet?

JEFF BOSS: Yeah. So our our monthly our monthly bill for Internet is about 150 bucks for about 100 gigs over the LTE network. And then if we go over, as we have on a couple of months where we're not careful and watching and checking in, we've had bills in four to five hundred dollar range.

MG: Wow.

JEFF BOSS: For a month. Yeah.

MG: How does it feel? I mean, if you were quiet outside, you could probably hear downtown Hamilton roaring away in the background. How does it feel to know that you're that close and yet that cut out from the, you know, modern society in terms of the way that people connect, Nancy?

NANCY BOSS: It's well, it's I mean, we kind of laughed, but really definitely I said, you know, it's if we had a nickel for every time, every time we had a conversation about, oh, you can't use the Internet. OK, guys, turn-off, you know, you can't chat with your friends. Like it's a daily conversation. Like it's frustrating. If you had a nickel for every time we'd have enough money to get Cogeco to run a line. You know, it's just it's a constant, it's a daily thing and it just takes a lot of our energy and our focus. And I mean, you're asking, you know, Hamilton's right there. It just seems insane.

MG: Are there any solutions, Jeff, that you think would provide an easy fix aside from running that cable 100 yards down the road?

JEFF BOSS: There is another option. Bell has announced that they're they're running a program of wireless home Internet. As I understand it, that they're using the existing LTE towers to do a kind of a point to point. They put a small dish on your house and that one is much more reasonable. I think it's about $50 or $60 a month for 350 gigs, which would be more than enough for us. But again, that's a proximity issue. So we have a friend that lives about a kilometre down the road. And she's been able to get it, but it doesn't quite reach us. We've been told that it's expanding, but they have no timelines and won't give an answer as to when or if that'll be available to us.

MG: It's like you live in some sort of bubble that has prevented you from getting your access.

JEFF BOSS: Yeah we're in like a little deadzone.

MG: I'm sorry about that. I hope that the dead zone does not continue and that you're able to connect. In the meantime, it's great to speak with you both. Stay well, thank you.

JEFF BOSS: Thanks very much Matt.

NANCY BOSS: Thank you Matt.

MG: Nancy Boss is a teacher. Jeff Boss is a police officer. They're in Flamborough, which is, as you heard, just 10 minutes outside of the city of Hamilton, Ontario. My next guest has been campaigning for universal access to high speed Internet in Canada since well before this pandemic began. Laura Tribe is executive director of the non-profit Open Media. She's in Ottawa. Laura, good morning to you.

LAURA TRIBE: Good morning.

MG: What you make of that? This couple is just outside of a major city and they are cut off from high speed Internet. Have no way to not just watch the things that people are watching, but do the work and connect in the way that we are being forced to because of this pandemic.

LAURA TRIBE: Yeah. I mean, I think Nancy and Jeff really captured so many stories that we're hearing at Open Media from community members across the country who are so close to cities, but unable to get access or so close to towns that can't get access or in towns that have bad access. And I think, you know, it's frustrating to look at people that are 10 minutes from Hamilton. What does that mean for people that are an hour or two hours away from Hamilton and what is their chance of getting connectivity? And there are a lot of concerns that we're hearing long before this pandemic began, but definitely exacerbated by the fact that everything is now fundamentally online only. And what that's going to really mean for people over the short term, as well as the ability to come out of this pandemic stronger.

MG: In 2020, do we know how many Canadians don't have reliable high speed Internet?

LAURA TRIBE: So right now, with the most available data that we have from the CRTC, our federal regulator, 1 in 10 million households doesn't have a home Internet connection at all. So that means that there is nothing in their house at all. When it comes to rural Canada, we're looking at, as you said in the beginning, about 40 percent have access to what the CRTC defines as basic broadband speeds of 50 down and 10 upload. When we look at First Nations reserves, that's even lower. That's at 31 percent have access. And so it's not a small issue and I think the problem is that before the pandemic, so many families like that, which we just heard from, we're able to kind of bridge the gap. They could make it into their office, they could make it into school. They could use Tim Hortons Wi-Fi or the libraries and now those options aren't available. And so those numbers feel a lot more stark because it really is an on off switch for who has access to the Internet if you don't have a home Internet connection.

MG: As you mentioned, you've been working on this for a long time and this has been an issue for a long time. Why is it so difficult to address?

LAURA TRIBE: It's expensive. It's a really big project and it's really expensive. And I think the problem that we've seen to date is that you ask governments over time have all relied on really the telecom companies taking the lead. And the problem is that for a lot of companies, that's just not profitable. And when they are ultimately responsible to their shareholders, that's who they're going to put first, not the people that need service. And so what we're really hoping is that, you know, this pandemic, if nothing else, can really highlight just how critical the Internet is and the role the government needs to play in making that happen. Because if we keep waiting for government or pardon me for telecoms to feel like it's something that they should do or that they can profit from, it's just never going to happen for some people in Canada. And this is something that needs to be treated like an essential service.

MG: There are people, I want to talk with, but you can imagine there are people who are listening and maybe they already have high speed Internet who would say really an essential service. Why is this in all the things that people are facing right now, why is this such a big deal? What would you say to them?

LAURA TRIBE: We saw data come out in the past few weeks that rural Canadians are seeing speeds that are 12 times slower than that what people in urban areas are getting. And that's for people who do have an Internet connection in rural Canada. So if you picture driving along the highway at 120 kilometres an hour versus 10 kilometres an hour, that's a really big difference. That's the difference between getting somewhere on time. It's the difference in the in the Internet landscape of being able to actually join a video conference, being able to watch a movie, being able to do your homework. You know, we're hearing from people in our community who are worried about not being able to go back to school in the fall because they were sent home from universities to a place that doesn't have Internet. How are they going to finish their education? For people who are trying to work from home, it's the risk from either having to go into an office that is unsafe or not being able to pay rent because you can't actually work from home.

MG: And so now is the time you say, to talk about this as an essential service. People have suggested that the Internet could be a public utility. What would that mean?

LAURA TRIBE: So the CRTC in 2016 ruled that is a basic service. That it is something of a part of our communications packages that everyone should have access to. As an essential service, it really means the government is obligated to ensure connectivity. The same way that you are guaranteed electricity or water, you would be guaranteed that there's Internet available to you. And I think when we look at how this pandemic has impacted people, there's no question that this is something that people are relying on to keep alive, to stay out of trouble, to stay safe, and something that the government should be prioritising and rolling out to all of Canada, including rural Canada.

MG: I'm going to be speaking with the minister responsible, Maryam Monsef, in just a moment and I'm not predicting the future, but I can imagine that she's going to say that the federal government has announced that it's going to speed up its rollout of high speed Internet now., Is that welcome news? Is that going to address this situation?

LAURA TRIBE: Absolutely. But we don't know exactly what that means. So what I'm really curious to hear from the minister is what does speed up mean? Does that mean getting money out the door faster or does that mean actually giving all of the money required to make this happen? You know, the current government's plan says 2030. You know, for those living in rural Canada, 10 years from now, feels like a long time to wait to be able to check in on your grandma and have a Xoom call or finish your education. And so we really need those targets up not by one or two years, but exponentially faster. And I think the government's current plan is great. It has set a really ambitious target of making sure runs connected, but it doesn't guarantee that the government will fund it. It still relies on private companies to match that money. And this is really where we've run into problems in the past. And so, you know, what I hope we will see from the minister is details of what exactly does that look like, when can people expect to be connected and can they guarantee that government is going to see this project through from start to finish without relying on companies like Bell, Telus and Rogers, who have been using rural Canadians as pawns for the past few years. Whenever they don't get their way in a policy decision, you know, threatening to withhold connectivity for people that don't have it. And I think that's really where we need to make sure this is fundamentally frim to something the government is committed to seeing happen.

MG: But as you said, this is expensive, but it's also the a big country. How quickly could something like this happen?

LAURA TRIBE: I mean, we heard Minister Monsef yesterday talking on Ottawa radio saying these projects take two to three years. I think the real problem in why these projects are taking so long is that the funding is not rolling out. So it's taken four years for the CRTC is commitments to fund rail broadband and they haven't ruled out a dollar yet since 2016. The government announced in 2019, in March, universal connectivity targets of 2030 and hasn't spent a dollar yet. And we don't even know what the fund is or how to apply. And so a lot of the delay is actually in the process, not in the projects themselves. And I think when you're in rural Canada right now, we need to look for that long term solution of building that high speed so that everyone ever has access. But we also need those short term solutions to make sure that where there are projects that can go now, they get moving.

MG: Laura Tribe, it's good to speak with you about this. Thanks.

LAURA TRIBE: Thank you so much.

MG: Laura. Tribe is the executive director of the non-profit Open Media. She is in Ottawa. Maryam Monsef is the Minister for Rural Economic Development. She has been listening into this conversation. Minister, good morning to you.

MARYAM MONSEF: Good morning and enjoying it too.

MG: Thank you for joining us. Since this pandemic began, you have been saying that plans were rolling at high speed Internet to rural areas has been accelerated. And so I'll pick up on Laura's question. What does that mean?

MARYAM MONSEF: Well, I want to thank Laura as well as Nancy and Jeff for sharing their stories and Laura for her advocacy. If folks are looking for funding right now, CRTC website has opened the second phase of its call for applications and those applications are open until June 1st. We were ready to go with the Universal Broadband Fund, which is the next level of our investments before COVID. But then COVID happened. So what we're doing now is adding a COVID lens to this investment. We're hearing from smart people across the country who are saying they can help us accelerate our target. So we're fine tuning that plan and within a very short period of fun, we'll roll out the funds. And I want to assure everybody who's listening as someone who lives in a rural urban community, too, that we get the problem, we are on it. We were on it before COVID and we are working to get it done faster with any partner who wants to work with us.

MG: But being on it is one thing, actually seeing something happen is another matter entirely. And so, again, you've been saying that this has been accelerated. And Laura said, what, like what's actually being done? What specifically has been done? You're saying that you're listening to more people. That's what's being done?

MARYAM MONSEF: Well, we have the first plan in Canada's history to connect Canadians. It's been developed with partners who are in the sector. We have the largest investment set aside. Some money has not been delivered, limiting factor. There's six billion dollars set aside.

MG: But none of that money has been spent yet? The reality is that none of that money has gone out the door. Has it?

MARYAM MONSEF: It has. Yes, of course it has. We've been working on this since 2016 and one million households who did not have any plans to get connected to high speed Internet are now well underway to get connected. You also asked Matt how many people are left. One million are on the way to getting connected. We need to connect the remaining two million Canadians, because as you mentioned and as your interviewees mentioned, this isn't just about economic development. This is about the fundamental human need to stay connected. And when we say we're on it, the political will is there. The plans are there are partners on the ground are ready to go. And of course, the funding is there, too. So if adjustments need to be made, we will make them we will accelerate processing of applications on our end. We'll even go a step further, Matt, and we will help. Smaller communities who don't have capacity for grant writing like larger ones do, will help hold their hands to the process. And right now, I encourage all the hardworking municipal leaders, indigenous leaders, provinces and territories to if you have ideas and plans to get your community connected to the Internet, start the coordinating so that once we put the federal investments out, you are ready to go to put your best foot forward.

MG: But just to be clear, as Laura saying, two and a half months into the pandemic, there hasn't been a dollar more spent that already wasn't out the door already. Is that correct? No additional money has been spent.

MARYAM MONSEF: No, but as recently as last week, wires were going into the ground and work was on the way, and let me be clear about something else, Matt. We believe that the federal government plays a strong leadership in this effort. These are big projects. We have to future proof them. They take at least two to three years. But we also believe that other partners, like the private sector, like indigenous communities, like municipalities, like provinces and territories, play a role too.

MG: Let me ask you. Well, pardon me for interrupting, but let me ask about the private sector. Laura said that those big telecoms Bell, Telus, Rogers are playing people in rural communities like pawns. Do you agree with her?

MARYAM MONSEF: Yes, I've heard that.

MG: Do you agree with her?

MARYAM MONSEF: I would I would tell Laura that just before cold it hit in January, we introduced a new Internet code of conduct to address the issues around contract, around barriers to switching providers, around the cost of bills. So we are on that too. We get that there needs to be a competitive work environment, a competitive market for this, but we believe that consumers need to be put first and need to be treated fairly.

MG: But is there anything that you can do if these companies say that it's not in their financial interest to build towers in rural communities, that their responsibility isn't to Canadians, it's to shareholders. Is there anything that you can do to force them to move those projects ahead faster?

MARYAM MONSEF: So one of the things that has happened over the past few years is Canada's back bone infrastructure has been significantly enhanced and we're hearing from people like Jeff and Nancy, who are really, really close to two centres, whether it's towns or cities. But we are the last mile left to connect. So one of the things that the federal government can do is to invest in that last mile where the business case for the private providers is not the same. Once we do connect Canadians though, those investments will pay off because that connectivity leads to economic development and a higher quality of life.

MG: Do you believe that we should, as a nation, consider the internet, as a public utility, like water, like electricity, and that that way we would not depend on these big Internet service providers who answer to shareholders.

MARYAM MONSEF: That's a really interesting question Matt and Stu asked this on CBC Ottawa morning yesterday. Right now, as I said, what COVID has done is create an opportunity for a resurgence of good ideas, and that's a good idea that I'm open to.

MG: So do you support the idea of the Internet being a public utility?

MARYAM MONSEF: I believe it's an essential service and I'm open to the idea and one of the things that my officials and I are working on is adding and tweaking what we were ready to roll out before COVId. And this is among the many good ideas that we are considering. What are the pros? What are the cons? How do we get it done? Who's on board?

MG: Just in the last few seconds that we have, how concerned are you that as we come out of this pandemic, there are people, whether it's Jeff and Nancy who are living 10 minutes outside of Hamilton, whether it's people in a First Nation, whether it's people who are in remote communities who are going to be left behind because they don't have high speed Internet.

MARYAM MONSEF: I am deeply concerned by this. This pandemic has revealed cracks in our foundation as a society. It's also revealed the strength in our system. And you know, Ralph Goodale, our former public health minister, used to tell us that, you know, when a flood happens, the flood itself is hard, the vulnerable become even more vulnerable, but the hard part isn't the flood itself. It's the cleanup up after the surveying of the damage and it's a rebuild and the recovery. And for all of those nice days is ahead of us ensuring that there isn't a rural urban divide. Ensuring that everybody's able to move forward and recover is a priority for our government. And Matt, when I say that we are considering all options, it's because we all know people who live in the rural remote parts of our countries and we all want to see Canada recover as quickly as possible and become even stronger on the other side of this pandemic.

MG: Maryam Monsef, it's good to speak with you. Thank you.

MARYAM MONSEF: You too, Matt.

MG: Maryam Monsef is the Minister for Rural Economic Development. She's in Ottawa. If you find yourself waiting for high speed Internet to come to your community, we'd love to hear which you make of what the minister said and what it's like to be part of that digital divide. You can reach us, it might be slow connecting, through the website at cbc.ca/thecurrent or send us an email thecurrent@cbc.ca. Coming up in about 90 seconds, health columnist Andre Picard from The Globe and Mail is here. That's on its way. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

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Why the shame game isn’t the answer to people gathering in parks says Andre Picard

Guests: Andre Picard

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. It was a day in the park heard around the country this past weekend as temperatures rose and some lockdown measures eased. Thousands of people gathered in Toronto's Trinity Bell Woods Park. Photos of sunbathers and picnickers clustered together, flooded social media, sparking a wave of outrage. City and provincial leaders warned that the floating of physical distancing guidelines could lead to a spike in new COVID-19 infections. Andre Picard is back with us to discuss this and other matters. He is the Globe and Mail's health columnist. He's in Montreal. Andre, good morning.

ANDRE PICARD: Good morning.

MG: How surprised were you by the response those photos sparked over the weekend?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, you know, it's disconcerting to see all these people crowded into a park during a pandemic. And, you know, some of them were behaving irresponsibly. But I thought to myself, and it's easy to just call them names and be angry, but why don't we give some thought to why did this happen? How could it have been prevented? What can we learn from it? And I think the message we have to take away is that this is a bit of a response to poor communication. All this was totally predictable and preventable. That's a very popular park. We knew people would go there, but nothing was done. And then everyone's outraged in retrospect and I don't find that very useful.

MG: People were outraged in part because most people have been playing, I think, by the rules. People haven't been going out and gathering. People haven't been seeing friends or family. And then they see a group, you know, thousands, maybe up to 5000, 10000 people in a park hanging out on a hot, sunny day. And they say that it has something to do with personal responsibility.

ANDRE PICARD: Well, there is some personal responsibility, but again, you see, we saw this in Vancouver, we saw this in Montreal. These things are gonna happen. People are going to stir crazy. They're going to get outside. And it all it's almost self-perpetuating. You walk by that park and there's 100 people at 10:00 in the morning. Hey, looks like a good place to sit and have a picnic. Everybody else is doing it. So why why didn't the city intervene earlier? You know, when there are 100 people instead, when there were thousands. This could have been dissipated maturely or we could have. They knew that people are going to go watch the cherry blossoms. So they stopped that. Why didn't they know that they gather in Trinity Bellwood Park, where they've done every weekend that's sunny since the dawn of time.

MG: You wrote that's dismissing everyone in the park as Covidiot or a sinner with no regard to why they're there or offering any alternatives is wrong. Tell me a bit more about what the city, from your perspective, could have done to prevent something like this from happening in the first place.

ANDRE PICARD: Well, I think intervening early when there are a couple of hundred people there instead of thousands. I think recognising that all the people we know that neighbourhood is a lot of condos, small apartments. People were yearning for some green space, offers some alternatives, open up some bike path to all the things that the other cities did when they had similar problems. So, again, I think so much of this was preventable and avoidable.

MG: What sort of reaction did you get when you wrote that piece?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, I quickly got lumped into the Covidiot group. You know, you can't do everybody should be 100 percent responsible all of the time and how dare these young people. I think there is a lot of unrelated rage going on there about this demographic of so-called hipsters, et cetera. But as I said to many people, I don't see similar outrage when, you know, 500 people in the suburbs gather at Costco in the parking lot not socially distancing. These are similar issues. And you have to understand why they're happening. They're happening because people are frightened. People are not sure what to do. People say, yeah, the rules are important, but maybe not for me. And when you have thousands of people starting to think like that, it's because you've not convinced them that this is important or that the rules are not clear and the rules on social gathering material are not clear. You know, with five people within a household. But there's exceptions to that. And I don't think these strict numbers are what we have to care about. I think we have to care about the larger picture.

MG: Do you want to see, I mean there were images that came out of San Francisco. It was a glorious weekend there and in big parks there, Dolores Park, for example, there were circles that were kind of painted in the grass. So people knew kind of where to be and where not to stray from. Is that the approach as things start to warm up across the country and people are looking for some sort of relief to get out of the lockdown that they've been in?

ANDRE PICARD: I think that's a big lesson we can take from Trinity Bellwood is people do need more guidance. So circles in the park. What's wrong with that? When I wrote that, people said, well, you know, why do you have to give people circles? And I said, well, why do you have to give them two meter lines outside of a store? These are all guidance. Why do we have lines on the highway? People should know to stay to the right. Just make it easier to follow the rules and people will follow the rules when you know, when there's a little muddling. Oh, well, I'm not two meters, I'm a meter and a half, then it becomes a meter, then you're on top of each other. Make it clear what the rules are.

MG: The other issue, I heard this from somebody who works in an emergency department, she was really concerned about pandemic fatigue. That people in some ways have thrown in the towel that they're tired of it. They're tired of being told what to do and that they're going to go rogue, in her words. Do you worry about that?

ANDRE PICARD: I think there's no question we have to worry about fatigue, but we also have to recognize that this was never designed to be forever. This was we're supposed to have an easing and we will and we must have an easing of the rules, but we have to do it in a more organised fashion. It can't maybe can be a few hundred people in the park, not several thousand. We have to figure out a way of doing these things gradually, but it's not clear how do we do that? Gradually the message has been, I think a little bit, too, but it hasn't been unclear. It's been dogmatic. Stay at home, stay at home. It's not realistic for the vast majority of people after two months.

MG: In the backdrop of all of this, we're seeing a rising rate of new COVID infections in Ontario. How troubling is that?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, it is troubling. And I think part of the raids at young people was about that. It was about oh they're going to cause more spread and that's not clear. But as I said, what I wrote and I think that's what really made me write this column was if we're going to be angry, let's be angry about stuff that really matters about the muddled message on testing, on how terrible we are on contract tracing at the administration of this. You know, Dr. Michael Warner, earlier in your show talked about this and he was quite right. He said all the problems we have with COVID are about structure and the red boat administration. They're not about medicine. So we've got to get that structure rated. We've got to get the communication right.

MG: What do you see as the way out when it comes to that structure?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, again, look to the people who've done it successfully. And time and time again, I'm pointing to Bonnie Henry in B.C.. She's become kind of the gold standard in this from what happened when B.C. had one of these events where thousands of people crowded on Kits Beach. Well, we all got outraged. What did she do? She didn't go and call people names and stuff. She said, you know, folks, I want you to keep going outside, but don't congregate. Find, go to English Bay as well. Go to many of our other parks. Don't all go to the same spot at the same time. And that's the message. We have to give people a reward for all the sacrifices they've made. But at the same time, remind them there's still some sacrifices to be made. And one of those includes don't congregate. I think the message has to be get outside. It's beautiful. It's actually we safer outside than inside. A study was published this week. You have about 20 times the risk of being infected indoors than outdoors if you're with someone who has the virus. We should urge people to get outside, but do it in a responsible manner and give them the means to do that.

MG: But if you go back to the testing issue, the line of thought for a lot of people is that while that lockdown happened, while people were making sacrifices, there was an opportunity there for governments to take advantage of that and figure out those structures so that when the lockdowns eased, we would be in a position to be able to test, to be able to trace. Do you feel as though governments have squandered that sacrifice in some ways?

ANDRE PICARD: Oh, absolutely. There's been a terrible squandering with the mismanagement of testing. We still don't know where the hotspots are and we know this. Why are there still 400, 500 new cases a day in Ontario when we've been locked down for two months? It really beggars belief and the reason it's happening is because we're not testing properly. We've focussed a lot on the numbers and it's important that Ontario do more, but it's even more important that they test more smartly. We got to figure out where these hotspots are and just as importantly, they have to tell us. We have to have the information to protect ourselves. If if somebody told me tomorrow, hey, everybody's getting infected at Trinity Bellwoods Park. I think there'd be a lot fewer people going there. But we don't know where the infections are happening. And I should add, I don't think there's any evidence they're happening outdoors or in parks. They're happening in spots that are not clear. Factories or businesses, but we don't know, but we should know.

MG: Do you need, if there are best practices that aren't being followed, practices in Alberta, practices in British Columbia that are being followed elsewhere, do you need the federal government to take the leadership role in this?

ANDRE PICARD: You know, I don't think practically that's going to happen politically. I think what we need is somebody to be in church. It's the provinces that got this right. B.C., Alberta, Saskatchewan. Somebody is clearly in charge of the messaging. Someone one thing clearly in charge of what's going on. It's not this hydra. Ontario's has this hydra of public health officer, politicians ministry, Public Health Ontario. It's an administrative mess. And that's exactly what we talked about this 15 years ago with SARS, that it was the problem and we're the same mistake.

MG: Dr. Bonnie Henry was on this program last week and she talked about a second wave of COVID-19, essentially said it's all but inevitable. Given that, how careful do we need to be about about easing lockdowns, about trying to get back outside?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, I think we have to be careful, but I think the message she delivered also is an important one, is that, yes, this is going to happen, but we can manage it. And how do we manage it? It's by learning to live with the virus rather than living in fear of it. We have to figure out how to get on with our lives a little differently and a little more safely. And we have to be ready when there are no breaks and there will be we have to be able to nip them in the bud quickly and that's the most disturbing thing about Ontario.It takes three days, five days to do contact tracing. It takes three days to get results of the test. That's just a recipe for allowing any new cases to spread like wildfire and I think that's what people in the province should fear most. They shouldn't fear a bunch of kids sitting in a park drinking.

MG: Andre, great to speak with you, as always. Thank you.

ANDRE PICARD: Thank you.

MG: Andre Picard is the Globe and Mail's health columnist and a regular part of our ongoing COVID-19 coverage here at The Current.

Travel vouchers not enough Canadians demand refunds for COVID-19 flight cancellations

Guests: Scott Friars, Gabor Lukacs

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. My name's Matt Galloway.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: The airlines are essentially taking interest-free loans from Canadians. It feels completely unjust. It's like the airlines are taking people as fools. I feel completely disgusted and disheartened by this whole experience.

Canadians want their money back from airlines for trips that were cancelled by COVID-19. The prime minister says the federal government is now looking into the airline refund policy.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: We need to have some very careful discussions with airlines, with the air travel sector and indeed with Canadians who are concerned to try and figure out a way forward where we can ensure that Canadians are treated fairly and to our airline industry remains there for when our economy picks up again.

MG: It's a tricky balance for the prime minister maybe. For many Canadians though, the answer is pretty simple. Pay up. Scott Friars's family holiday to France was recently cancelled by WestJet. He's been struggling to get a refund. He is in Halifax. Scott, good morning.

SCOTT FRIARS: Good morning, Matt. Thanks for having me on.

MG: Thanks for joining us. Just briefly, tell me about the trip that you had planned. What were you going to do?

SCOTT FRIARS: We had a great family trip planned, which was going take us from Halifax here to to Paris, and we were going to tour around France for a few weeks. And unfortunately, like a lot of Canadians are, our plans were scuttled. And we naively thought that we would have our refunds properly processed, but unfortunately, we've been offered a 13 month restricted voucher by Air Miles. Not not 24 months, kind of like what's widely reported. And so, yes, we're kind of stuck. Yeah, so the trip cancellation policies will not reimburse as long as a travel voucher has been offered. So it's like a lot of Canadians have been left in the lurch with what's happened.

MG: And this was something that you've been planning for a long time and had saved up for. Right? I mean you were using points, but also paying for it.

SCOTT FRIARS: Yes. Like the way Air Miles works out, we used almost 20,000 Air Miles, which takes many years to save up. We we paid around $1400 in taxes and fees and been saving up, say, for the best part of the year for that. And unfortunately, yeah, just kind of left in the lurch. I mean, I do sympathize with the travel industry crisis. I mean, it's you know, it is a very bad thing, but it's not really my responsibility as a customer to provide financial assistance to to corporations.

MG: What did WestJet offer you? Just to be clear, when the trip was cancelled, what did they offer you?

SCOTT FRIARS: Air Miles has offered us a 13 month restrictive travel voucher anywhere that WestJet will fly, but it has to be booked by February. So with all the current non-essential travel bans and probably future non-essential travel bans, it's virtually worthless to us. I mean, it's very difficult to book a trip when there's a non-essential travel ban and to have a 30 month timeframe on it, it's just not, it's totally unacceptable.

MG: Now, there's talk, as you said, that this would be a 24 month travel voucher, but you're only being offered, you say 13 months. You have to use it within 13 months?

SCOTT FRIARS: Yes. And that's kind of the problem. A lot of people like myself who booked to travel and see something kind of left in the lurch here. Maybe, perhaps if you booked with WestJet or Air Canada or one of the airlines themselves, they offer a better voucher, but through a third party, you know like Expedia and places like that, a lot of us, from what I'm reading, are offered like a one year travel credit, which I think with the current crisis is not realistic at all. And there's no refund at the end of it. It's basically use it or lose it. If you know, we could use this voucher for, let's say, a trip to Toronto and there all the Air Miles we saved, get used on one little trip to Toronto. So it's totally unfair. Like there's no standards with the lack of regulation or actually the government overrode the current regulations and now there's no standard. So a lot of Canadians are just left basically with nowhere to turn and our regulator completely let us down by doing me this whole voucher thing.

MG: We got a statement from Air Miles, which in part reads, If the airline ticket was booked and is non-refundable, transborder or international flight that's been suspended, the collector, that would be you, will receive the value of the trip in the form of a travel credit. If the flight booked is refundable with or without penalties, we will work with the provider to refund the value of your flight. Does that sit at all with you?

SCOTT FRIARS: Well, I mean, the problem with a refundable ticket, I don't really know anybody who really buys refundable airline tickets. Like everybody just buys airline fare.

MG: Because they cost a lot more. If you want the full refund, you have to pay a whole lot more to get that full refundable ticket.

SCOTT FRIARS: Yes. I have never even heard of such thing. Like most people have emergency trip cancellation and emergency medical coverage, which we had. And when this happened, I just assumed that that would kick in as the airline themselves cancelled the flight. Not us. And I naively thought that, oh, well, it's yeah, it's you know, it's not great, but at least we'll get our Air Miles back and our money back.

MG: Has WestJet said anything to you about this?

SCOTT FRIARS: WestJet just hands us off to Air Miles. They say you purchased your ticket through the Air Miles Travel Group and you have to talk to them. Air Miles tells us they're following WestJet's non-refundable policy. So it's, we're really stuck as a lot of people are and I mean, what, you know, like the regulation is is very clear that the customer has a request to refund. And if I mean, I could perhaps be offered a voucher, they could incentivize travel vouchers and make them more attractive to increase the uptake perhaps, but the right to a refund is in the current regulations. The regulations have not changed.

MG: Just before I let you go, do you understand why I guess airlines would be reluctant to refund the money? That if they refunded everybody's money for all the tickets that were paid, there would be no airline at the end of that.

SCOTT FRIARS: And I do understand that. But airline industries, I think they need to be supported in a different way perhaps. Like say that's not the customer's responsibility to to provide involuntary financial assistance to a multi-billion dollar profitable corporation. I mean, these are huge, huge firms and say, you know, if this was the auto industry and I put a down payment on a truck and then Ford or whoever has financial problems, they'd say I'm sorry, Mr. Friarr's, here's a 24 month non-refundable voucher and we hope to get your truck to you. It would be totally unacceptable. And for some reason, that's what's happening here and customers are being told, oh, well, you know, the industry is in trouble. Just work with them. It's like, well, the regulations are clear. Perhaps if they gave you the option, like say, to incentivize a voucher or if a voter works for me, that's great, for somebody else it may not.

MG: Good luck and I appreciate. You wrote us to tell us about this. So I appreciate you getting in touch and we'll follow this along. Scott, thank you.

SCOTT FRIARS: Oh, that's right. Thank you very much, Matt and take care.

MG: And you. Scott Friars joined us from Halifax. We did contact both WestJet and Air Miles. As I mentioned, we got that statement from Air Miles. We did not hear back from WestJet. Gabor Lukacs has been listening in. He's the founder of the Canadian advocacy group Air Passenger Rights. He is also in Halifax this morning. Gabor, good morning to you.

GABOR LUKACS: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Scott says that the regulations are clear. What is Canadian law, say, around voters and getting your money back? If you buy a ticket and your flight is cancelled, what are you owed?

GABOR LUKACS: If the airline cancels your flight for whatever reason, you are owed a refund to the original form of payment. This has been established for the past 16 years.

MG: So what do you make of what Scott's being told then, that he says he was punted by WestJet to Air Miles. Air Miles says we'll give you a voucher. There's questions to how long that voucher will be good for, but you don't get your money back. You get a voucher instead of.

GABOR LUKACS: Unfortunately, Canadian airlines are breaking the law. They are, in practical terms, trying to steal the public's money. That money does not belong to the airlines. It is an unearned revenue and as such, it is has the same status as my neighbor's car standing next to a house. Yes, it's next to my house, but it's still not mine. Their allies are trying to take this money, not because they would necessarily go bankrupt if they had to return. I think that what you stated before was not quite correct, Matt. When you look at Air Canada, they have a liquidity of four or five billion dollars. They understand, and they owe to the public about 2.6 billion dollars. So even if they refunded everything, they were still having 2.4 billion dollars available. But this is really a cheaper way for them to get financing, an easier way to get financing.

MG: What about the voucher? What's wrong with a voucher? Even if there's a time limit on the voucher of 24 months, what's wrong with a voucher?

GABOR LUKACS: You cannot use a voucher to buy groceries, to pay bills or to pay taxes. And the law says that the airlines have to provide your cash. If vouchers are as good as cash, airlines would be giving you cash. Obviously, they are giving you vouchers because it is less valuable. In terms of passengers prudence the it was held that $3 in vouchers is equivalent to one dollar in cash. So there's a 1 to 3 ratio, which was found to be an adequate equivalent. Even then, it's quite clear that in a case, though, that if vouchers provided a passenger has to proactively agree to it, it cannot be imposed on passengers.

MG: I apologize, maybe I don't understand this, but if the law is as clear as you say it is and there's no fine print at the bottom of the page that perhaps didn't read after I bought the ticket, how is it that the airlines can get away with not giving Scott his money back?

GABOR LUKACS: Because currently the federal regulator is clearly very cozy with the airlines. They issued a nonbinding statement on their website somewhat endorsing this practise without any real legal basis to it. And there's no accountability other than perhaps through the media in terms of the legal side. There are already two class actions against five major Canadian airlines. Why not go back and wait in federal court to hold airlines accountable for the money that they have taken and have refused to refund? So it is not that everybody thinks that it is all perfect. Rather, that the current government. For various political reasons and their cozy ties with the airline industry is not upholding the law.

MG: What are the, sorry, what are the political reasons why the government wouldn't uphold the law?

GABOR LUKACS: When you look at Quebec, at Air Canada, especially there, there are various issues there with jobs. Quebec has always been a touchy area for the current government, and the airline industry has shown to have a very good relationship with the current government, undoubtedly especially, Quebec side branch. So Air Transit and Air Canada.

MG: Marc Garneau, the federal minister of Transport responsible for airlines sent us, his office sent us a statement. It reads in part, This is a quotation. "We know how frustrating and difficult this is to many Canadians, but also recognise the existential position many airlines are in. A balanced approach is needed in supporting Canadians and ensuring that they continue to have affordable and efficient air transportation options for years to come." What do you make of that, particularly the reference to the existential position that airlines are in?

GABOR LUKACS: I believe Mr. Garneau is misguided again. And fortunately, he's a very distinguished scientist, but when it comes to air travel policy, he is sorely wanting the situation of balancing is simple. It sounds to me as if Mr. Garneau wanted to balance the rights of a bank robber and a bank. There is no question here. This money does not belong to the airlines.

MG: But I guess his point is that if the airlines, if all the airlines were to refund all the money that's owed to all the passengers, the existential pieces that the airlines wouldn't stay in business, that there would be no money. Those passengers aren't going to get their money because they're unsecured creditors. It would go to people who are owed much more and that that would threaten not just the passengers, but to his point, affordable air transportation in this country in years down the road.

GABOR LUKACS: But we do know that it's false. Mr. Garneau is not being entirely transparent here. With respect to Air Canada, we know they have about 5 billion dollars. We know they owe $2.6 billion in refunds. So even if your refund and all the money was to have 2.4 billion dollars, which is I'm sure I mean, Mr. Garneau's opinion, just small change. The treality is that at least for Air Canada, the money is there, just that they want to hold on to this for various business considerations. This is not to say that airlines may not need some help, but the question is worded help is coming from. When you look at the model that Germany adopted and I would like to remind listeners that Angela Merkel is not a socialist. Exactly. In Germany, Lufthansa received a significant government bailout in exchange for equity for 20 percent equity stake within the company, which may go up to 25 percent in some cases so that it could be a viable model. What is clear that it is the shareholders to owners and possibly corporate creditors that will have to take the haircut. They are not consumers. A shareholder and investor invest in a company in the expectation of profit and assumes a calculated risk. They are making a deal in the hopes of profit. Passengers, however, are not investors. They're not the gamblers. They are consumer.

MG: So for those passengers, just in the last couple of seconds that we have. Do you think Scott Friars is ever going to get his money back?

GABOR LUKACS: I recommend him to go for a chargeback process for anything he paid on his credit card and yes, he will be seeing back his money because this money belongs to him and if he may have to fight for it, but the law is clearly on his side. We have here a state of anarchy now, and that has to be brought to an end. Rule of law, law and order has to be restored in this area.

MG: Gabor Lukacs, good to speak with you. Thank you.

GABOR LUKACS: Thank you very much for having me.

MG: Gabor Lukacs is the founder of Air Passenger Rights. We reached him in Halifax. You're welcome to comment on this. If you find yourself with a trip that's not going to happen and you're waiting for the money that you may or may not be owed as a refund, you can reach us through the website cbc.ca/thecurrent. Click on the contact link.

Closing with Tom Power

Guests: Tom Power

MG: That is The Current for today. Coming up next on your CBC Radio One, it's Q. Tom Power's, the host. Hello, Tom.

TOM POWER: Matt, I was so happy to hear you talk about folks who don't have Internet access today.

MG: Yes. Why?

TOM POWER: I want to know. I just, I've spent a lot of time travelling around this country, travelling to rural areas. And I realize that, you know, the way I get on about being able to stream things on Netflix, not a luxury that everybody has in this country.

MG: I know there are a lot of people who, you know, for whom Netflix is a dream.

TOM POWER: Well you know today we're gonna talk about phone booths on Q. And I think I was coming into this story going like ah, you know, phone booth, a relic of another time. But again, yet another example of me maybe examining my own privilege there and phone booths are still a useful thing for a lot of Canadians. But we're going to talk about one person in Manitoba who has documented all of the phone booths in Manitoba driving from each one and talks about not just how they're important to a community, but how they're kind of art as well.

MG: I was trying to remember the last time I used a phone booth.

TOM POWER: I think it's when you were putting on your superhero costume the other day.

MG: That's right. I just had to go in just to take the shirt off and then there's my cape. It's all ready.

TOM POWER: A big CBC logo in the middle of your chest. I think that might be it. Yeah.

MG: We will listen for that this morning. Tom, thank you.

TOM POWER: Take care, Matt.

MG: Tom Power is the host of Q. That comes up right after your CBC News. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. Take care of yourself and we'll talk tomorrow.

[Music: theme]

May 26, 2020 episode transcript

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