Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2021

The Current Transcript for October 13, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

We have signs in the store that say, Dear customers defeat global supply chain constraints, please expect product delays. I have never, ever seen anything as bad as it is now.

MATT GALLOWAY: Where's my stuff? It's a question you might be asking more frequently these days. The pandemic has gummed up the global supply chain, leading to shortages of everything from books to snow shovels in 30 minutes, why retailers and economists are worried, and why you might want to do your holiday shopping sooner rather than later. Also this morning, Giller prise winning author Ian Williams had a choice to make.

SOUNDCLIP

I had this sense with the last book you write be, if climate change really did sort of kill us at that moment, I was working on a novel called Disappointment. I think maybe that should not be the last book I ever write.

MG: The book that he wrote instead in the wake of George Floyd's murder, was a highly personal and pointed meditation on what it means to be black in Canada now. In an hour, Ian Williams is here to talk about the feeling of disorientation, racism in Canada and why he didn't want to write this book. We start, though, in Afghanistan, in a country on the brink. Good morning, my name is Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Growing humanitarian crisis in Afghanistan

Guests: Susan Ormiston, Eileen McCarthy

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Noises and chatter]

MG: The humanitarian situation in Afghanistan could hardly be more urgent. People in many cities line up for food every day. As you can hear in this scene at a World Food Programme drop in Kabul, the WFP estimates that 95 percent of Afghans don't have enough to eat. Months of infighting, plus an ongoing drought and economic insecurity have forced more than half a million Afghans to flee their homes in the past year. People like this woman who is living in a camp outside Mazar el Sharif after her husband and sons were killed in fighting. She spoke with D.W Radio about what her life is like.

SOUNDCLIP

I've got nowhere else to go. All the responsibility for my daughters is now on my shoulders. Everything is so expensive. Me and some of the other women here go begging in the city. We collect scraps of bread to bring back to the camp for everyone to eat.

MG: The CBC's Susan Ormiston has been in Afghanistan this week and we've reached her in Kandahar. Susan, good morning.

SUSAN ORMISTON: Good morning.

MG: We're hearing that figure of ninety five percent of Afghans, as I mentioned, without enough to eat. What have you seen on the ground in terms of that hunger? What what's been catching your eye?

SUSAN ORMISTON: Well, the economy is in a freefall. Not everyone tells you that everyone you talk to on the street, in a hospital, you know, doing their jobs, they don't have any work. Since the Taliban swept into these provinces in the last three to four months, work has disappeared. So that's the fundamental problem. They don't have income, they don't have cash to buy food. So we were at a hospital, for example, the Indira Gandhi Hospital for Children in Kabul last week, and we visited a children's ward where mothers were bringing in their infants malnourished, severely malnourished. They're seeing a steep rise in those kids. They're coming in. We saw twin girls, one year old, one of them was just over eight pounds, Matt. That's half a healthy weight for a one year old. Another three year old, you know, his arm was like, you put your two fingers together. That's how small it was, you know, sallow skin, dark eyes, really difficult problems. And these mothers are bringing them into the hospital in Kabul, matt, because in the province's health services are collapsing. As the Taliban came in, the government's changed. The NGOs and money started to stop, and these things haven't been restarted. So these families can't get help in the provinces, so they're trying to come into Kabul to get help. It's- I can't say enough how desperate it is. I mean, we've we've talked to people who are saying that, you know, malnutrition is always a curse in Afghanistan. Poverty is extremely high here, but we're seeing a really severe uptick in these last few months.

MG: And this is across society. And again, you're in Kandahar now, but you were in Kabul. You're talking about what's happening in in the provinces as well. This is right across the breadth of society?

SUSAN ORMISTON: Yes, because this job situation, it's been so insecure here for so many months, and just think of this jobs like the Afghan National Police District Police, jobs and government jobs in NGOs, all these have disappeared overnight. Experts are saying that 20 percent of the jobs just vanished in a week and they haven't been restarted yet. So that's the fundamental problem. I mean, the WFP is saying, for example, that by next year you could see 97 percent of Afghans in poverty, reaching the poverty line.

MG: If people are able to put together money to get to a store, are there supplies in in grocery stores? Are there supplies in markets?

SUSAN ORMISTON: Yes, there's food, a lot of food and beautiful food down here in Kandahar. Fresh food. It's available. The problem is buying it, not to get it. And so that's the fundamental problem. It's not a necessarily a lack of food. However, the drought is in. It's multiple [unintelligible] here in Afghanistan. I mean, we were out in the rural areas outside of Kandahar today. They're saying the water table is so low, 90 percent of their crops may fail. They're desperate for winter. In Kabul, for example, some snow to come to try to alleviate this drought, which is serious. And so that is adding to the food insecurity.

MG: Are there any international organisations that are able to do work in Afghanistan now that would be able to to help meet the desperate need?

SUSAN ORMISTON: Yeah, many. I mean, the World Food Programme has not stopped its distribution. It's restarted it. And in fact, it's it's elevating it now trying to get more food at the borders of Afghanistan to meet the demand in the coming winter. There are many NGOs who stayed, you know, they went into to pause for a while to see how they could operate, whether it would be secure. The Taliban, you know, I had a Taliban district chief tell me today that they want to guarantee security for humanitarian aid. The United Nations mission in Afghanistan has met directly with the Taliban, urging them to secure the routes for aid, which they said they will. So it is beginning to restart. But what they are looking for in Afghanistan now is for international organisations to sever the politics from the aid, saying, you know, don't punish the children and women and men of Afghanistan because of the politics. If you don't want or like the Taliban government, one doctor in that hospital told me, don't use this is as your way of punishing Afghanistan. You know, figure out a way to separate money for people and your politics and your recognition or not of the Taliban government.

MG: The World Food Programme has said the same. I mean, the the country director for Afghanistan, Mary Ellen McGroarty, has said do not condemn children to hunger in Afghanistan. But how likely is it that international observers in nations around the world that have been condemning the Taliban are likely to decouple their policies from the Taliban itself so that they that they will allow aid to continue to flow if they are still not recognising the Taliban as the government of Afghanistan.

SUSAN ORMISTON: Well, I'm not going to speak for the aid organisations because that's not my my zone in terms of their politics, but we are already seeing money coming in. I mean, Canada upped its humanitarian aid contribution by 50 million this summer into Afghanistan. So there are ways of doing it, and I'm seeing signs that NGOs are becoming more confident about operating in the country. There has been some insecurity in the country since we've been here. You know, multiple explosions is claiming responsibility. This unsettles people, makes it more difficult for aid organisations to work. But it appears from what I've seen that things are restarting, but the need is has really dramatically increased.

MG: You also wonder whether Afghans will, I mean, they've been put in a very difficult position with the Taliban sweeping in and destabilising the country. Whether they will be looking to the Taliban to stabilise the economy, to get that money, their aid is one thing, but also making sure that the economy can restart what kind of pressure is on the Taliban to get those wheels moving?

SUSAN ORMISTON: Huge pressure, huge pressure to start managing the country to start being the government. People are settling in now, they have to, they have no choice to the Taliban being the government, but it's been slow to have these processes get in motion. Schools, for example, they're not open for girls aged grades seven to 12 yet. They're promising they will be, but we haven't seen it. Just one example of how there's pressure on them to start providing the services of a government. They've been an insurgency for 20 years now. People are saying, OK, you're in the governor's office now, give me what I need. And at the moment it's food security and jobs.

MG: And this is an urgent situation that is only going to get worse.

SUSAN ORMISTON: Yes, winter is coming here and winter is cold and cruel in Kabul. And you know, Afghanistan is exceedingly poor country. I mean, there are women in burkas begging on the streets everywhere. Many women have six to eight children and can't feed them. In that hospital, the mother of that, those twins looked at me and said, Look, I know I have to do something, but I don't know what to do. So, you know, it's already a desperate situation. And as Mary Ellen McGroarty of WFP told us at a food distribution centre in Kabul, she's been in the WFP for a long time, a career humanitarian person. And she said she's never seen a collapse like this so fast.

MG: Susan, thank you very much.

SUSAN ORMISTON: You're welcome.

MG: Susan Ormiston, senior correspondent for CBC News. She was in Kandahar. G20 leaders met in a special session yesterday to discuss the situation inside Afghanistan and how best to help the EU boosted its aid to a total of one billion euros. And the Italian Prime Minister Mario Draghi said the country has agreed to send the bulk of the humanitarian aid through the United Nations. But he stressed that it will be difficult to entirely avoid involving the Taliban. Eileen McCarthy is the advocacy manager for the Norwegian Refugee Council in Afghanistan. We've reached her this morning in Nairobi, Kenya. Eileen, good morning to you.

EILEEN MCCARTHY: Good morning, thanks for having me.

MG: Thank you for being here. We're hearing that billion euros figure just briefly, what's your understanding of what exactly G-20 leaders have committed to as a result of yesterday's meeting?

EILEEN MCCARTHY: Yeah, thanks, I think we are really encouraged to see agreement amongst the G20 members on the urgency of the situation in Afghanistan and an effort to work collectively to avert that humanitarian catastrophe that we have been highlighting for recent weeks and months and a commitment to further funding. I think we are quite conscious, though, that time is running out and these discussions cannot continue for weeks and months on end while the people in Afghanistan are the ones who are really suffering the most. So it's really urgent that this money is able to hit organisations like ours and others through the U.N. and NGOs to actually be able to reach those most in need. Well, we're also looking at how some of that funding that is tied up the development funding World Bank assets are actually finding solutions over the long term so that the assistance can continue to reach those Afghans on the ground.

MG: How does all of that happened with the Taliban in power?

EILEEN MCCARTHY: I think at the moment, we as a humanitarian organisation, have been operating in the country for years and have worked both in previous government and non-government controlled areas. So we've been discussing quite actively with the new authorities about ensuring principled humanitarian access, ensuring that we and all of our teams are able to reach those Afghans most in need and ensuring that we are able to operate in the way that we were previously. So humanitarian organisations are having those active conversations are seeking to scale up our response in the interim, but also can't be part of the entire solution. So we need to see where the international community is looking at these longer term solutions to make sure that it's not Afghans on the ground and who are struggling to survive day to day who are really left behind by these political negotiations.

MG: But again, when you hear calls from NGOs like yours to sever the politics from the age, does that mean involving the Taliban? Does that mean recognising that the Taliban is the government of Afghanistan to ensure that that aid gets to, as you said, the desperate people on the ground in that country?

EILEEN MCCARTHY: I think what we recognise in Afghanistan and across the world is that whoever is in control of an area and a population has responsibilities and commitments to the populations under their control. So we have always worked with all parties to conflict to be able to ensure that aid reaches those most in need and we will continue to do that in Afghanistan. And I think in the meantime, ensuring that the commitments they are making to upholding principles of humanitarian access and ensuring the safety of all of our humanitarian workers, both men and women, and that the assistance reaches those most in need independently of other actors. I think ensuring that those commitments and those statements are put into practise is what we really are hoping to see.

MG: You said men and women, one of the issues that many NGOs are facing is whether female staff would actually be able to remain involved in the work that they're doing. What is the position of the NRC on this? I mean, what are you hearing about on the ground?

EILEEN MCCARTHY: Yeah. As the Norwegian Refugee Council, we see our female staff as really critical to the way that we operate and that we reach all of Afghans in need of assistance, in particular being able to reach women and girls. So that's been one of the main topics that we have been discussing with authorities across the country to ensure that we have assurances that our female staff will be able to work alongside our male staff and that will be able to reach women and girls through our programming. And this is how we've operated in Afghanistan for years and want to be able to continue that. And I think going forward, it will also be incumbent upon us and authorities on the ground to make sure also that women and girls are also benefiting from that assistance and that our teams have the willingness and the commitment and feel safe to be able to continue our work, recognising that the situation on the ground is extremely urgent and that in order for us to actually be able to reach the entire population, we need to be able to operate with both our male and female staff.

MG: Do you have assurances from the Taliban that that's possible?

EILEEN MCCARTHY: Yet many areas of the country, as we are continuing these negotiations, we have gotten commitments of commitments and assurances that we are able to operate as we were previously both with our male and female staff. So now as we're looking to resume our programming, we're undertaking those security assessments, the operational assessments, so that we can pivot our programming to reach some of those urgent needs, like food and water and winterisation assistance, and that we also know that our staff will feel safe returning and we are trying to understand that better and make sure that this is a process going in the future as well.

MG: There is a dramatic, as we heard it, lack of access to cash in Afghanistan right now, and that's being felt on an individual level where people just simply can't get the money to buy the food and the supplies that they need. What does that mean for an organisation like yours?

EILEEN MCCARTHY: Definitely, I think what we are seeing from people from Afghans themselves, they've taken on high levels of debt just to be able to pay for food and water and education and health care. For organisations like ours, the cash crisis is also extremely challenging in our ability to pay our staff and our suppliers and to be able to procure the goods that we need, blankets and tents, to be able to actually meet those needs on the ground. So at the moment, much of our buying of supplies has to happen outside the country, which makes it extremely challenging to operate and also more expensive and takes more time. And we're not able to support those local economies that we would have in inormal ways that we operate. So the banking in the cash crisis is also critically affecting our ability to scale up and needs to be addressed so that we can actually meet these urgent and growing needs over the coming weeks and months.

MG: You yourself had to flee the country in the middle of August.

EILEEN MCCARTHY: Yes, I did.

MG: Could you have imagined that things would have deteriorated as quickly as they have?

EILEEN MCCARTHY: I think we had an understanding of this and the scenarios that could play out, but the speed at which the Taliban took over the country was much faster than many of us expected. As the Norwegian Refugee Council, we have remained committed to staying and delivering assistance, recognising the humanitarian catastrophe that could play out in the country. We have reduced our international staff presence in the country, although we still have some of our senior leadership there. But we also recognise that the heart of the Norwegian Refugee Council is really the more than 1500 Afghan staff that we still have, who are still committed to working in the country and serving those most in need. And we'll look at how we can return and scale up our programmes, including the presence of international staff like myself in the future.

MG: I've spoken with a number of Afghans who are either still in the country or those who have fled, and the overwhelming sentiment that they use is one of frustration. They feel as though that their country has been abandoned by the global community. How worried are you that the world will have disengaged from this as this crisis exacerbates, as things get even worse, that the world has turned its back on Afghanistan?

EILEEN MCCARTHY: I think that's definitely something that I and many of my colleagues are concerned about. We have seen the commitments made in Geneva or Italy at the G20 this week in terms of the ongoing commitment from the international community towards the Afghan people. But it was extremely difficult to get attention on the humanitarian situation and Afghans themselves prior to recent months and weeks. So I think we're quite conscious of the urgency for action now and ongoing commitments towards the Afghan people in the future so that they can be sure that the gains that we've made over the past 20 years in terms of rights and progress on child mortality and girls in school, that those won't be lost in the future.

MG: What to you is at stake for the country, but also the people who are there if that international community doesn't respond in a commensurate way doesn't respond with the urgency that you're describing?

EILEEN MCCARTHY: Yeah, I think for the lives and livelihoods and well-being of nearly 40 million Afghans is what's at stake. We, the humanitarian crisis, pre-dated the current crisis that we're seeing in recent weeks and months and years and decades of conflict. The COVID 19 pandemic and subsequent droughts over years have left the humanitarian situation extremely dire across the country and now adding on to that the economic freefall and the rising poverty levels that we're seeing. The situation could not be more dire in the country, and I think now is the time in which we will set the precedent for how we as an international community will be supporting the people of Afghanistan and how, what our actions we take now that we can ensure that there is a positive future for the women and men and boys and girls of that country.

MG: We're just about out of time, but we only have a few seconds left. But are you confident that the world is paying attention?

EILEEN MCCARTHY: I am confident that it has the attention of the world at the moment, and I hope that that continues going forward.

MG: At the moment, I think, is a key phrase, Eileen, we'll leave it there and hopefully try it again in the meantime. Thank you very much.

EILEEN MCCARTHY: Thank you.

MG: Eileen McCarthy, advocacy manager for the Norwegian Refugee Council in Afghanistan. We reached her this morning in Nairobi, Kenya. You're CBC News is next. And then have you tried to buy a bike in the last year or so? What about a home appliance or a furniture piece or a book? Maybe something to go on that shelf that you were looking to buy that you can't buy because there are ongoing issues with the global supply chain, shelves are empty. We'll explain why this is still a problem and how that might be fixed. Coming up in about six minutes, my name is Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One.

Global supply chain problems lead to empty shelves and worried retailers

Guests: Kristi Weisberger, Barbara Vininsky, Thomas Goldsby

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway, you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Still to come, Ian Williams is an award winning author who has been reticent to speak his mind on race, that is until now. His new book Dives into some uncomfortable places. Ian Williams will be here in just under 30 minutes to tell us all about it. But first, why you might want to start your holiday shopping in October this year.

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

We have signs in the store that say dear customers due to global supply chain constraints, please expect product delays.

MG: That's Curtis Penner. He runs coast appliances in Winnipeg, and like so many others right now, he is at the mercy of global supply chain hold-ups.

SOUNDCLIP

This is the fridge I have at home. It's a beautiful fridge. But this particular model, if you wanted to order it today, you'd be looking at an E.T.A. from the manufacturer of July 2022. A lot of people know that there's microchips that go in everything from electronics to appliances to cars. And there's a worldwide shortage. I mean, parts are sourced from all over the world nowadays, and that's causing major issues. There's also plastics, glass that are in short supply as well. Then you also look at the shipping, OK, if you're bringing something over from China, South Korea, a lot of the manufacturers are paying a premium for the [unintelligible] to bring them over. We get E.T.A's from the manufacturers. They're basically updated every week and I saw on the other week that said E.T.A. of 2031. So I asked the question What does 2031 mean? The reply was, we have no idea when this is going to be built. I've been in this business for 30 years now and I have never, ever seen anything as bad as it is now.

MG: Nearly two years into this pandemic, disruptions to the global supply chain show no sign of letting up. And for workers like Curtis, the uncertainty of when products will arrive is one problem. It's the promise to hopeful customers that are starting to sting.

SOUNDCLIP

The worst customer I have is she purchased last September 2020, and she was moving into her house in December, and as of right now, I still do not have her fridge and the ETA on it is January or February. So it's mentally draining on a lot of the sales guys because we have customers that aren't happy and they take it personally. When they sell something, they can give an estimate. The customer and the customer will take that as gold, but it can change.

MG: Businesses are already worried. They won't be able to get products on the shelves to keep up with the shopping rush that is coming. Kristi Weisberger is feeling the pinch of the supply chain disruptions. She's operations manager at Owl's Nest Books in Calgary. Kristi, good morning.

KRISTI WEISBERGER: Good morning.

MG: How serious are delays in publishing right now? I mean, we're hearing about refrigerators arriving months after they were promised. What about when it comes to books?

KRISTI WEISBERGER: Right now, everything is up in the air. Not only are we facing the general supply shortages, we're also seeing there's a massive paper shortage. So books aren't even getting printed or they're getting printed in much smaller quantities than would normally happen. And printers have shut down. Last year, the biggest printer in the U.S. actually went bankrupt, and because of antitrust laws, the second largest printer was not allowed to buy them. So just getting books printed at this point is difficult. We've had books where they've been really popular. They have sold out and the publisher goes, eh, maybe in a couple of months we'll have more.

MG: You know, it's interesting that we spoke with an author, Rebecca Donner, a couple of weeks ago about her amazing new book. And we got all these comments from listeners saying, I love the interview. I can't find the book anywhere. That's because of the supply chain. You would never think that, but that's what's happening.

KRISTI WEISBERGER: Absolutely, we've got everything from traditional published to self-published authors are having trouble seeing their books in store. We have a local author here in Calgary who her book technically came out the end of September. She's still waiting for her copies to arrive so we can't get them in store.

MG: This is a strange time for publishing because a lot of us are still at home, and so people have a bit more time to read and they're buying books. We're also getting close to the holidays when people love to give books as a gift. So as a retailer, what is your strategy for Owl's Nest? I mean, as you prepare for Christmas? What are you doing to make sure that the books that people want are actually going to be available?

KRISTI WEISBERGER: Right now, the only thing we can do is try to buy as much as we can reasonably buy. We're putting ourselves out on a financial limb to try and get as much stock as we can now, which means a lot of times we're sort of making wild guess as to what we think is going to sell what we think people are going to be looking for and trying to bring that stock in. Big retailers like Amazon have giant warehouses all over the country, so they are buying up stock like crazy and packing them in their warehouses, so they'll be able to still meet that delivery within two days. Which also means we can't get the stock at all. So we're trying our best, but there's only so much we can try and do. And then we're just going to have to ride it out and hopefully we'll have enough. But there's no way for us to know.

MG: What does that mean, ride it out? When you say that you wrote on a financial limb and you're kind of betting on what books are going to be popular, but you're also competing with those big box stores. What does it mean to ride it out?

KRISTI WEISBERGER: It's we buy what we can because we have to pay within a month or so. So we're buying stuff now that we'll likely not sell to December. So all of our money is getting sunk into that stock that we've got in the store. And we're just hoping that we've made the right guesses that people will want to buy those books, that we're not going to be stuck with two or three dozen copies of a book that doesn't sell and that we aren't selling out too quickly of the books everybody does want.

MG: Just before I let you go, what do you say to your customers?

KRISTI WEISBERGER: Be patient with us. We are trying our hardest and please order early. The sooner you get your orders in, the more likely we're going to be able to guarantee the box. Right now, we aren't making any guarantees and shipping time is sometimes twice as long as normal. So whatever they can do now to help us out is so much appreciated.

MG: Kristi, good luck.

KRISTI WEISBERGER: Thank you so much.

MG: Kirsti Weisberger is the operations manager at Owl's Nest Box in Calgary. It's not just books. Barbara Vininsky is the owner of Jack and Jill in Montreal. It's a family owned business that sells clothing and toys. Barbara, good morning to you.

BARBARA VININSKY: Good morning.

MG: Does that sound familiar?

BARBARA VININSKY: Yes, it does.

MG: What's happening with your stock of toys and clothes? Because this is, as I mentioned, not just about refrigerators and books,

BARBARA VININSKY: but I would say the biggest problem for us right now is outerwear for kids, because under I've been working at Jack and Jill for over 30 years. And I'm in the past years, we used to have all our outerwear in stock ready for people to buy by the second week of August, because people buy their kids stuff earlier. Now we don't have anything. And the general consensus is it's on the water and it's coming. They did tell us there would be delays. This was a while back, but I had anticipated having all that outerwear in by now.

MG: You say you don't have anything like it? None of it has arrived.

BARBARA VININSKY: Nothing. Nothing. It's not arrived. I spoke to one of my suppliers yesterday, and they said- one of them said it's on the water. And the other one said, Well, it's delayed, coming down from New York to their show to their warehouse in Toronto. And they anticipate, hopefully that it will come by the end of the week, but it's already mid-October. So by the time you get going, get it stocked in private stock and get the word out that it's there, it's already you're in way over your head in terms of trying to get that sold.

MG: What happens if the seasonal clothes arrive behind schedule and as you say, you're way behind the eight ball alread?

BARBARA VININSKY: People want it on sale. You know what I'm saying? So to sell at a regular price becomes a bit problematic.

MG: They don't want to buy their winter coat in November or December or something like that.

BARBARA VININSKY: No. Normally, when people buy a winter coat in November, December, it was already you had some sort of markdowns at that time.

MG: How are you starting to plan? I mean, it's only October, but how are you starting to think about next spring and next summer? Are you ordering way in advance?

BARBARA VININSKY: Well, I am ordering in advance. Now we sell clothing. We've been in business 70 plus years, so we have a concept of clothing with gifts, toys and novelties. So it's more looking at my suppliers than what they have and when they're what, what they have and when they're shipping it to us. So we're trying to plan a little. We're trying to plan ahead in terms of what to get. But then. You know, you don't know what they're going to have, when they're going to have it. Companies that I do rely on, which I think we would be getting new stuff for, let's say, the back to school buying. We have not received that at all now. And the general consensus is supply chain, delays, it's on the water, it's coming. Be patient. Just so I'm trying to be patient.

MG: Well, I'm sure you're trying to be patient. But what does it mean for your bottom line? I mean, just before I let you go, you're a small business owner. How how precarious is this for you?

BARBARA VININSKY: It's a problem because you aren't going to get the out of worry and eventually I'm going to have to pay for it. I'm going to hope for the best, that I'm going to be able to sell it. So it's an output of that investment, but you don't know how it's going to return to you.

MG: You ever seen anything like this? I mean, your mother opened Jack and Jill in 1945.

BARBARA VININSKY: Never. I've never, ever seen anything like it. As I said winter selling for kids was the second week of August. You had a lot of [unintelligible].

MG: I wish you patience, but also the best of luck. I hope things arrive and as you say, they get off the water sooner rather than later. Barbara, thanks.

BARBARA VININSKY: Exactly. Thanks. Thanks a lot.

MG: Barbara Vininsky is the owner of Jack and Jill. It's a store in Montreal. Thomas Goldsby has been listening in to this. He's a professor of logistics at the Haslam College of Business at the University of Tennessee. Knoxville also serves as a co faculty director for the Global Supply Chain Institute at the College, who better to speak about things being stuck in the supply chain than someone like Thomas Goldsby Thomas? Good morning.

THOMAS GODLSBY: Good morning, Matt.

We hear a lot about the so-called global supply chain. I don't know that a lot of people actually understand what that means. So can you give us just a very brief primer? What is it? What are we talking about when we say the global supply chain?

THOMAS GODLSBY: Sure, Matt, I'll try to be brief, but I'll have to admit that I do get excited about these things. Pardon me. I think something that the pandemic has really brought to light is how globally distributed businesses. I think people routinely knew that we relied on long, distant locations for a variety of goods. But the truth is, we rely on these long distance sources for virtually everything, maybe not in a final form of a product, but maybe as key inputs or ingredients in products that are made right here in North America. You know, the truth is we've just become so globally dependent on each other, and hence the supply chains are globally connected, covering very long distances and whenever you have long distances involved. Well, a lot of vagaries can introduce themselves, a lot of uncertainty.

MG: You do exercises with your students to help them understand this, and you follow an item through the supply chain. Give me an example of that.

THOMAS GODLSBY: Certainly, I love to make this a supply chain one on one assignment as students are just embarking on their journey in supply chain to to appreciate what we've just described in the way of the complexities and vagaries of global supply chains. And so I encourage students to choose a very simple product. It might be a 12 ounce can of Coca-Cola. And I encourage them to map the supplies that go into that product. And what they quickly realise is that even a simple product like that has considerable complexity. For instance, Coca-Cola doesn't just work with immediate so-called Tier one suppliers, but they have suppliers who have suppliers who have suppliers and so forth. Right back to raw material extraction and my students soon learn that everything goes back to the Earth. We're dependent upon the Earth and its essence to feed our every need. And so I encourage students to try to go back to the Earth. If you will try to go back as far up the supply chain as they can and then also do the same thing downstream of the manufacture of the product, identify the parties that are involved in distributing and selling to ultimately consumers like you and me. What's really fascinating about this exercise is that every time my students have the opportunity to present their supply chain maps back to the company that they're modelling. The managers and executives with those companies learn something every time, something they themselves did not know about businesses and supply chains, they manage day in and day out.

MG: How easy is it given all of those pieces and as you said, you know, suppliers, four suppliers, four suppliers? How easy is it to knock that supply chain out of orbit?

THOMAS GODLSBY: It's quite easy. If anything is out of sync, if any one of those suppliers or transportation providers is having a bad day. It's going to ultimately delay the production of the product, the distribution and making those products available so that the likes of Curtis, Krisit and Barbara can make them available to consumers like you and me.

MG: What was it that knocked this out of sync in the early days of the pandemic?

THOMAS GODLSBY: Well, the first thing was just fear and anxiety, certainly. We just didn't know. You know, we've not experienced a pandemic on a global scale like this. And so what resulted immediately was the consumer being uncertain as to his or her future. And so we actually saw the bottoming out of demand as people were trying to figure out how they were going to navigate the pandemic. Now, it didn't take long before we learnt that we would be living our pandemic, at least in those early days at home. And so people's lives pivoted almost entirely to home. Work pivoted to home. Social activities to home, everything resorted to home, and as a result. Anything that was consumed in the home just saw demand skyrocket just off the charts demand. And so you had companies that were facing shutdowns, slowdowns, suddenly trying to figure out how they were going to accommodate demand that they had never witnessed before the rebound that everyone was talking about. And so it was. That's really the impetus of where the pandemic caused problems is that we shut down capacities. The steamship lines took ships off the water, they put them in dry dock. They figured that they would have a chance to repair some, some older ships, maybe even sell those ships. And so it takes a lot of time to bring that capacity back online. And frankly, where we are now is that, you know, consumer spending is 20 percent higher now than it was pre-pandemic. And meanwhile, the capacity is not quite where it was pre-pandemic. And so we just have supply and demand that are just running crossroads with one another.

MG: So you see these images of container ships that are parked offshore, California and other areas. I mean, what's on those ships and when the stuff that's in those containers can't be moved around, what's the effect of that?

THOMAS GODLSBY: Well, virtually everything imaginable is on those ships. So anything that's not sourced right here in North America is coming in from it could be European sources coming into the North American eastern coast. It could be- what we're seeing for the most part are those 87 or so ships parked off the coast of Long Beach, California, that's drawing so much attention right now and inside each one of those containers, you're going to find the good that Curtis, Kristi and Barbara are trying to get their hands on. Yes, there be appliances, books, clothing items. Everything imaginable and each one of those containers is but one little block. I mean, these ships can hold up to 20000 of those containers per ship. And that's led some companies to say, Hey, I don't want to go through that Port of Long Beach. I'm going to try to navigate around it. And the big companies like Canadian Tire, Wal-Mart, Amazon, those folks can try to navigate around it using their own chartered ships, going into smaller ports that have less congestion.

MG: So this is not about, you know, scarcity of goods, it's that the goods aren't in the right place at the right time.

THOMAS GODLSBY: It does have a little bit to do with scarcity, because keep in mind, the pandemic is still raging in various parts of the world. We're consuming at an unprecedented rate here, but supply is a little bit tempered because we have some production lines that are shut down. Some shipping ports in Asia have been shut down in recent months, and so that has been a bottleneck on the export side of those long transit. But it's also a function of just having the limited capacity here in North America as well.

MG: Kristi was talking about, you know, telling her customers to act now, buy things now because they may not be here in a couple of months time and want to do your Christmas shopping. Do you think we're going to see a shortage of products on on a wide scale?

THOMAS GODLSBY: I do. If you're looking for something very specific. And so for those readers of Owl's Nest Books, Christie's customers, it might take a while for that specific title to become available. But if you have an appetite for reading, I think there's a host of other books in Kristi's shop, maybe an opportunity to introduce yourself to a new passion or hobby. And so I think the messages that we're just going to have to be a little bit more flexible and frankly, that's something that the North American consumer has not been asked to do for quite some time.

MG: What do you mean? I mean, are we going to need to get used to? We kind of live in a society in certainly urban areas, but elsewhere as well. Almost instant access. You can order something and then it arrives the same day or the next day in many communities. Are we going to need to to rethink that?

THOMAS GODLSBY: I do believe that we've become diabolical. I think we've all become a little monsters. And frankly, Amazon has helped to feed the beast within all of us that you can find this limitless assortment that's available in one to two days. And I do think that we're going to be asked to be a little more accommodating, flexible and, you know, seeing those signs outside the store fronts that say, Hey. Be patient. Global supply chain issues, it's amazing how much those are resonating with the everyday shopper these days, and it does ask that maybe we go back to a bygone era where an item wasn't available, but in order to check that item off the list, we go with a competitive brand or substitute item. And so it's not something we're accustomed to doing, but I think that as we go through this holiday season and perhaps even into 2022, we're all going to have to be making those choices, maybe right there online or in the shopping mall.

MG: What about just in the last couple of minutes that we have investing in a domestic supply chain? There's that whole idea of reshoring where you're not offshoring things, you're making them here so that you don't need to send them halfway around the world or wait for them to arrive from the other side of the planet. What's preventing that?

THOMAS GODLSBY: Well, on the surface, reshoring makes a lot of sense, people wonder why when we could once produce these products, why we can no longer do so, it's it's really a multitude of of reasons. One. There is still a very significant cost of doing business difference between Asia and North America. Also, we're lacking the labour. Think about, you know, if we were to ask your friends in retail, if they did have all the merchandise that customers are looking for, would they have difficulty staffing their stores to accommodate? And the same is being said of manufacturing. You know, we are lacking ready supplies of labour in Canada and the United States to staff distribution.

MG: Can you boil that down to what we're willing to pay? Can you boil that down to what we're willing to pay? That perhaps you could have more people working? Perhaps you could do that manufacturing here, but it's going to cost us more on the back end when we buy those products.

THOMAS GODLSBY: You're absolutely right. Price is the final mechanism in the equation. And you know, the manufacturers and retailers would say that the consumers aren't willing to pay it and it will put them at a competitive disadvantage. It's something that if it was instituted on a broader scale, you know, frankly, I think that many manufacturers could afford it. They've had very healthy bottom lines, but it's it's very hard to break through. We do see the likes of Amazon paying a premium for distribution labour. And, you know, when they talk about scaling up by adding 100000 jobs to prepare for the holidays, they somehow are able to do that because they do pay a higher wage and full benefits.

MG: Just in the last few seconds that we have. How long is this going to last, do you think?

THOMAS GODLSBY: I've been joking to my colleagues. Mark your calendar, March 15, 2022. Now I'm not going to. I'm not going to go out on a limb to offer a specific date, but I do think that in spring things will settle down. I think we're going to see demand returning back to normal. Hopefully, the pandemic will be further down the road. People resume their normal lives a little bit. And frankly start spending money in other ways, travelling as opposed to relying on goods that they're consuming at home. So I think spring 2022 is when things will start to resume to normal, and you all won't be calling me up for interviews quite as much, which I [unitelligible]. I'll miss that.

MG: Well, I'm glad you took our call this morning, Thomas. Thank you very much. Thank you, Matt. Thomas Goldsby is a professor of logistics at the Haslam College of Business at the University of Tennessee. Knoxville and co-faculty director for its Global Supply Chain Institute. A lot of people run small businesses across this country, of course. Are you caught up in the supply chain snafu? You can let us know. Email us thecurrent@cbc.ca. Your regional update is next. And then.

SOUNDCLIP

For black folks, the fear is being trouble of being an instigator, bringing up something that might be invisible to other people that I was concerned about entering that space of being misunderstood.

MG: Ian Williams put his fears aside to write his new book. It's called Disorientation Being Black in the World. He'll be here to tell me why he dropped another project to bring this one into being. That's coming up in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

Marching in the streets isn't the only way to challenge racism, author says

Guest: Ian Williams

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

Maybe this is what pro athletes feel like. They were like tennis players when they win Wimbledon or the U.S. Open, but like, we don't write books for this moment here, and then it happens and you're totally off guard as a human. Incredibly special. And all of your history just kind of like rushes back to you. I mean, imagine myself as a boy in Brampton. I imagine myself as a boy, [unintelligible]. And just like, yeah, there's a lot of history that goes into sort of standing right here.

MG: That's the author Ian Williams speaking just after he won the 2019 Giller prise for his debut novel Reproduction. Part of that history that he was speaking about involves moving through the world as a black man, encountering systems of whiteness and racism and figuring out how to talk about all of that. These are the themes he explores in his new book of essays. It's called Disorientation: Being Black in the World. Ian Williams, good Morning.

IAN WILLIAMS: Hi. Good morning, Matt.

MG: It's great to have you here.

IAN WILLIAMS: Thanks.

MG: You say in this book that you think about race every day, but you rarely externalise those thoughts until now. Tell me more about that. I mean, what were you reluctant of in terms of speaking openly about race, in a way that you do in this book?

Speaker 3: Yeah. So I think mostly we think that the fear of talk about race is for white people, right, who face some very serious repercussions for saying the wrong thing, having the wrong positions that if they're public figures, that can easily be cancelled. But I think the fear is different for everybody but still present. And for black folks, the fear is being trouble of being instigator, of bringing up something that might be invisible to other people, of making a big deal over things that people are saying are just part of life. And so there are different kinds of fears that I was sort of concerned about entering that space of being misunderstood.

MG: What are the expectations, do you think, of black people like yourself? I mean, when there is an uprising like we saw after the murder of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor, and you could add names to that list. What are the expectations of people like you?

Speaker 3: Well, there are a couple, right? On one hand, there's the expectation a to be good and to be good often means like not to disturb or not to agitate or not to rock the boat. And the other expectation be would be something like the complete opposite, right to be extremely vocal, to be outraged, to be militant. And those two things are held in kind of opposition as if they can't coexist together. But what if it to be good is in fact to be morally disturbed? Cannot rage by these things and to find the right opportunity to speak about them and also to be considerate of the people listening so that my anger isn't just sprayed like a garden hose, but my anger actually finds the right target and the right moment to be articulated. So yeah, I mean, there are different ways to be as a public person or as a private person in those situations, right to be good or to be righteous. I think there's a difference between those two.

MG: So you are very much a public person. Did you feel the expectation was to be righteous? I mean, in the book you say I care about race, but I don't march in the streets with homemade signs. Do people expect you to do that?

IAN WILLIAMS: I think to some degree, yes, yes. And I think that people who do it better than me and part of the part of the book is that there are other ways of engaging the subjects of race apart from the visible public way, right, that we see. And I think there are people who do it really brilliantly right and should be commended, and we need those people to march in the streets and to be at the forefront of it. But then there are other people who, by force of personality or temperamental or whatever, take a different kind of approach to this, which is a little bit more private Bob Dylan than a concert hall, right? And more to these one on one conversations. I feel like those folks should feel like they're not doing important work just because that work isn't super visible.

MG: You used a really interesting word a moment ago, which is that people in some ways need to be considered as well of who the audience is. Tell me more about that and why you would use that word in talking about how to talk about race, if I can put it like that.

IAN WILLIAMS: Yeah, it's so easy to focus on expressing right what I feel and what I think the focus is on getting the feeling out of me. But that can fall on deaf ears if there's no awareness of the person that I'm speaking to. And I actually think like compassion as a as a ruling virtue is actually a good one. Compassion means that even in my outrage, I am still able to bear in mind the feelings of the other person and to do- and not to do unnecessary damage. I was going to say not to do no damage, but sometimes damage needs to be done for good work and repair, but do no unnecessary damage, even as I'm speaking about things that outrage and hurt me. I think there are lots of people like white people who have difficulty with the subject and won't even approach the subject because they're expecting hostility from people of colour. And our anger is not necessarily directed to that particular person that we're speaking to, right? It's directed towards a system that they may have complicit participation in, but it's not because of that individual person and sort of always hold those things right in the air during a conversation. All these social relations are complex, and we have to like not lose the nuance of it.

MG: And so given all of that, why did you decide to write this book now?

IAN WILLIAMS: It was late last year we had the justice movements happening. The pandemic was taking hold here in North America. And you know, I was in D.C. at the time. There were wildfires happening, and I had this sense that, you know what, with the last book you write and be, if the world really did, if climate change really did sort of collapse and kill us at that moment, I was working on a novel called Disappointment. Maybe that should not be the last book that I ever write. What do you need to to say it to address?

MG: Well, tell me about the title. What does that? Were disorientation mean to when you are speaking about race from your perspective?

IAN WILLIAMS: So disorientation, I think of as the response that people of colour have to random and unprovoked reminders of our race. So I'll give you an example here. I buy a on Kijiji. I've been messaging with this person back and forth for a while. We set a time. I go to pick up the lamp and when I show up at this fellow's door, he's like, stunned or surprised or like he has this intake of breath, right? And in that moment, I'm aware that all the while we were messaging, he thought I was not black. Right? And how do you prove that? Right? The shock on his face to look up face? I recognise that. I know that they hear the voice, they see the writing and they think it's a different body that this comes from. And in that little recognition, I am reminded of my race, right? I am reminded that this is not a transaction about a lamp, simply, but suddenly, maybe safety has come into play, or maybe other things have come into play just by virtue of my race. And so that kind of reminder that sense of 'have I done something wrong simply by being me?' That has taken me out of a simple transaction about a lamp and becomes something altogether different? And the other part of it is the recovery from those kinds of moments. So after I have that, all of the considerations that I have, such as should I have done something differently, should I have written differently, should have alerted checks? What else could I have prepared for in that moment? And that of recovery gets exhausting. Disorientation and the rebalancing?

MG: How did your awareness, if I can put it that way of race change when your family moved from Trinidad to Canada?

IAN WILLIAMS: So in Trinidad, most people on the island are black or Indian or mixed race and we know about whiteness. But our direct encounters are, you know, not so every day as they are over here. So I move as a little boy. My life had been going along pretty swimmingly. Well, well-adjusted your friends or your friends, you speak the way you speak and then to move over here. I now have an accent and I belong to a minority group, and this minority group comes with conditions that I try to figure out as a nine year old boy. I'd give the story of being told in Grade four how to spell the word journal. The teacher says to write the word journal on my exercise book, and she tells a white boy my age to spell the word for me. And in that moment, I know how to spell the word journal. But the assumption there is that this kid from the island doesn't know how to spell, this white boy knows how to spell. And he in fact misspell the word I copied the misspelling of the word because I trusted in some kind of unspoken authority of whiteness, right, even at nine years old. Yeah, to this day, that mistake still kind of bothers me, right? Like you knew better, Ian. And yet you deferred to something that you barely understood.

MG: You grew up in Brampton, Ontario, just outside the city of Toronto. And you write that as a kid growing up in Brampton, you thought everyone non-white in Canada had to be from elsewhere. Why did you think that?

IAN WILLIAMS: Right? Partly patterned order on my family, right? But there came to be a pretty standard neutrality early on. That neutrality, that baseline of the Bay and Zellers in the people who worked all around was white and white folks before with such kind of ownership and confidence in authority through their spaces that they seemed to own it. And we know better now, right? We know there are indigenous peoples in Canada before the existence of Canada, right? We know better. But at that time, the ownership and the power seemed to be held by by white folks.

MG: You talk about whiteness as an institution. What do you mean by that?

IAN WILLIAMS: Yeah. So I try to make this distinction between whiteness and white people whiteness as a kind of system and white people, but by whiteness, as an institution, I mean, this is the kind of system that we're trapped in, the kind of system that controls everything from how housing prices work here to my interactions at the fresh go. So there are 10 bullets that identify their first one. It's like whiteness exists. Let's call it. Let's admit it. Let's recognise it.

MG: Is that still controversial in 2021?

IAN WILLIAMS: Yeah, it less so now, right? And I think in the last five years or so, right, we can kind of say that yes, whiteness is a thing and it's not humanity, it is whiteness. There's a separation between those two things. But yeah, I think most a lot of white people are still living their lives as if whiteness is simply being human, right? They don't need to interrogate their white, their whiteness.

MG: That's one of the other bullet points is is whiteness takes offence.

IAN WILLIAMS: All right. By naming its existence right to say to someone that. You know, you are white is to introduce kind of race into the conversation that's constantly being downloaded on people of colour, and it's offensive because it's aligned with a historically abusive system. Right. And white folks, I think, want to separate themselves from whiteness when it's identified. But yeah, you are part of that thing, right? And so what is your relationship to that thing? You don't have to support it necessarily, but you do have to sort of figure out your relationship to it.

MG: What would change if white people were to stop taking offence, as you say, and acknowledge the existence of whiteness, but also the impact of whiteness on other people?

IAN WILLIAMS: That would require some real self reflection, like some real introspection there. But it would mean that they would bring to these conversations a kind of sophistication and a kind of like pre-work that black people have been doing. You know, just just because we had to write, what if white people sort of did their digging and did their work and said, Yeah, here are the advantages I've had, and I'm aware of how easy I have this versus how this black woman does not have it easy and they can have those conversations, not just with people of colour, but amongst themselves.

MG: Where are we at, do you think, in those conversations in Canada? You talk about a moral superiority that many Canadians have over Americans, a kind of Canadian innocence that we have long, you know, embraced? Where is that at now, do you think?

IAN WILLIAMS: You know, I think sort of at the forefront of this movement towards racial awareness and reckoning with the past are a lot of indigenous people and leaders, asking Canada, White Canada to sort of be reflective. And so I think we are moving along, but we're not moving through sort of a black white dynamic anymore. It's much broader than that. I think the moral superiority, I think that is crumbled. And certainly over the last the past summer, with the discovery of the bodies and the indigenous children, the bodies, we just can't afford to be right. That's a delusion that we don't have the luxury of holding anymore. So I think that is crumbling. I'd like to see what happens in the next two or three years, Matt, because I think we are poised to take big steps forward and to figure out what it means to sort of break with the past and acknowledge the past and move forward.

MG: That's going to require big change. I mean, systemic change. And it's not, you know, just in real estate in terms of who lives in a neighbourhood. But I think of the work that you do as a professor when you are, as you say, perhaps the only black professor that many of your students will have that have had over the course of their education. What's the I mean, it sounds obvious in some ways, but what's the effect of that, do you think?

IAN WILLIAMS: Hmm. Well, there's definitely sort of this sense of being very conspicuous in their experience, right? And you know, students are not always kind of reviews and things. You know, I've had racialized colleagues who've had comments about their accent or comments about, you know, their appearance made on course evaluations the way that other folks don't get. So [unintelligible] asked this question, actually, the indigenous writer, about is every performance, an educational space? And I'm thinking even within an English lit class or a creative writing classroom is my responsibility to bring a kind of social education to students, it is an aesthetic appreciation no longer sufficient? And I would say, Yeah, that's right. Like, we need to do a little bit more. But that responsibility is not entirely mine.

MG: But ultimately, that's a lot on you. And I mean, you talk about this is a familiar idea, the idea of being the only one in the room, but with the only one in the room comes the look. What is the look?

IAN WILLIAMS: Oh, so the look is, yeah, the look signals, what are you doing here? The look signals that you're making us a little bit uncomfortable or look signals self-congratulation. You know at having you here.

MG: Self-congratulation. What do you mean?

IAN WILLIAMS: Well, the white person who can now see black people in the room and feel somehow responsible for having having be there for hate, that they have done something by inviting me into this space. And we see it too with indigenous folks, right? We give indigenous folks a moment at the beginning of a celebration. And there's that kind of pat self-congratulation that now we are, we are woke and it's it's not enough. One person doesn't sort of over turn the tide of historical underrepresentation,. But you know, that look also comes Dubois talks about like, you know, double consciousness and look sort of shaping how you even see yourself. And so when you're constantly being reflected back as this kind of specimen, right, this kind of exceptional being it, it messes with you. Right? But it's sort of in an everyday language. It really does kind of do a number on your brain.

MG: One of the things that you try to do is do a number on the brain of your students by telling them to go to a place that makes them feel uncomfortable to give them the sense of what that is like. Give me an example of that and you're hoping that they would take the right.

IAN WILLIAMS: So students are, you know, they're born in the cities. I tell them, go out into the wild, into the wilderness, go off path and see, confront that fear right of being uncomfortable in a place. If you come from poverty, go into the most expensive store that you find and look around and stand and see how that feels. And to really just kind of embrace that sense of discomfort, not to run away from it. If you come from money, I say go to poor neighbourhoods in Vancouver not to sort of, you know, gawk at all of that right, but to just kind of sit with what it must be like to occupy those spaces and how you are being reflected back. It's one of these exercises to develop empathy and to develop courage as well. And they do come back sort of more reflective after that.

MG: What do they reflect on? I mean, do you say, you know, don't run away, don't flee. But for other people in that situation, they would write, If you are the only person in the room and you're made to feel uncomfortable, chances are you're going to want to get out of the door.

IAN WILLIAMS: So if a white student goes into a black area or goes into a poor area and are suddenly hyper conscious of how visible they are in that space, then that could easily be sort of transferred over to, Hmm. Is this what my black friend has felt all throughout our white high school experience, right? We know it's not easy to be the only person. But then when you're actually in that situation yourself, the knowledge of it is deeper, right?

MG: And does that help? I mean, in the larger picture of what we've been talking about, does that help and change society?

IAN WILLIAMS: Yeah, I think so. I think it's I believe like an intellectual muscle development, right? You know, and emotional muscle development. I think it helps us become less empathetic and courageous and sensitive as well. Yeah, it's one thing to talk and to read all the books and to have the terms and the lingo and all of that down. And it's another thing from the heart and from the gut to be able to appreciate someone's difficulty passing through the world. And if I can sort of create contrived circumstances where people experience that discomfort, then maybe that sensitivity will blossom into other kinds of forms of action and activism.

MG: I want to play something for you. This is a piece of music that I think you're going to recognise. Take a listen to this.

SOUNDCLIP

[Song]

MG: Yes, sir. DJ Honey Dijon and her remix of I Wish by Stevie Wonder, tell me about the period in your life when you were listening to that.

IAN WILLIAMS: I'm so glad you felt that. I hope you will. I don't know what you listened to that I really, I don't know.

MG: But music like that?

IAN WILLIAMS: Oh, just that's like black joy, right? Like, we talk so much about the suffering and pain, but that's pure joy. So that's due to the pandemic time I was preparing to move, locked in the house, listening to a lot of deejays and house music, and the repetition of it just felt like appropriate during the pandemic days. You know, hard days felt so blurry. And yeah, I was listening to endless health music while I was writing disorientation.

MG: Can I ask you just I mean, there's a larger story about waiting for furniture as well, but you mentioned black joy. I mean, we're talking about pain and suffering and being uncomfortable and being isolated. How important is joy to you?

IAN WILLIAMS: Yeah. You know, so joy for me is like different from sort of fun, right? I really fun is. Oh, OK, can I say I don't want to have fun write like I? I don't enjoy the things that most people consider to be fun, right? But there's something deeper about joy. There's if we can sort of get through people's pain and get through their suffering and get to something more essential. I think there's joy in that. It's not kind of an L.O.L or a ha ha ha, but it's a kind of grounded attitude or approach to the world, and that all those Stevie Wonder kinds of exclamations that that joy, there.. He's talking about sort of how rough it is growing up. But looking back, there's joy in sort of the reflection of that. Yeah

MG: You're also listening to it when you were waiting for your furniture to be delivered. And in the midst of all of this, Margaret Atwood offers to send you an onion. How did one of your literary heroes get involved in this story?

IAN WILLIAMS: That was cool. Well, read there, Matt. No, we were doing an event for a festival and we were in the green room chatting and she heard this story. Or I was just sort of why is there nothing in your background? And she's observant and caring and compassionate, very deeply so. She was just trying to alleviate by suffering. The thing about her that is really just incredible is that, you know, I talk, I write, I feel like sort of internalise. I keep things quiet if they bother me and whatnot. But Atwood is one of these people who through and through are interested in change, right? And changing things. She will express and she will write. But if there's something within her power to do, to fix it, she will do it and not just griped about it. And so, yeah, she offered to call the moving company and, you know, threaten them with her best Margaret Atwood impression of herself.

MG: This is a moving company that I mean, you've been waiting for like weeks and weeks and weeks for your things to arrive,

IAN WILLIAMS: and there was just no end in sight and I was just exercising good behaviour and patience and all of that. But at some point, you know, indignation is is the right response, right? And she felt that instantly. Injustice seems to prick her.

MG: Having started this conversation, talking about your reluctance in some ways to weigh in in this way on race. I mean, do you feel like a weight has been lifted in having written a book like this? What do you want this to do? You were talking about shelving a novel and worrying that that would be the last thing that that, you know, people might read now that this is out. What do you hope this adds to the conversation?

IAN WILLIAMS: Yeah, I'm thinking about the idea of a weight freed, like, has a weight been lifted from me? I think my brain is better organised now, right? I don't know if I feel any lighter, but I feel more transparent. To shift terms, I feel like I have not obscured the things that have impacted me, influence me and troubled me over my time. And that kind of transparency makes it easier for me to look out into the world to my benefit is I'm able to see the world more clearly now by clearing that window between me and the outside.

MG: What do you mean?

IAN WILLIAMS: So. Yeah, I mean that transparency of disclosure, for instance, about so I think what? I don't talk about race, I'm in fact neglecting something really important and central to my identity. And that was kind of a protective thing. A kind of shield. And by putting down that shield, my vision is in fact broader and more enlarged right now. And yes, people can see my vulnerabilities and can target me. If they're so mean spirited and so inclined, they can do that. But also, I have a better view of the landscape too, so I can protect myself not to like defensive apparatus, but through good and long distance vision, write a range of vision and that's what the book has has allowed me to do.

MG: I'm really glad that you wrote this book. I mean, I'm sure it's not easy in some ways, but it's really important. And it's funny at times as well and really sharp. So thank you very much.

IAN WILLIAMS: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Ian Williams is a Giller prise winning author and professor of English at the University of Toronto, and his latest book of essays is called Disorientation: Being Black in the World. That's the current for this Wednesday. Coming up next on CBC Radio One, it's Q. Tom Power will be speaking with the legendary author and playwright Thompson Highway about a new memoir called Permanent Astonishment. Just a few minutes ago, we heard Ian Williams talk about black joy and the joy that he found in house music and his love, in particular of the fabulous DJ Honey Dijon. If you are not familiar with her, here's a bit more to get you started. Something nice for your Wednesday morning. This is Downtown by DJ Honey Dejan Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. I'll see you tomorrow.

SOUNDCLIP

[Song]

Wednesday October 13, 2021 Full Transcript

Social Sharing

More from this episode