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The Current Transcript for November 19, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

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Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

And like walking out into the open sky, waiting for Lake District, you have no idea where it's coming from and what you can do to minimise your risk other than, quote unquote, be careful.

MATT GALLOWAY: Doctors on the front lines of this pandemic have been hailed as heroes. But for those speaking out about the importance of public health measures like vaccines and masks, the reaction sometimes has been much less welcome in 30 minutes. Three doctors talk about death threats, harassment and feeling frightened in their jobs and what they want the federal government and social media companies to do about the abuse that they are facing. Also this morning, Steve Van Zandt has had, if we're being honest, a great life playing in the E Street band alongside Bruce Springsteen, starring in The Sopranos. But in many ways it's his work fighting against apartheid that he is proudest of.

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I mean, I was the least political guy in the world. I mean, I managed to get through the entire 60s without a political thought.

MG: In an hour. Little Steven on a political awakening, creating the anthem that helped bring down South Africa's government and what it's really like to play with the boss in front of 50000 screaming fans. We start, though, in Abbotsford, B.C. the water is receding, but the damage left in its wake is devastating. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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How Abbotsford, B.C., farmers are trying to save their animals amid floodwaters

Guests: Ben Jamieson, Karl Meier

MG: Well, the worst of the storm in British Columbia has passed, but the province is still under a lot of water, and people in some areas are still in immediate danger. The situation in some us, Perry near Abbotsford, is dire. It's under evacuation orders right now. More rain is in the forecast for this weekend, and the flooding could become catastrophic if the only pump station in town fails. Abbotsford is known as a farming town. Corn and cows are what you usually see out the window as you drive through. And right now, that's part of the problem.

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There's about 45000 cows, so you think 45000 cows make up how many people's livelihoods across that entire, entire span of area, like that, that is a lot, when you put it into perspective.

MG: That's a lot of cows The Current's Ben Jamieson has been in Abbotsford this week. Ben, good morning.

BEN JAMIESON: Hey, Matt. So that's actually one of the volunteers that I met yesterday, and he's been helping get animals to safety, and that really gives you an idea of the sense of the scale of what people are dealing with.

MG: It certainly does. This is the heart of BC's farm country. What does it look like?

BEN JAMIESON: Well, I got into Abbotsford around Wednesday morning and honestly, if you're driving through town, you wouldn't really know anything had happened. And then I came up this mountain and the view kind of just opens up and you get smacked with this lake basically, like you're looking over. You can see roofs of houses and farms. And I know all week we've been talking about how soumis prairie used to be Soumis Lake. And I mean, honestly, that's what it looks like now.

MG: That's amazing. I mean, it is a big flat area, but it's just hard to imagine it kind of with that much water in it.

BEN JAMIESON: It is. It is. And I've been speaking with this farmer, Carl Meyers, a dairy farmer in Soumis Prairie, and I know you'll be speaking with him a couple of minutes, but I wanted to get to his farm on Wednesday, so I drove down towards this road blockade to get into the prairie and found that there was lots of people gathered also trying to get in.

MG: What did you hear from those farmers who were gathered, as you say, at the checkpoint?

BEN JAMIESON: Well, I spoke to this one guy, so I went over to him because he had this huge truck and big flatbed on it. And on top of the trailer was this water tank. And so I went over to find out what was going on. And so he told me that his farm was away from the flooding. But his friend inside was Prairie was completely flooded out and he needed to get this water to the chickens because basically they had an hour, hour and a half tops before they died of thirst.

MG: Oh my goodness, did he get in?

BEN JAMIESON: I stayed for about 45 minutes and he hadn't got in by that point. And Matt, I mean, this side of the story is really top of mind. For so many years, it was prairie right now, like farmers have been told to leave their animals basically to die in some cases, but not everyone is following those orders, really.

MG: What do you mean?

BEN JAMIESON: Well, later in the day, I actually I drove up to the airport and that's where the trade building is. And so this is where its people have been sheltering about 100 people or so. And these are other people that have been forced from their homes or were trapped in Abbotsford waiting to get out. And so I pull into the parking lot and there's this guy standing there in front of a pretty fancy looking boat, and it's one of those boats, you know, with jets and propellers. So I kind of had to go over and figure out what was going on.

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My name is Mathias Woessner. I joined the Facebook group going around called the Fraser Valley Flood help. I think it's called. So one of the point men told me to meet up here. And so we're waiting for him to come back, and he has a couple of missions for us to go out and rescue some cats and some people that are apparently flooded out. So I was waiting for him to come back. I have a jumbo England run, pretty skinny water, so we figure we can get into places that normal boats can. So some of these farmhouses and blueberry fields that are flooded out have, you know, a lot of animals. So a lot of people, obviously as well. So yeah, we're just here to see if we can lend a hand and get people left out.

MG: So he's going in to get people and cats.

BEN JAMIESON: Yeah, there were calls about these 50 cats that were stranded, and it wasn't really clear from what I could hear over the phone if there were crates, if there were cages to help get the cats out. And from what I then heard is a kind of the one of the best options available was going to be pillowcases.

MG: Put the cat in the pillowcases.

BEN JAMIESON: Exactly. 50 cats and pillowcases on a boat, going across water of flooded farmers' fields. Like it just kind of gives you an idea of the desperate situation that people are in right now.

MG: And it speaks to me, you're talking about the livestock. It speaks to this heartbreaking situation, as well as people just leaving their pets behind because they have to flee because the water keeps rising. Tell us more about folks like Mathias, who were there with their boats trying to help out.

BEN JAMIESON: Well, there's lots of them. They're working flat out and basically they're just stopping for dark because or when it's dark, because it's unsafe to be on that water again. I mean, you don't know what's underneath there. There's barbed wire fence post cars, who knows? And so by the time I met metallurgists and we were talking about the cats, it had gotten dark. So they called it for the night. So the next morning, so yesterday morning, I went back and met them in the parking lot. And so it's before 7:00 a.m. It's freezing. It's like three degrees out. And of course. Now it's pouring rain, but by the time I get there, there are already two trucks with two boats in tow, and these three new guys that I had met the day before that are waiting to go out on the water. And some of them had been out before. And some of them. But this is going to be their first time.

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BRIAN: My name is Brian Mira.

JASON: Jason Ellingson

JACK: My name's Jack White,

BRIAN: we're taking boats out and trying to save stranded pets, people, livestock, wherever we can find.

JASON: I feel like someone's got to go out and help out in any way, shape or form they can. So that's what my plan is today.

JACK: And if you have a boat or something and you're willing to get out on the water, you should you should definitely definitely consider it because these people like they, they can't. They're helpless right now. Currently, they can't. They can't do anything. So other people need the need to step in and, you know, take that responsibility on it and try and help. And I mean, I know the RCMP search and rescue the provincial and federal government are trying to do whatever they can, but they can only do do so much until until the community has to step in and help with everything else.

MG: So these are people that just show up wanting to help. Are they all neighbours helping each other out or what's going on here?

BEN JAMIESON: I mean, not really. Some of them are, and some of them just weren't flooded as badly as others. But others, like Mathias, is with Burnaby Fire. Some are off duty paramedics. You know, some of them are just coming in because they heard that they're needed, you know, some help. And so they brought their boats from Surrey or Langley. It's basically just people saying, I can help. I'm here.

MG: And so they arrive. I mean, how much of a plan did they have versus just getting out on the water and seeing what they could do?

BEN JAMIESON: Well, as you heard so, Mathias says, there's a Facebook group and it's one of many that's been started. And that's kind of where people are going to ask for help or show that they can help. And one of the people trying to organise a lot of these efforts is this guy, Julian Galais.

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This morning, we're going to head over and help a farmer who says that the water's rising and help move some of his cattle calves to some dry ground.

BEN JAMIESON: So once Julian showed up kind of with the mission for that day, the rest of the crew of these eight volunteers started to hatched a plan.

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VOICE 1: So I talked to the farmer and he said, like, aluminium boats are going to be dangerous to go out. So that is completely up to you guys. Yeah, we're doing what we came out already. Yeah, right? We can all travel together and the boats. Yeah, yeah. That makes it better. Worst case my boat. Get stuck and I got to leave it there and I hop in someone else's boat and go out like, Yeah, whatever, it's aluminium, I'll find it at some point. Yeah, we've got to do it. Yeah, if I don't.

VOICE 2: So basically, we're going to head over more towards Chilliwack, like No. Three Road area, OK? And Fireman says he's got like 30 calves. OK, so we're going to help him move there. I don't know who's there already, but yeah, we'll figure it out. OK?

PRODUCER: Do you guys have any experience with cattle?

VOICE 1: Me personally, little little bit. That's OK. He said. It doesn't really matter. It's just, you know, you just got cows. Just he needs as much as all the spots where they are stubborn.

VOICE 2: Cows are very stubborn, so don't be afraid to man and a little little bit.

VOICE 1: Yeah, I've sorted cows, and that's if I can put calves in my boat. I probably can fit two in that thing.

VOICE 2: Yeah, I can definitely fit two in that.

VOICE 1: I've only flipped it twice.

VOICE 2: So you should make sure that everyone lifejackets on, of course, right?

VOICE 1: Yeah. Yeah, I guess I'm grabbing or be checking the depth, so we're not dragging them through the mud, you know? Yeah. One person looking out for hazards on the front right boys and barbed wire fence posts cars like these little Maori. Yeah.

VOICE 2: That's why you're not going out. And I ask people, aren't you? I understand tried. But if you're a farmer, that's your livelihood and you probably don't have insurance on those

VOICE 1: things. Yeah, yeah. These people, those people lost everything. The least they can do is have their animals back here. Yeah, yeah. This is something for them to start with, right?

VOICE 2: So you're you're a cattle farmer, you know, dairy farmer. That's that's all you got.

MG: That just sounds wild. Them trying to hatch this plan as it's all kind of coming together. Just to be clear. I mean, there's still an evacuation order in place in Soumis Prairie. So is what they're doing legal or...?

BEN JAMIESON: They are by the sounds of things taking precautions. But again, this is an evolving situation. This is what Abbotsford Mayor Henry Braun said about it.

SOUNDCLIP

I just want to implore the farmers just because you saw water drop doesn't mean it's safe to go in there. The water is rising over here. There's already barns. It's it's up to the top of the it's approaching the top of the roof. Yes, there's a lot of roads that are dry, but there is wash those shoulders happening in lots of different places. We cannot let people in here.

MG: What are these guys in the boats make of the call not to go in?

BEN JAMIESON: Well, they're going to go in regardless.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 2: I wouldn't. I wouldn't be surprised if I were to hear something from somebody in search and rescue, but it's like you got to do what you can. I mean, they they they're not out there trying to save livestock. They're concerned about the people and. You know, we got to help our communities, and that goes beyond just helping people that are stuck in their homes.

BEN JAMIESON: You know, Matt, what's the plan was made? I followed these guys through the streets of Abbotsford. So it's, you know, eight guys in these three trucks that there's three boats cruising around roundabouts trying to find a place to launch these boats. And you're passing like baseball diamonds and soccer fields that are completely covered in water. And you think, OK, we're going to put the boats in here and then we get down dirt roads and maybe here on the side of highway. And eventually they pulled up to a checkpoint and they got it. I watched these three trucks and three boats drive down the hill towards, you know, saving cows and cats and some farmers.

MG: Do we know how they fared?

BEN JAMIESON: But I heard from them last night, and so they did get about 30 calves moved to higher ground, and they also managed to save actually one cat trapped in the house. And you can hear them here. So they're breaking into the house with a hatchet. The owner knew you can hear them saying This can be.

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[Sound: Meowing]

OK, OK, OK, good boy. Come on. Come on, come on. Come on, come on. Come on. There we go.

MG: That's amazing.

BEN JAMIESON: It's one cat that's going back to its owners.

MG: Ben, thank you very much for this. Thanks. Matt The Current, Ben Jamison. As you just heard, it's been an awful week for farmers in Abbotsford as they're doing everything they can to save their property and their animals. Ray Nicoll is with the B.C. Chicken Marketing Board.

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We have a number of our farms that are they sort of look like islands, even though they're operational, they're surrounded, they're completely surrounded by water. And I'd like to tell you that our farmers are extremely resilient and they are. And so we've had some, you know, very heroic things that have gone on working together. But I'm a third generation farmer that's no different than than the farmers in those areas. And it's very daunting when you are faced with the reality that you might end up losing a good portion of that. It's very stressful. You know, it doesn't just go away in a day. This is this is kind of an ongoing scenario right now.

MG: Karl Meier is one of the farmers living with less stress. He is a dairy farmer in Abbotsford. Karl, good morning.

KARL MEIER: Good morning.

MG: I spoke with you earlier this week and you said that there was about 10 feet of water at your farm. What does it look like now?

KARL MEIER: Well, it's about eighty three. It's hard to say there's definitely three feet of water still around the barn. As for the barns themselves, all the water has disappeared though, which is awesome. We were we came into the barns these Friday. So I'm guessing Wednesday all the days are kind of at one right now, I can imagine. Yeah, I had to do the maths. So Wednesday we rolled in on boats, a couple of our friends for us and then we got here. We saw the barns are empty. Just my twin brother and I, we had a son. The two are migrants came. So we had two boats and it was like Susie hit the ground. It was like game on like, well, my one friend, she was a farmer, was farm, was on a farm for years. He had a farm. Another friend, went to high school together with [unintelligible] and walked around the farm. He knew this farm as well as everyone else. And then the two other people they were, I didn't know who they were. They just drove us in. And then we- they just started up and just picking up stuff, scrape and picking up garbage, you know, cleaning up the parlour so that we could get to it. And my brother, Rudy got to go back and he picked up our other friend from high school, too. He was. He came in, he will be the electrician. He started working on our pumps for electric motors so we could start going like. So those were only 10, 11 o'clock. We just started chipping away at it like we're hoping to hit like a sledgehammer, but that wasn't going to work. So.

MG: Were you able to save all your cars? The cat, the cows and the cattle?

KARL MEIER: Well, I had a count of cats who were all saved too.

MG: Cat. Keep looking to the cats as well.

KARL MEIER: My household cats came with me, came with my wife in the town and in the barn cats. The ahead went on the patio that morning. They talk to you on, I guess, a little bit Tuesday morning that we were uh, I had one of the barn cats roll up the house, so it was like a feral cat would never be able to catch that cat. But I picked him up and put it on my back patio on top of a table and fed it cat food. It was fine and the cattle are all good. We have no losses.

MG: And some new additions as well. Some some calves were born.

KARL MEIER: That was on Monday before I talk to you, we had to baby calves that we couldn't. We couldn't evacuate to the fact that the water came too high. So they just, they just went up in the hill off. They were safe up there. Little calves. They're not going to go around out too much. They're still here. They'll probably come down from the hill off to the side. But yeah, there's no losses, but they're not, they're just not happy right now.

MG: We've we've heard from people. I mean, and your ben was talking about the barriers in terms of people getting back to their farms. I mean, what has that been like? Have you been able to get back or are you?

KARL MEIER: Oh, it's been. It's been like, kickin. It's like pulling teeth or kicking down doors. Like I have been ran into a problem myself. Like last night we were supposed to, we where the military supposed to come in and fix a part of the dyke, and we were supposed to start to get out of life or, I don't know, checkpoint passes to go in and out like even the like even now, like I applied and I got denied. And I was like, I left anyways last night. The military isn't here yet, but like the police have, it's been hot and cold. Like, I have my brother, Rudy. He went across, we went out to go get a migrant and my two sons come back and they wouldn't let him cross. And then. Like, 20 minutes later, they let like 35 people come down the farm and help me shovel Silas out like you let the trucks by, but you don't let the guy in the truck to come by. And same what the boat's like those guys they must have got through. But there's people who are trying to get out with boats, and they wouldn't let them come by. Those [unintelligible] like farmers other than the one that was on the roof really about getting water to the farms. Yeah, like they like, they turned them around, like they refused access to them. It's like. I don't know what's going on. I don't know why. It's like, help us help. I don't think people are out here trying to mess around with farms or try to loot. Most people are here to help.

MG: That's a good part of this. I mean, there's nothing good that's coming out of this, but the fact that people are helping each other out must be a relief.

KARL MEIER: Yeah, it's[unintelligible]like yesterday I had like on Wednesday, we had cleaned out our whole farm, saw us out, saw us in. Cows are laying, cows got milk. That was like those gave, but there's was plenty [unintelligible]. They got fed, they're all good. That was the best part of that. Yesterday we went to our younger, young stock facility down the road, basically three km of my place and like I just showed up with three guys again, and a migrant and then we showed up and then also the truck showed up behind me, I didn't even know. I put it on Facebook the day before my like, Hey, we're going to go with the Facebook [unintelligible] watch. So everyone in the prairie kind is on it. So I have to you. We're going to go down there. Most likely installs. Anyone with shovels? Appreciate the help. Like two minutes later, three more trucks showed up, and apparently they were all from the rugby club. My older brother, he's really involved, both my siblings and my nieces or fairly involved in Rugby Club. So they all [unintelliglbe]. We basically cleaned the bar out maybe three hours, four hours. Cleaned both sides of bard out. Fresh bedding, fresh water, baby calves got to sit down again. Like it was just, it was just amazing. It was like they brought coffee. Everything is like, it was freezing cold. It was probably like it was like two three degrees. Just pouring rain.

MG: Like, it's great. It's great to hear the people are helping out that's exactly what you need.

KARL MEIER: And it wasn't like they were like, Yeah, we're here. They're like, no farms, no future. They're like, I'm like, Susie's like, I can [unintelliglbe]. They're like, Okay, we're not- it wasn't like, Oh, we're done.

MG: That's what you want to hear, Karl. We're going to let you go. We're out of time, but we're going to let you go. You've been through a lot and I wish you the best and hope you get some rest as well. Thanks so much.

KARL MEIER: All right. Awesome.

MG: Thank you. Take care. Karl Meier, Dairy Farmer in Abbotsford, British Columbia. This is The Current on CBC Radio one. We're back in six minutes. Stay with us.

Addressing the threats to doctors during the pandemic

Guests: Dr. Naheed Dosani, Dr. Nili Kaplan-Myrth, Dr. Katharine Smart

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, you might know him as Silvio from The Sopranos or as the right hand man of the boss himself. You might not have known, though, that some of Steve Van Zandt true glory days were spent in Soweto, South Africa. He'll be here to talk politics and to talk about jamming with Paul McCartney in about 30 minutes. But first checking in on this country's health care workers.

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MG: Dr. Darren Markland is an intensive care physician in Edmonton, Alberta, and that means he has been caring for COVID patients nearly non-stop since the beginning of this pandemic. Like thousands of others, he's been called a health care hero, but he's also been called a lot worse than earlier this fall at 11 o'clock at night. He got a knock on his front door at home. An RCMP officer was there with a warning.

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There was a credible threat, with enough identifying information that somebody had targeted me for death. But- and this came from the RCMP, which I found it added significant weight to it. That was incredibly hard. And what made it harder was that they can tell you that there's a threat against your life, but they can give you no specifics. And so it's like walking out into the open sky, waiting for lightning to strike you. You have no idea where it's coming from and what you can do to minimise your risk other than, quote unquote, be careful.

MG: Darren Markland isn't the only Canadian doctor to have that feeling of danger when he steps out their front door. Many health care workers who've spoken out on social media or on the news about public health measures or vaccines have been the targets of hateful, sexist, racist messages and death threats as well. Dr. Nili Kaplan-Myrth as a family doctor in Ottawa. Dr. Naheed Dosani is a palliative care physician and health justice activist in Toronto, and I spoke with them yesterday. Here's our conversation.

DR. NILI KAPLAN-MYRTH: Good morning.

DR. NAHEED DOSANI: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Dr. Kaplan-Myrth, I want to start with you in part because of a recent experience that you had, which really, I think kicked off the public conversation around this. Tell me about this one particular letter that came your way.

DR. NILI KAPLAN-MYRTH: Yeah. So I received an email from the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario that I should contact them because they had received a letter of complaint. And that was on November the 1st, and I phoned them and asked what was going on. And they said, Well, in fact, this was an unusual letter and that I should call the police when I received the copy of it. And then later that day, they sent it to me and it contained a death threat. And and it's also racist and sexist. And so that was the first time that I've received a threat that wasn't just somebody like a troll or somebody on social media saying that I'd end up in hospital if I immunise their children, which has also happened. But we tend to block those and ignore those and move on. And this was different. And and the person, you know, because of the way that they sent this into the college, they signed their name of their identity. And yet here we are almost three weeks later and the police are still investigating, and the college is still waiting to decide whether or not they're going to consider this to be a true complaint or vexatious. Even though the complaint was versus criminal fraudulent charter violating Nazi slut Neely Kaplan Mercy saying that I should be killed.

MG: That's what it said.

DR. NILI KAPLAN-MYRTH: Uh hmm.

MG: What was it like to read that?

DR. NILI KAPLAN-MYRTH: Well, I mean, it was, first it was shocking. And then and then it was really scary because it's a level of violence and it's a type of threat that feels much more dangerous than anything that we've ever encountered before. I have not ever had somebody prior to the pandemic say that I, I would be killed or that I deserve to die. And the reason that I'm being told that I deserve to die is because I've been outspoken in advocating for everybody who wants to be able to access COVID vaccine, to be able to access it. And. And that advocacy is so important and the work that we've done in reaching out to marginalised patients and all the rest of it. And I spoke to the prime minister last February to talk about equity and access to COVID vaccine, and I don't regret any of that. But it's shocking to be threatened by a very small group of people out there who who think that it's acceptable to behave that way.

MG: Dr. Dosani, do you remember the first time that someone made a threat like that towards you or used aggressive, hateful language over the course of this pandemic?

DR. NAHEED DOSANI: Yeah. You know, what might surprise many Canadians is that throughout this entire journey for health workers, there has been an underbelly of hate online that has existed really from week one of the pandemic, and it really started as replies on platforms like Twitter and Instagram. And as it went on, it actually developed into emails in our inboxes, direct messages, letters to our offices. And in one case, I actually got a threatening message by fax to one of my places of work, which is like a lot of effort to send something by fax in 2021. But I think it really started earlier on when it was. We were talking a lot about lockdowns, and what we've seen is that as time has gone on of this pandemic, that the nature of the hate we've received has actually, you know, there's always been this baseline, but there's have been a spike any time we've seen our governments, particularly here in Ontario, when our provincial government didn't stand with policies that supported science or standing in solidarity with health workers. We've seen a spike of hate and it's emboldened people who don't believe in science and support the anti-vaccine movement.

MG: Do you distinguish between the trolls on social media? Dr Dasani and threats that are happening beyond social media? I mean, there are people who say, Well, just don't read the comments and I'm not diminishing what with the, you know, the threats that you get on social media. But I'm wondering whether you distinguish between the two.

DR. NAHEED DOSANI: Certainly at the beginning, there was an attitude of those are just trolls don't don't hit that little button where you see the hidden replies. I think we all know what that looks like on Twitter. They're just trolling. But but there really is a fine line between trolling and when it becomes, you know, vicious threats. And we have to remember that the face of online hate towards health workers in Canada is intersectional. Well, many of my colleagues have received hate. The hate that I received used to be racism and xenophobia. A real focus on. The colour of my skin or my Muslim background by faith, for example. And we often think that we're better than our neighbours to the South in America. And the reality is that the COVID 19 pandemic has shown that that he is present and and is intertwined with white nationalism and white supremacy in a way that many Canadians just have no idea about. And that's why I'm so glad we're having this conversation.

MG: Dr. Kaplan-Myrth, you were advised. Is this true not to have not this conversation, but to speak publicly about the threat that you received?

DR. NILI KAPLAN-MYRTH: Yeah, that's correct. And the College of Physicians and Surgeons consider a complaint to the college to be a private matter. I don't consider a death threat to be a complaint. And the thing is that if, if, if I hadn't started this conversation, if I hadn't gone public and said, like, this is what's happening, then all of the conversations that we're now having would have still been people having to try to struggle to deal with this on their own. And my patients and the broader community need to understand when I say, no, I'm not going to do a junior jab a palooza, they need to understand. That's because like, there is an actual need for me to keep my my, my door locked to be very cautious about not inviting somebody in who could possibly hurt me or any of my volunteers or any of my staff or anyone else.

MG: And when you say it like a junior Java palooza, I mean, this was like a festival of immunisation, if I can put it that way. That's a way to get people together so that they could get the shot.

DR. NILI KAPLAN-MYRTH: That's right. And I mean, we did like we. We immunise more than 2000 people. My reaching out to essential workers and others, we closed the street in front of my office. The city councillors helped me. We did this amazing thing over the spring. In the summer, there was a certain amount of trust, a trust that the people who are going to be there are all going to be kind and gentle and respectful. It felt amazing for everybody who was there, but now our colleagues who advocated for pregnant women to be vaccinated because pregnant women were ten times more likely to end in the ICU if they got COVID, they're being attacked. Anybody who talks about children and vaccines as we're approaching the ability to to immunise kids across Canada, we're being particularly targeted and we're scared when it comes to immunising kids because of that.

MG: And just to be clear, I mean, getting sent a death threat, police, where are they? Where are they at in terms of investigating something like this?

DR. NILI KAPLAN-MYRTH: Well, it took four days for them to respond to my giving them the information about the death threat. They phoned me at midnight four days later to say, OK, they got this and would I like to have a police cruiser, come to my home or to my office? And and then from there, they're they're investigating. I don't quite understand why it takes as long as it does when they know who the person is. I don't know why it takes so long for them to charge the person, but until that person is charged, then they can't have any form of restraining order to say that they are not allowed to come within a certain distance of me. The police process, I mean, that's well known that things take a long time and that the onus is really on me to explain why I am actually in danger.

MG: I want to talk more in just a moment about what might happen in the next coming days and weeks. But let me bring in Dr. Katharine Smart into our conversation. She's president of the Canadian Medical Association. Dr. Smart. Good morning to you.

DR. KATHARINE SMART: Thanks for having me.

MG: How familiar do these stories sound to you when you speak with other doctors in this country? Are they sharing similar stories?

DR. KATHARINE SMART: Yes. Unfortunately, all too familiar, we are hearing these types of stories from our colleagues across the country. It's happening everywhere. We're seeing it here in small town of Whitehorse, Yukon, where I live. And really, I think in every city and place across Canada, physicians who have been so vocal in advocating for our communities and trying to get the correct information out there are barraged with this type of violence and online violence in particular, really on a daily basis at this point.

MG: What about for yourself? I mean, again, you have a very public profile, not just as the president of the CMA, but as a doctor who has been speaking out about the importance of public health in the course of this pandemic. What are you facing?

DR. KATHARINE SMART: Yeah, absolutely. Unfortunately, I have experienced this myself as well. And you know, as we are starting to talk more about children, I think the threats and the sort of her online harassment are increasing. But I think really the message today for me is is to not so much make it about me, but to really be clear that this is an issue that's impacting all health care professionals across the country. And we really need collective action to move forward with some solutions so that physicians, nurses, other health care professionals can feel safe.

MG: We asked Dr. Darren Markland, the doctor in Edmonton, what he would like. You see, as a response to this sort of abuse, take a listen.

SOUNDCLIP

Well, I think if we outline rules of engagement, they can't be without some form of enforcement. The challenge with any social policy is the way to make it real and make it accessible. I think when I found out who my stalker was and when I actually found out information about them, this was somebody who had been organising marches, had multiple complaints against them and nothing had been followed through on. That takes resources and that takes commitment and that takes political willpower too.

MG: Dr. Smart, what is the CMA asking governments to do about this sort of abuse?

DR. KATHARINE SMART: We are asking for the federal government to follow through on their commitment to amend the Criminal Code to include harassment and threats towards health workers, specifically both physical threats and online threats. And we're also reaching out to social media platforms and asking them to work with us to create safer spaces online for health advocacy.

MG: What would amending the Criminal Code do specifically here?

DR. KATHARINE SMART: We think if there's legislation in place that specifically makes it illegal to harass and threaten health care workers, that then there's that opportunity to actually see action when people are receiving these threats. We know these things are very underreported because often there's no action that comes from reporting. But once there's a legislative piece there, it means that the police now have something to act on. We can have more confidence in reporting and hopefully we start to see more accountability so this behaviour starts to change.

MG: What difference would that be in terms of laws that are in place now? I mean, we're talking about death threats being sent to Dr. Kaplan-Myrth and others that, you know, there are there are laws against that. What's different here, do you think?

DR. KATHARINE SMART: I think what we're looking for is to expand beyond just those very extreme examples of death threats, which obviously are very serious and need to be dealt with in a serious fashion. And as you say, there are protections for those things. But what we're seeing is we're just seeing an overall escalation of violence in general, harassment, bullying that's happening and it's emboldening people to take action in person. And that's really concerning. But also the fact that this action is happening almost daily online is creating a culture where people aren't safe to speak out, and we're really concerned that we don't want this to be the legacy of this pandemic, that health care workers are having to face this type of violence just by doing their job.

MG: Dr. Dosani, we know that there are provinces that have brought in legislation creating sort of safe bubbles around hospitals to protect health care workers from anti-vaccine protesters. British Columbia just announced legislation this week. Quebec has done this. Does that work? Does that send a message? Do you think?

DR. NAHEED DOSANI: I think when our governments put out policies that stand with science and with health workers, it sends a message that they hate that that is being sent. Our way is not OK. And you know, we didn't see every province stand with health workers around, you know, ensuring there were safe spaces around hospitals. And that's really unfortunate because it did embolden people, but it also extends far beyond that. You know, the online hate that we see needs to be addressed. It's hard enough working a double shift, working overtime, then having to open your inbox and seeing a video of someone spitting at you, which is what happened to me. On top of everything, I mean, it's a real privilege and an honour to serve Canadians throughout this pandemic, and we'll continue to do it, but nobody deserves to receive that kind of hate. So absolutely, legislation around hospitals is important legislation that protects health workers who are advocating online and putting pressure on social media corporations who are making millions and millions of dollars off of us. I'm talking about Twitter, I'm talking about Facebook. I'm talking about matter. And to protect us, it blows my mind the kind of messages and the hate and the actual racial slurs I receive on my day messages on a platform like Instagram. And there's no like flags. There's no signal that goes up to say this is hate. They have all the algorithms in the world and they can't detect that it doesn't make any sense. They need to do more to protect us.

MG: What's the effect of that when you constantly are facing that? As you say, we were told, what, 21 months into this pandemic and I've spoken with you and other doctors, you're exhausted this far into it. What's the effect of reading that and seeing that all the time?

DR. NAHEED DOSANI: Certainly in the moment on the day of its demoralising, it's sad. There's many times where I just put my phone down and been like, Why am I doing this? Why are we doing this? And while those are short lived moments, it's very obvious why we're doing this, and it's conversations like this that explain the reason why we need to do this because we need to spread science, we need to send justice and we need our health workers during a pandemic when we needed our health workers more than ever before right now. And we need them to be safe, happy and healthy. It also, I hope conversations like this can catapult us into a place where we're talking about more empathy and compassion for the very people who are spreading hate towards us. I know that sounds really strange, but the way that I view these people, the many of them are, these are people who have fallen victim to misinformation. They have been radicalised by online hate and we need to to better understand their position. We need to be compassionate and empathetic towards them, but we also need clear direction to keep people safe and protect health workers across this country, too.

MG: Dr. Kaplan-Myrthy, what do you think is going on here? Like what? Why is this happening?

DR. NILI KAPLAN-MYRTH: Well, I mean, as as Dr. Dosani and Dr. Smart have both said, like there is a there is a movement this radicalisation the, you know, before vaccine mandates came in, we saw people throwing stones at the prime minister. There's an organised it is tied to white supremacism. Some of them are simply misinformed. But but actually, I think that most of the people who are sending us the death threats, those aren't the people who are just misinformed because those patients we can have conversations with respectfully and we can, you know, and there's never a sense that we're that we're under attack from now. We have a conversation. But when when we see in Canada and we're seeing this across really every country, when we see this kind of organised attack that is that is racist, sexist and anti-science like that is worrisome. If you if you think about the history of society and the way that humans tend to find scapegoats and they tend to create more chaos during during times of trouble and and the people who are under attack are often scientists and often artists and often people of colour and often Jews and often women. And that's what we're seeing, right? And that's where we say, you cannot cross that line. And I received a letter yesterday like, I think that we also need to balance is that there are so many good people out there. I got a letter yesterday at the same time as receiving yet another piece of hate mail. I got a beautiful letter from this couple I've never met saying that they are appalled and disheartened to hear about the abuse and vitriol that we in health care are facing. And they they concluded the letter by saying, Thank you for your strength and your conviction and your dedication all you do to keep the rest of us as safe as possible and really, truly like, I think we need to. We need to focus on that. We need to know that there are. That is why we keep getting up every day and we keep doing what we're doing right and when when we spend our time with our patients, we're reminded of why we do what we do.

MG: We're almost out of time. Let me just ask you both just a couple of quick, further things. One is Dr. Caplan Murtha's. You have said we are about to start vaccinating children in this country. How concerned are you for your own safety as we move into this next phase of tackling the pandemic?

DR. NILI KAPLAN-MYRTH: I'm concerned enough that I am not opening up vaccines to people who aren't my patients. I don't let anybody into my office where I haven't looked through the window to to know that I know them and that they're coming in. And that's sad, because all the people, all the adults that we immunise before those who have children would have wanted us to to immunise their kids as well. And instead, they're going to have to rely on public health and and, you know, our children's hospital and we're going to have venues for kids to get their vaccines. But I'm I can't put myself or my staff or all of those volunteers in a place where they might be dangerous in danger rather. And right now, it just does not feel like being out in in the public with a target on my back is really the thing to do.

MG: Dr. Smart, do you worry that this could what we're talking about could drive people out of the profession?

DR. KATHARINE SMART: I think unfortunately, we're already seeing so much attrition amongst health care professionals already that anything that leads to people feeling, you know, less safe in this work, I think is a real risk to retaining the health care professionals we need. So absolutely, it's just one more factor. I think that that we really need to be concerned about. And I think that, you know, what we're hearing also is the difference it makes when we do hear positive things from patients, positive feedback and not appreciation. And I think that's one of the ways we can also counter this is by reaching out and supporting each other and for the public to let people let the health care providers in their lives know that they do appreciate what they're doing. And and that I think is really critical right now because the moral distress amongst health care providers is really at an all time high.

MG: Just in the remaining seconds that we have then. And I'll start with you, Dr. Smart. What would you say to your colleagues there? Everyone's on the line together. You've all been in this shared experience in different circumstances, but a shared experience. What would you say to your colleagues, Dr. Smart?

DR. KATHARINE SMART: Or just say thank you for speaking out. Thank you for, you know, encouraging us at the CMA to speak out on your behalf and take action with the government, with the social media platforms, and we're committed to advancing on this. And I just have so much admiration for my colleagues and the work they do and the way they've served their communities throughout this pandemic.

MG: Dr. Nili Kaplan-Myrth.

DR. NILI KAPLAN-MYRTH: I would say that we've got your backs, I've got the backs of any of the colleagues who are out there in my community and across Canada and anywhere else in the world. We need to talk about this and we need to ensure that politicians respond and legislation changes.

MG: Dr. Dosani.

DR. NAHEED DOSANI: I would say that, you know, keep standing up for science and speaking out for justice, and we stand united, we stand together. And then an attack on one of us as health workers is an attack on all of us as health workers. And my optimism for the future and hope lies in the fact that we've been able to live through this collective trauma today together. But we've also built a collective resilience that will get us through this pandemic and beyond.

MG: Thank you all for the work that you're doing, and I'm glad to speak with you this morning. Take good care and thank you very much.

DR. NAHEED DOSANI: Thank you.

DR. NILI KAPLAN-MYRTH: Thank you.

MG: Thank you. Dr. Katherine Smart is president of the Canadian Medical Association. Dr. Nili Kaplan-Myrth is a family doctor in Ottawa. Dr. Naheed Dosani, palliative care physician in Toronto. We did get an update on the complaint lodged against Dr. Kaplan Murthy. The College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario has formed the preliminary view that it will not investigate the complaint or take further action as it considers the complaint to be frivolous, vexatious, made in bad faith or otherwise an abuse of process. Well, coming up after your regional update, I got a friend of mine wants to come out and we got to. We need to finish some unfinished business. All right. Say hello to Mr. Paul McCartney, please. There are very few people in the world who could invite their old friend, Paul McCartney on stage to jam Steve Van Zandt is one of them. He is much more than rock and roll royalty. He'll be here in 90 seconds, talk about pop and politics and more. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. Stay with us.

Why fighting apartheid with music might be Steven Van Zandt's proudest moment

Guest: Steven Van Zandt

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[Song]

MG: That's little Steven and the Disciples of Soul in 2017, playing with one Paul McCartney, Little Steven, also known as Steven Van Zandt, has led quite the life. He is a producer and actor and now a bestselling author. A member of the E Street Band with Bruce Springsteen and a human rights activist. And he writes about it all in his wild new memoir. It's called Unrequited Infatuations A memoir. Steven Van Zandt. Hello.

STEVEN VAN ZANDT: How are you, sir.

MG: That is one of those kind of pinch me moments, you're standing on a stage playing with Paul McCartney and I mean, you have this grin on your face. It's almost like you can't sing because you're smiling so much. What was that like?

STEVEN VAN ZANDT: That was arguably the most incredible moment of my life. Certainly one of them. You know, he started off, you know your life as a 13 year old listening to their first album. We thought it was the first album turn out to be the second, but trying to learn how to play guitar, listening, listening to them, and then suddenly, in a blink of an eye, he's standing next to you on stage. So it was, I mean, him coming on stage with the E Street Band in Hyde Park was was amazing. He then invited me and Bruce on stage with him at Madison Square Garden, which was amazing. But coming on my stage with my band, in a little club that was just an extraordinary endorsement of everything I've done and everything I am. It was that heavy moment. Somebody jumping off Mount Rushmore to pat me on the back.

MG: you talk in the book about, I mean, seeing them on Ed Sullivan and saying it was a bit like, you know, a spaceship landing in Central Park. And part of that was like the impetus for you being in a band. You're a band guy and you're really insistent in the book on being a band guy. What does that mean?

STEVEN VAN ZANDT: Well, it means I don't have the I was I was never really into show business per se as a kid. I like it now, actually. But but back then, when you're building your identity, you are who you like, then you are what you like. I didn't have any particular proclivity for showbusiness or any particular need to be in the spotlight. And the band thing, I mean, one must keep in mind the day before that. The British invasion Big Bang February nine, 1964, when the Beatles played a variety show called Ed Sullivan the day before, there were no bands in America. I mean, you didn't see four or five guys singing and playing. There was just no such thing. If you went through high school dance, it was an instrumental band. And then and then, you know, the day after everybody had a band in the garage, you know, it was. So it was a complete cultural shift. And it was a different communication, you know, I mean, individuals are naturally. It's all about me, me, me, right? And I'm in the spotlight. You fall in love with me or you don't, you know, a band communication is us. It's the team, the gang, the posse. It's about friendship. It's about family. And ultimately, it communicates community. And that's what attracted me. And so I was very, very attracted to the fact that it was a lifestyle that was and I wanted to be part of that lifestyle more than I wanted to be part of show business.

MG: Do you feel that that has, I mean, in some ways governed your career over the over the course of decades with with Springsteen, but also in your own music that that that, as you say, it's a lifestyle.

STEVEN VAN ZANDT: Yeah, I mean, once I was sort of forced into doing a solo career, which I never really wanted because of my obsession with politics, which is the most personal sort of. Sort of thing, you know, politics and religion, I suppose I would immediately turn my solo bands into into bands, always they they always had plenty of personality and I always gave them a chance to express themselves separately. So even when I was a solo act myself, it was a band thing. But I've always maintained that, I mean, whether it was The Sopranos, I was determined to turn The Sopranos into a into a band, because I want to experience the acting world. Coming from music, it was a different vibe. It was a different, different sort of, a little bit more defensive, a little bit more, because of the nature of that particular art form, that particular craft, you know, either you get the part or the other guy gets the part, I suppose, is a little bit more, you know, dog, eat dog or whatever the phrase might be, where in music, you know, it's kind of room for everybody, you might you might get into some competitive things for fun, but it's not. Not really, there's plenty of room for everybody.

MG: Did you know, did you know when you started playing with with Bruce that it was going to be like that, that it was going to be like that kind of gang? I mean, obviously he's out front, but there's a gang, right?

STEVEN VAN ZANDT: Oh, yeah, yeah. No, we were always it was always a band thing. Even when I talked him into using his name, he didn't want to use his name. You know, always looking out for my own career. I actually talked him into using his name. And even then, it was still a band. We were all. We were very, very conscious of the band thing for the simple fact. There's no such thing as a rock solo artist other than Bob Dylan. I mean, he's literally the only exception to the rule. But the fact is, there's no such thing as a solo artist. Rock is about bands. Pop is about individuals. You want to be an individual, then you better have a pop career.

MG: When I ask you about a story from 1980, you and Bruce Springsteen are in Germany and you go through Checkpoint Charlie divides East and West Berlin. What was that like? I mean, that's at the height of the Cold War. What was it like making that cross?

STEVEN VAN ZANDT: And it was scary. I got to tell you it was like The Twilight Zone. I mean, you know, you just. I think I put it in the book. You know, you left, you know? Colour and Cinemascope and went into a black and white movie. It was just so depressing. We went, I think we went to a couple of bars, restaurants and and literally it was like those horror movies, with who are the tourists go into the the Transylvanian bar, it's about to be nightfall. You know, they don't know about the vampires that are about to come out. It had that kind of vibe and it was just a real paranoid, you know? I don't even think we struck up a conversation with anybody. I think we were we were too paranoid ourselves. And it was really it was really quite startling and we didn't stay long. We can stay too long.

MG: You had a pivotal conversation when you were on that trip with a young German kid and the kid asks you a question, what was what was the question?

STEVEN VAN ZANDT: It asked me in the park? And he says, listen, he says, tell me something why you're putting missiles in our country. And I really, really had no idea what he was talking about, I mean, I was the least political guy in the world. I mean, I managed to get through the entire 60s without a political thought. I thought the questioning was ridiculous and and I just kind of fluffed it often and it just it just kept bothering me. I don't know how long for like weeks. And it finally came to the conclusion, which I'm a little bit slow. I was like, Wow, wait a minute. This kid, is not looking at me like a guitar player or, or a factory worker or a Republican or a Democrat is looking at me as an American. And, you know, I'm embarrassed to say, I mean, it had never even occurred to me before. I realise I'm an American at the age of 30, you know, and and I thought, Well, we're supposed to be a democracy. I mean, I found out later, of course, we're not really a democracy, but we got some democracy. And I said, Well, for democracy, I guess we are citizens, are responsible for what the government does, and I guess I am putting missiles in this country. And I wonder what else I'm doing. And at that point, the tunnel vision that I had on my whole life trying to make it in rock and roll had faded because we'd made it. The impossible dream had been realised at that moment, I mean, the fifth album, The River was a real success. Yeah, and selling out arenas and that was the top of the game. I thought. And so I said, well, I wonder what else I'm doing, I wonder what I wonder whether what other obligations and responsibilities I have as a citizen of America, The United States and. And so I started reading books the first time in my life learning about our foreign policy since World War Two. And I had the fortune or misfortune of beginning with a guy named Noam Chomsky. So you can imagine where you know my education went.

MG: It takes you all over the world, right? I mean, you end up, you do travel and you're in various places kind of learning about things and then. You end up hidden under a blanket. Kid from New Jersey riding through South Africa. Yeah. How does something like that happen? Who are you and who are you going to meet? You should explain who you're going to meet.

STEVEN VAN ZANDT: had made two trips to South Africa because I was doing the research. And at that point, I was about to transform from an artist journalist, which I had been doing my previous whatever two and a half albums. I was about to turn into an artist, journalist, activist, but so so I began to I began to go a little bit deeper and ended up really getting involved, obviously in the South African issue, where up until then I was just learning about things and writing about them, you know, not really becoming involved, deciding I went down to two different trips in 84. I guess it was the height of apartheid. Yeah. And the second time I went to Soweto, which was the basic ghetto where the black people lived, they divided the divided the country up into these areas that were easily controllable, waiting for the inevitable revolution to come so they could basically exterminate them in a more convenient way. There were uprisings happening a little bit more frequently, and there was an uprising at that time. They had a military blockade around Soweto. And Soweto was big. I mean, it's a huge, huge ghetto. Anyway, so I had I was trying to take my research now to another level. I had interviewed quite a few people. I'm trying to get to the heart of this whole matter. You know, is a boycott appropriate or not? Because a boycott is very, very tricky business. You know, most of the time it hurts the people you're trying to help. And so, I was really trying to get to the bottom of it and in doing all this very, very deep research. And finally, I said, I need to meet with the guys who were on the front lines because I met with the ANC, I met with the main political parties who were in exile. But I wanted to meet the guys who were on the front lines who were blowing up stuff and killing people and really in it. Yeah, called the Zambian people's organisation. It was just revolutionary. It was it was an army, an army, a revolutionary army. And so I wanted him. I wanted to meet with them because they were the hardest, the hardcore of the hardcore, they were. They were they were tough guys. You know, they were they were scary. I fortunately lost all fear because on that plane ride to South Africa, I realised that I'd blown my life. I really I wasn't changing jobs at that point. I had ended my life, left

MG: the door out of the band.

STEVEN VAN ZANDT: And yeah, I mean, 15 years of work, 15 years, since I started playing, took to making it. We just made it. We just had our first success. The year before and then suddenly I realised I just I just blew my life and all the fear left my body. I'd never been a good flyer. And then suddenly I lost all fear, which was really came in handy. It was quite convenient at that point to deal with, especially guys like this. I was like, What are you going to do? Kill me. Good. Do me a favour.

MG: And you were talking to the man, you went to them not just to hear from them, but you went to them with a like an idea for how to help.

STEVEN VAN ZANDT: You know, it's not very often you sit down and say, OK, how can I bring down a government? How can a guitar player from New Jersey bring down a government? And I said, You know, so I just figured it out. And the short story is I was using the Sun City resort, which they were pretending was in a different country.

MG: Which is where how people were able to go and play there and kind of, you know, skirt around the boycott, essentially.

STEVEN VAN ZANDT: Yeah. Well, it will violate the boycott. And they pretended that that you weren't, so they would overpay you to violate the boycott by playing. They're telling you that you're playing a different country. And that was all part of this, this brilliantly evil scheme to get the black people out of South Africa, declare it as a democracy and bring them all back as immigrant labour. Anyway, so as part of my strategy of hooking up the sports boycott, which was in effect and very effective thanks to Arthur Ashe and others, the home run was going to be the economic boycott at which point the government would fall. And so we used the bridge was a cultural boycott. So I say, well, we can use that and we'll use it to publicise what's going on with this phoney homeland policy, which was the policy of. Dragging black people out of the main cities back to their tribal homelands, which didn't exist, really, and then declaring those homelands as separate countries and then bringing them back as immigrant labour. So to expose that whole phoney homeland policy and we use the Sun City Resort. And and so I had to go in there and sell it. And also my strategy was, you know, I know the typical thing to do is to get all the all the good guys in the room and with all the differences, and let's hammer out those differences and come up with a plan. And I just think that's why the good guys always lose because the bad guys are always completely united and unified and the good guys are always fighting amongst each other. And we're seeing it now in my country. It's just disaster going on. So I said, you know what? I'm not going to let anybody get in the same room because they're is going to kill each other live. I'm going to get each one of them to agree to my plan. And so by doing that, they're all going to be agreeing with each other. And it was it was the basic. It was the basic idea anyway. I mean, the base the boycott idea was the was the big idea that the U.N. obviously endorsed and all of the real activists and and people inside endorsed.

MG: What did you think the power of music was in this? I mean, what could music do around the world to get people's attention on this issue that other things hadn't been able to?

STEVEN VAN ZANDT: I guess it was just in the air, with the we are the world and they know it's Christmas and and Live Aid, and there had been a controversy because there was very few black people involved in Live Aid. They only added a couple of black people the very last moment. So in some ways, we were kind of conscious of being the little bit of a different approach, and the people we chose to be on society were not because it was famous, because of what they were saying with their work. And somehow were engaged in some kind of social activity on social social consciousness or political consciousness. And and that's why we were the first ones to add the rappers to the record and people were with so, so you know, I was out of my mind.

MG: I mean, let me OK, so let me we're going to play a little bit. I mean, if you were watching television in 1986, you wouldn't heard it on the radio, which you make the point of in the book. That radio didn't play this, but MTV played this. This is a little bit of this video.

SOUNDCLIP

[Song]

MG: Steve Van Zandt, I mean, you take a look at that video now and the line-up of people that are in there is incredible; Run-D.M.C., Lou Reed, Miles Davis, I mean, the list goes on and how did you manage to get everybody people who perhaps would never, ever want to work together to work together on this same project?

STEVEN VAN ZANDT: Oh, it was. It was Arthur Baker's phone book.

MG: Great legendary producer.

STEVEN VAN ZANDT: And yeah, there was. It was. There was four of us involved here, and all of us were equally important. Danny Schecter was the guy who really helped publicise the whole thing, or else nobody would have known about it. Arthur Baker not only had his phone book, but his studio is his musicians. And so, other than a few of my friends, it was mostly people in his phone book. I got I got Miles Davis just by luck of his old sound, and my old sound man was his sound man. And we got to him, and it just happened to be a subject that he was extremely passionate about because he never did those things. And that was a really that's when I knew we had something when he walked in.

MG: What impact do you think it had? I mean, when you take a look at apartheid? I mean, when when the world comes together like that, what impact do you think it had?

STEVEN VAN ZANDT: Well, in this case, it had it held the ultimate impact. I mean, you know, I don't think we'll ever see such a total success again in our lifetimes. I mean, our challenge, and I know it's hard to imagine now, was raising the consciousness of America because it wasn't an issue. It wasn't like it was a forgotten issue or a lost issue. it was just not an issue. And that was not the case in Europe and probably not the case in Canada. But but we just a couple of people would mention it now and then and try and do something with it. Harry Belafonte or Randall Robinson and people like that. But it just had no momentum. And I knew right from the day I sat down and said, OK, how do I do this? That the economic sanctions bill, which would inevitable, which was going to come some day, that bill is going to go across Ronald Reagan's desk and Ronald Reagan, part of the unholy trinity of who are supporting apartheid Jim Thatcher in Coal UK and Germany. He's going to veto it, and it's really hard to explain to people how strong Reagan was in those days. I mean, he was God. And and so we had to raise enough consciousness to override a Reagan veto, which was quite a challenge. And and we managed to do it because we knew once once we got the sanctions bill through the banks, we cut them off and would fall like dominoes. And that's exactly what happened. And they had to release Mandela.

MG: What was it like watching him walk out of prison?

STEVEN VAN ZANDT: Oh my God. Probably the most thrilling moment of my life. Closely followed by by electing a black President Obama, which was impossible to believe with such a prejudiced country, which now everybody knows. But I mean, that was an incredible tool by by watching him come out with something that was completely surreal. You didn't think you'd see that in your lifetime. And that was, yeah, quite a quite a moment

MG: I mean, you write this book when you sit back and you think about those actions and I mean, it's not. You worked with Native Americans. You did work in Latin America. You continued to do politics. I mean, what is it at its heart? What do you think is behind that? Like, what's driving you when you're doing that?

STEVEN VAN ZANDT: A sense of justice. I mean, I just I hate bullies always have some kind of attracted to fighting them wherever possible and just a sense of justice and taking patriotism seriously. Patriotism is not owned by any political party. I don't even believe in a political party system at all. And now we're seeing the result of political parties at its most extreme in my country. It's just football teams and all that matters is your team winning.

MG: Where are the protest songs now, do you think? I mean, you talked about what's happening in the United States, and it's a very divided country right now where the protest songs, do you think?

STEVEN VAN ZANDT: I think possibly because we're so fragmented. We no longer have that mass shared experience that we still had in the 80s. I think now with with the whole social media mania and how divided we really are. I just don't I don't think you can really pull off that kind of mass share experience anymore.

MG: He did a tune, though, with Bootsy Collins just recently about the climate crisis. And I mean, so that that suggests that that you still think that there's an opportunity for music to to grab people in a way that other things can't.

STEVEN VAN ZANDT: Sure, you grab the opportunities when you can, and I'm never going to give up on it. I mean, I'm always going to try and do. Something say something about Bush's idea. He's very passionate about it, as, am I? You know, and I wish we had taken a much stronger approach with this administration, but you're going to get to try and do things when you can.

MG: Before I let you go. Let me ask you about those big concerts when I see you on stage. Are you smiling? Still like, you love what you are doing? What do you still love about it? And what is it like to be up there in front of 50000 people who love the power of what it is that you're doing?

STEVEN VAN ZANDT: Performing for me is the fun part of life. I mean, it's it's the vacation. People think, Oh, you're going to work going on tour. No, I go to work the minute I step off the stage. Anytime I don't have to think it's a vacation, it's fun. It's it's where, I've been doing it so long. It's where you feel most at home. Most relaxed actually is on stage with the E Street Band. I mean, it's, you know, the Bruce is doing all the work, I just have a terrific front row seat. You know, that's how I see it.

MG: You have lived some life and you have some great great stories in this book. It's a real pleasure to talk to you about some of them. Thank you very much.

STEVEN VAN ZANDT: Thank you, my friend.

MG: Thank you. Take care. Bye bye. Steven Van Zandt, member of the E Street Band with Bruce Springsteen and the author of a new book. It's called Unrequited Infatuations, a Memoir. That is The Current for this Friday and for this week. Coming up next on CBC Radio one, it's Q. You don't want to miss this one. One of the biggest pop stars in the world, Adele brand new album just out this morning, joining Tom Power for a Canadian exclusive interview about the new album. It's called 30. She'll talk to Tom about making the record about how her divorce and personal journey in many ways informs this work. An in-person, exclusive interview with Adele coming up in just a few moments on CBC Radio One. You heard Steven Van Zandt there talking about his glory days as a rock and roll icon, a political activist and an actor. It's the kind of thing you could write a song about. This is Steve Van Zandt on guitar, Bruce Springsteen and glory days. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. Have a great weekend!

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Friday November 19, 2021 Full Transcript

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