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The Current Transcript for October 26, 2018

Host: David Common

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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Six go four three two one zero and liftoff of Space Shuttle Endeavour.

DAVID COMMON: Canadian astronaut Dave Williams was on that shuttle as it blasted off. To end of week for us that seen some heavy news, we're going to hear something inspiring from a man who has been to space, who's lived at the bottom of the ocean, been and ER doctor and frankly done just about everything. An incredible life that's coming right up. And then:.

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Allah akbar. Allah akbar.

DC: A pilgrim at the Hajj praising Allah as he throws pebbles one of the rights of the pilgrimage. In the wake of the Khashoggi killing some Muslims are debating whether to go to their holy sites in Saudi Arabia this year. It is a debate filled with controversy, in half an hour. After that:

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Representation matters because Role Models define what's possible. The outdoor industry is slowly waking up but there's a long way to go.

DC: Now that's Judith Kassama calling out Mountain Equipment Co-op for its lack of diversity. She did not see people of color like her in their ads. And MEC, well they agree. They say they need to open up to a big customer base. What they're doing and the reception to their actions, that's up in an hour. I'm David Common and this is the Friday edition of The Current.

Canadian astronaut Dave Williams shares life lessons from outer space

Guest: Dave Williams

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VOICE 1: Capsule is ready. The Commander Alan Shepard, our astraunaut is ready.

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VOICE 2: They started.

VOICE 3: Freedom Seven is [unintelligible].

VOICE 4: The world can have no doubt but we did it and the man who did it was Alan Shepard Junior. History was made today, and you were an eye witness. Your correspondent Walter Cronkite.

DC: The Freedom 7 rocket launch on May 5th, 1961 turned Alan Shepard into the United States's first astronaut. Weeks earlier, the Soviet Union had sent its own cosmonaut Yuri Gagarin into orbit. Space travel was suddenly possible and the world was transfixed. Dave Williams was just shy of his seventh birthday when he gathered with his family to watch that Freedom 7 launch. On a grainy black and white TV in his Montreal living room. And just as the historic flight helped change the trajectory of human accomplishment it also changed the trajectory of Dave Williams life. Today he's Dr. Dave Williams a retired astronaut, after two trips to space an aquanaut, after having lived on the ocean floor, an emergency room doctor, a hospital chief executive, a pilot, skydiver, scuba diver. The list is long. We don't have time to go through it all. He even holds the Canadian record for the longest time spent space walking. Dr. Williams has a new book, Defying Limits, which charts his journey from awestruck child to awe inspiring astronaut. And he joins us in our Toronto studio. Hello.

DAVE WILLIAMS: Good morning.

DC: So you've been to the heights of space, the depths of the ocean, you've jumped out of planes, you saved lives as a doctor. You don't like being bored. Do you?

DAVE WILLIAMS: No. It's kind of I've had an exciting career. And you know listening to that excerpt from Walter Cronkite. It takes her right back, takes you back to the magic in the dream of becoming an astronaut. It's absolutely incredible.

DC: I mean you say that you're there you are watching grainy black and white TV. You're almost 7. What was it? What was that the moment where you said 'bing' in your mind?

DAVE WILLIAMS: That was the beginning of a dream watching Alan Shepard go into space I thought that's what I want to do. And of course it was around the time where space exploration was the realm of science fiction. Back in the days of Lost in Space. But at that time it was something totally new, totally exciting.

DC: There you are watching with your mother and your father, your dad's a bank manager, your mother's a nurse. What did they do to cultivate this sort of early fascination in space travel that you had?

DAVE WILLIAMS: I think they encouraged me to pursue my dreams even though those dreams seemed to be impossible. You know when I shared with others that I wanted to be an astronaut the first thing I was told was that's impossible, because Canada did not have a human spaceflight program at that time.

DC: Before we get to the point at which Canada does have astronauts, you decide you want to become a doctor. But you don't have a. Easy path to that. There's quite a bit of adversity and some failure along the way.

DAVE WILLIAMS: There's no question hence the name for the book Defying limits. You know I've had to work through a number of tough situations and experienced adversity in the course of my career. But I dreamt of becoming an astronaut. Then I thought well if I can't do that and I'm going to be an aquanaut, live and work underwater. And when I started scuba diving I developed this passion for physiology, how the body worked, that led me to going on into medical school. But the first time I applied I didn't get in. I had to work much harder, get better marks and I was very fortunate to be accepted the second time I applied.

DC: And you tried for a Ph.D. as well and went and they said not good enough.

DAVE WILLIAMS: Yes I was actually in a Ph.D. program. You start off year one year in a Ph.D. stream and then after the first year you have to do a comprehensive oral presentation on your research. And I did that and they said, no, we're not interested you should just finish off a master's and then go off and do what you want to do. And that was very tough for me because I had been working very hard at that point in time. I was really hoping that I would be able to go on and do a Ph.D. in neuroscience. Fortunately the way it worked out I finished my research, got three papers published and was on the dean's honor list when they gave me my degree. But at that time it was a very tough flow.

DC: And with the benefit of time we think of this. But it's funny hearing someone talk about the fallback plan being medicine. But along the way, as you describe in the book, there were some tough moments and tough even financial moments. You're studying. You go home to see your parents. You don't even have the money to leave.

DAVE WILLIAMS: You know as a student I experience a lot of financial challenges. And my parents really tried hard to get as much money as they could to support her education for my sister and I. But things were tough. In the 1970s it was a different era. And so I was working and my first apartment was 60 dollars a month that I was paying for an apartment just north of Sherbrooke Street in Montreal. To get to it, you had to go down one alleyway, turn left into another alleyway, go halfway down, turn into a third alleyway and there was my door and that's what you got for 60 bucks a month. But you know from there I had to work really hard because I was challenged to say is this going to be my life. And I wanted to do more than just simply be in a situation like that. So I worked very very hard, got into graduate school, was always hoping to become a doctor. But as you pointed out I had some challenges on the way.

DC: You sort of write in the book that failures even the small ones are more instructive than success.

DAVE WILLIAMS: I wrote a series of books for children and the second one is called Go for Liftoff. In there is share with children, it's what you do when you don't succeed that determines whether you will succeed. And when I failed the first time in my life and I was contemplating the various things that might happen, I thought you know what, now I've got to make a decision. Now I have to decide to commit myself to work really really hard to be able to achieve my dream. And up until that time I thought it was working hard but it was working at too many diverse things. So it's what I chose to do in that moment where it was really tough that really determine whether I was ultimately going to go on be able to succeed.

DC: Before we get to you getting into space I want to talk about your wife getting into the sky, because she is a commercial airline pilot and became so at a time that very very few women were doing that. She's very accomplished in her own right. It was tagging along with her that helped inspire you. Can you tell us a bit about that?

DAVE WILLIAMS: So in 1979, I actually met Kathy in 1978, but we started going out in 1979. And I had applied to medical school and was accepted into medical school. She had expressed an interest in flying and was just starting her private pilot's license. And then ultimately how it transpired that I got a chance to go into space was based on being in a meeting of female pilots down in Florida where I met Linda Godwin, an American astronaut, that told me the Canadian space program is going to be hiring. So I got my application in and the rest is history.

DC: What made you think you stood a chance?

DAVE WILLIAMS: You know it's a great question. I think one of the things that astronauts represent is a lifetime love of learning. And I had demonstrated that by virtue of my interest in underwater diving and diving, medicine, physiology, research, clinical practice, emergency medicine trauma. I had done skydiving and then by the time we got to around 1991 I'd already finished my private pilot's license. So I had quite a diverse background. I think that's what they were looking for to hire these astronauts would go on and build the International Space Station.

DC: And how many people applied?

DAVE WILLIAMS: Oh I think there were 5330. But don't be too impressed because 600 of those applicants came from kids less than 10 years of age.

DC: Those are still pretty tough odds though and I'm wondering, because you go through these various stages, various interviews, you go through the medical, you go through everything else. What was the point at which- someone phoned you?

DAVE WILLIAMS: Yes at the end. They did. I was actually teaching a course in advanced cardiac life support at Sunnybrook and my pager went off and I knew that it was going to be the space agency. But the space agency said they were going to call us around noon and it was like 1:30 or something like that. So I thought I am on the rejection letter. So I went and I took the call and picked up the phone and it was Arlene Marshall from the CSA. And she said 'Oh congratulations'. Congratulations. You're kidding. You mean I'm accepted? She says of course you are excepted. We're so excited to have you on this. Well it's 130 I thought I was rejected and you'd call the successful people right away. And she said Well it turns out a lot of people were calling us. So we got busy and chatting with other people so it was 1:30 before we were able to call again.

DC: You go on to astronaut training very quickly after that. And you end up in something called the vomit comet. What is that? Cause I've always known it in the city we're now in in Toronto as the Young Street bus that hurtles down in the middle of the night. That's the vomit comet. You had a slightly more professional version of that.

DAVE WILLIAMS: It's a little bit different than the young street bus. It's an airplane essentially a Boeing 707 or a KC 135 is a military designation and it flies what looks like a roller coaster in the air. So they pull the nose of the airplane 45 degrees, nose up. And you climb from 20,000 feet up to 30,000 feet, pitch back in the airplane is pretty dramatic. And then they push the nose of the airplane forward and it literally falls out of the sky, 10,000 feet. And in that 30 second time period you experience, you don't experience the force of gravity anymore. You're floating around freely and it's just like being in space.

DC: Where's the dividing line between fun and horror in something like that?

DAVE WILLIAMS: I love stuff like that. It's a lot of fun being able to do it.

DC: You're roller coaster roller guy.

DAVE WILLIAMS: I am a roller coaster kind of guy. And in fact my wife and I used to go to Canada's Wonderland before we had kids and line up to go on the roller coaster. People be looking on it's like, why are you guys here? Don't you have kids here with you? But it's a lot of fun doing those things.

DC: You talk about your kids. Your first child, Evan, very soon after he was born he was identified as having Down's syndrome. How did you take that news?

DAVE WILLIAMS: So initially it was tough because you have all these ideas about what's going to happen in the future. And then you realize that you know what it is what it is. And Evan has grown up to be a remarkable kid. And in fact I learned many lessons from Evan about patience, perseverance and just having fun with life and things. But we're blessed to have three amazing kids Evan, Olivia and Theo and it's been a lot of fun.

DC: Your wife is a commercial airline pilot. You were an astronaut. How did you manage your career at such heights with the added stresses that you have raising a family?

DAVE WILLIAMS: You know it's always a challenge trying to find balance and my goal as an astronaut was to be able to succeed in my career but also to be successful as a spouse and to be a successful father to our kids. And it requires a lot of commitment. So when I wasn't training I would be at home with the kids and often Kathy would be flying. So I'd be there with the kids. And then when Kathy was back from flying I'd be training in the simulators and things. So it is always a back and forth but between the two of us we were totally committed to our family as much as we were to our individual careers.

DC: When you talk about your careers you undertake your astronaut training. You get assigned a mission right away. Walk me through that.

DAVE WILLIAMS: I had no idea this was going to happen. I started training in 1995, graduated in 1996 and within three weeks of graduation was asked to come in to the office. And I thought, Oh my goodness, what have I done wrong? I got called at the office. So I go into the office and Bob Cabana asked me to sit down and said, Dave, I just want to say congratulations. We've assigned to neuro lab. In retrospect it would have been pretty easy to figure that out. I have a postgraduate degree in neuroscience. This is a mission dedicated to neuroscience research in space. So it was an obvious fit. And neuro lab was scheduled to fly in 1998. So being assigned in 1996 gave us that two year window that we needed to train on all the complex experiments.

DC: You go through liftoff there. I've been to Cape Canaveral once when a shuttle was going off. And I was 10 kilometres back and I felt like I was on a ride because the earth is shaking as the shuttle goes off. You were a lot closer. What's that like?

DAVE WILLIAMS: It's pretty dramatic. You know you climb onto the vehicle. You get strapped in for hours ahead of time. You go through the prelaunch checklist. The last thing on your checklist occurs at T minus two minutes. You close the visor, turn the oxygen on and you have two minutes to think about things. I'm looking out the overhead window and this is absolutely beautiful blue day. I'm thinking what a fantastic day for our guests and then I had this huge reality check, that basically in 30 seconds I am going to have seven and a half million pounds of thrust, a controlled explosion ignite beneath me. And hopefully we're going to make it to space, but whatever happens we're going someplace really really fast. And then eight and a half minutes later I'm traveling twenty five times the speed of sound. It's eight kilometers a second. Kind of like traffic on the 400.

DC: Yes yes. What you don't have in your car driving down into downtown Toronto in the thick of traffic is weightlessness. Now you've had that experience and the vomit comet. But what is it like in space?

DAVE WILLIAMS: It's totally different in space compared to the Vomit Comet. In space, as soon as you arrive you're floating around. And you very quickly realize it's only fingertip forces that you need to move yourself from one location to another. The first 10 minutes that I was in space I was bouncing between the floor of the flight deck and the ceiling of the flight deck, back and forth until I realized that I just need to stop pushing and start floating. And then all of a sudden everything came together.

DC: How do you sleep at night? You have to seatbelt yourself and I guess.

DAVE WILLIAMS: Well there's two ways of the official ways you strap yourself into your sleep restraint system or your sleeping bag and it can be stuck in the system.

DC: Sleep restraint system, Geez that sounds alarming.

DAVE WILLIAMS: But it could be on the ceiling. It could be on the floor, on the wall, whatever way you want to position it. Or you can simply close your eyes and fall asleep while you're floating around. And your arms will float up in front of your face, your knees bend and things. And you float around and you might bounce off the wall, the ceiling or the floor or whatever but it's quite a relaxing sleep.

DC: Okay. So there you are first time for you as a human there and bunch of humans who are around you. But there are other animals that are with you as well. And how did they respond? Who were they and how did they respond?

DAVE WILLIAMS: With neural lab we had over 2000 living organisms with us. We had rats, adult rats, baby rats. We had mice. We had soared tail fish and oyster Toad fish. We had crickets with us, this whole menagerie in space. And basically all of these animals and insects and fish were there with us to try and understand how the nervous system of different species adapted to being in space. The rats were particularly interesting because they went up with us and came back with us and we would take them out of their cage and they would float around inside a special contained area called a general purpose workstation. But it was really interesting taking the rat out of the cage and climb up my left arm, jump off, float across to my right arm, run down my right arm, push off, jump off and go back to my left arm. They were having fun. They were playing and they learned as fast as we did as astronaut's to push off with her hind pausing grab on with their forepaws.

DC: So that was your first trip to space. But it wasn't your last. In 2007 you blasted off again and this time it was to help build the International Space Station. How did that second mission differ from the first?

DAVE WILLIAMS: It was like it was in space the week before, even though it was almost 10 years that had separated the two missions. Your body remembers. So when Endeavour arrived in space it was down on the mid deck. This time in charge of the medic, I hit the ground running quite literally, or metaphorically with my hands moving around, getting the mid deck arranged and turning this space shuttle from its launch configuration into its on orbit configuration. But we had four spacewalks to do of which I did three. And once we rendezvous and docked to the space station it was all hands on deck, getting the suits over in the airlock and Rick and I went through the depressurisation to go outside and do the first of in my case three spacewalks which is truly remarkable.

DC: And on that third one you know what was your last.

DAVE WILLIAMS: On the third one I suspected it was my last. You never really know for sure. Yeah but I remember being outside thinking well I'm 54 now and you know when I come back in after this mission will hang around and do another mission at age 58, 59, 60. Or is it better for me to retire and open the door for other Canadians to be able to go and do this experience. You know I had flown twice in space. I had done two underwater missions. I was part of senior management at NASA. I'd had a great career. So after the second flight I talked to Kathy about it and we decided it was best for me to retire come back to Canada. She would continue on flying and then I would transition back into the health care sector.

DC: Before I let you go is there one memory one moment that really captures the essence of outer space?

DAVE WILLIAMS: For me the single moment occurred during my second spacewalk. I was riding on the end of the Canadarm with the Canadian logo on the upper arm the lower arm, and of course I'm on the station arm but there's another Canadarm in the payload bay of the space shuttle. So there are Canadian robotic arms everywhere. There's no question that we're one of the major space faring nations. But I was looking at the Canadian flag on my shoulder. One of the proudest moments of my life as a Canadian. It was truly incredible. And then I'm heading down to the payload bay to get a gyroscope that we had to replace on the space station. And they see the earth this four and a half billion year old planet, upon which the entire history of the human species has taken place. There's no boundaries between countries. We're all in this together and you realize that this is the home of humanity, this beautiful blue oasis in space. And then I began to think about my life in the sense of cosmic time. And I thought well I'm just like a little speck of sand on this infinite beach of life, which actually seemed a little depressing, until I realized that the opportunity for all of us is not to leave a legacy. It's to a live legacy to live on a day to day basis and get the most that we can out of life and in so doing be able to lead a truly fulfilled life. Which goes back to a message that I learned when I was in medical school.

DC: Dave good to meet you.

DAVE WILLIAMS: Real pleasure being here today. Thanks so much for having me.

DC: Dave Williams is a retired Canadian astronaut who traveled to space twice. His new book is called Defying Limits: Lessons from the Edge of the Universe. You can pick it up as of this coming Tuesday. Dave Williams was in our Toronto studio. The CBC News is coming up next, and then: After the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi there are KOLs around the world for sanctions against Saudi Arabia and that includes coming from some devout Muslims who say the times come to boycott the sacred pilgrimage to Mecca known as Hajj. I'm David Common and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

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Some Muslims feel conflicted about going to Saudi Arabia for hajj after Khashoggi's death

Guests: Hreaa Hashmi, Yusuf Badat, Aymann Ismail

DC: Hello I'm David Common and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

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DC: Still to come if you flip through the catalog of such outdoor companies, as Mountain Equipment Co-op, you might think that only white people enjoy the great outdoors. This week MEC or M E C, depending on what you say, acknowledge that the issue exists and vowed to better reflect and encourage diversity outdoors. That story is coming up in half an hour. But first putting a holy journey on hold.

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My message to my fellow Muslims that we need to take an action. I know a lot of Muslims are angry and disappointed about what happened to Jamal Khashoggi and disappointed about what's happening in Yemen and disappointed about Saudi Arabia doing in the Arab world. And we can just quit complaining about without doing an action we willl not really make an effect.

DC: Mohammed Al Samawi is a Yemeni refugee, an author and activist who now lives in Miami Florida. And as you heard he's upset about the death of journalist Jamal Khashoggi at the Saudi consulate in Istanbul earlier this month. He is not alone. As Western governments contemplate sanctions against Saudi Arabia for the apparent brazen killing, Mohammed Al Samawi is one of a growing number of Muslims speaking out about the kind of action they might take. He's suggesting that Muslims consider forgoing the Hajj, the annual pilgrimage made to the holy city of Mecca, inside the Saudi kingdom.

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The biggest fear that we can do, from my perspective, to Saudi Arabia is boycott the Hajj. I know that Hajj is important in our religion. And I know that it's good for Muslims to go, but if we did it, even for one year, we don't go to Hajj, it will be a strong message to Al Saud about their policies.

DC: And therefore this past August nearly two and a half million Muslims went on Hajj. The journey is considered a pillar of the Muslim faith. So the notion of a boycott is as you might imagine controversial but Mohammed Al Samawi says he's thought this through.

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The biggest thing that Saudi Arabia did in our mind is that they made us think that we can't understand our religion except if we go to Saudi Arabia, except if we go to a mom who is affiliated with Saudi Arabia. God give us Quran and he gave us Hadith so we know exactly how we can practice our own religion without go seeking that [unintelligible] from Saudi Arabia.

DC: So that is activist and author Mohamed Al Samawi. His memoir about coming to America is called the Fox Hunt. Calls to boycott going on Hajj have generated a lot of discussion online lately, and it is a topic that has Muslims around the world talking. We're bringing together some of them today. Aymann Ishmael is a staff writer for Slate magazine. He joins us from New York City. Heraa Hashmi is a student at the University of Colorado and we've reached her in Boulder Colorado. And Yusuf Badat is an imam at the Islamic Foundation of Toronto. He is in Scarbrough Ontario this morning. Hello to all of you.

YUSUF BADAT: Good morning.

HERAA HASHMI: Good morning. How are you?

DC: I'm well and Heraa, maybe we can begin with you. What do you think about this call for Muslims to boycott going on Hajj even if it's just for one year?

HERAA HASHMI: My perspective is that, as a Muslim, my job is to complete what I deem to be the religious obligations and Hajj one of them, and the way I perceive Hajj is that it is a religious duty that is separate from the government of Saudi. It's unfortunate that it is in a country that has committed such atrocities. But God has that right upon me. And I don't think I should be foregoing a 'fard', or what is called an obligation, and that there are other ways that we can effectively hold the regime accountable without having to sacrifice what is an integral part of the faith.

DC: What's another way?

HERAA HASHMI: So I live in America and one thing would be, like with Khashoggi's murder and seeing kind of the pressure on the Saudi government, would be to start encouraging people to lobby their representatives in Congress to raise awareness about U.S. support of KSA in Yemen, protesting and things like that, things that go along with my faith because social justice is a huge part of being a Muslim, but it also doesn't affect the actions that I do have to take as a Muslim when it comes to prayer and fasting and going to the pilgrimage.

DC: Aymann Ismail, you've had a real struggle on this. Can you lay it out for us?

AYMANN ISMAIL: Yeah. Everything that Heraa's said is 100 percent true and correct. This is a little bit more complicated than just saying we shouldn't go and Hajj. You know Hajj is that important. This is something that's on the minds in the hearts of every Muslim. But my issue with it is I don't know if I'll feel comfortable in that country knowing that the money that I just handed over to pay for the visa, the money that I just paid for the hotel is going to be taxed and could possibly be used to buy weapons from the U.S. - or Germany or anywhere where they're going to buy the weapons from - to use against civilians. I'm happy that the focus has turned to Saudi Arabia after the atrocities. But really what they've done in Yemen is unforgivable and unjustifiable. And my heart breaks for them and I can't in good conscious support that offensive by giving my money to the government.

DC: You're speaking of course about Saudi Arabia's large scale military involvement that's been going on for quite some time in Yemen and a large number of people have died. As it relates to your decision about whether to go to Hajj this year, to go to Saudi Arabia to go on that pilgrimage, what have you decided?

AYMANN ISMAIL: I have about 10,000 dollars saved up so that I can go on Hajj. And right now I just don't know if I could give that money to the Saudi government in order for me to complete that obligation. I it is an obligation for me that's been religiously mandated for me, for all Muslims, and I do hope to go one day in my life. And it's just this moral ethical religious dilemma that I'm going through right now. I don't want to be that person who can't go on Hajj. I want to be. It's just really heartbreaking to know that I have to now calculate how I'm going to be participating in what I would consider to be a genocide of the Yemeni people.

DC: I mean [00:06:49] I can hear this, the conflict, the struggle in your own voice. When you talk to your family about the possibility of not going or not going this year or delaying. How do they react?

AYMANN ISMAIL: Yes. I spoke to my father about it before writing anything or taking any kind of stance. And the first thing he said to me was no you're thinking about this totally wrong. You are conflating two things that have no relationship to each other. One thing is a religious duty. And another thing is politics. And he's right. You know I definitely do believe that there's many sides of this that you can fall under. I think if any Muslim is convicted and believing that they can go and focus on their Hajj and complete the religious obligation and that they feel like they've been invited by God to go they should absolutely go. You know this isn't something to take lightly. But for me personally I feel as though I won't be able to focus my attentions won't be clear. I will be so haunted by the prospect of participating in what's happening in Yemen.

DC: Badat, I want to bring you into the conversation just to get your sense of this struggle that many Muslims are feeling now.

YUSUF BADAT: Well both issues are near and dear to every Muslim. The pilgrimage itself as well as you know the fight for social justice. I believe that Muslims can draw from the best of examples and that is the prophet of Islam Mohammed peace and blessings upon him himself. He was in a situation where he was faced with tyrant rulers and they were the ones who were controlling the city of Mecca and the places of pilgrimage. However, despite him being the greatest man of social justice he fulfilled his obligation to God to do the pilgrimage. However while that pilgrimage he spoke very vocally about the injustices that the rulers were engaged in doing. So I think Muslims can draw from this great example that yes we are uneasy. You know I go every year twice a year and every time I go I'm uneasy. There is a culture there. There's issues there that just bother me. However that's part of Hajj that things we don't like. We are engaging in sacrificing for the sake of God. So no one likes to leave their job. No one likes to spend 16000 Canadian dollars to go to pilgrimage. No one likes to leave their family for three weeks. However that's a sacrifice for the sake of God. We're going there. We're doing our job. We're trying to focus even though it might be difficult but we're doing God's work. So yes this struggle can also connect with optional pilgrimage. So from the technical point of view once in a lifetime if a person has the means and safe passage and the health, the funds to get there, then for sure they have to do it once in the lifetime. However, to go again as an option as an act of optional worship, yes. I've been talking to youngsters and people in the community and they're saying look I was thinking of going, but I've done my hajj already. The one obligation. So I'd rather spend it on the poor. I'd rather do something more productive with it than let the Saudi regime have the you know the funds and engage in atrocities. So it's a double edged sword and it's both important issues, social justice as well as the fundamental act of worship. But I believe the greatest thing that's coming out after this atrocity is that people are more vocal. They're talking about it. They're holding the regime accountable and I think that's the main thing. You know social justice is an ongoing struggle. We live in countries many of us where we've usurped the lands of the natives. In Canada there's the whole schools, residencial schools. So there's all kinds of issues in every regime and every government. But that doesn't deter us from doing what we believe is religion, whether we're Christians, whether we're a Jew, whether we're Muslim, Hindu, etc. The bottom line is we got to keep vocal and as Heraa also mentioned there are different ways to raise the concern via protest, via articles, via lobbying government officials. So we can address the issue without sacrificing our fundamentals or else we're falling in the trap of the extremists themselves. Right.

DC: I want to bring Aymann Ismail back into the conversation here Aymann. You know when I hear the three of you talking to you I can hear the agreements amongst you. But there is disagreement in terms of the way in which it comes to fruition ultimately. You don't have comfort right now going but you're not precluding yourself from going at some time in the future?

AYMANN ISMAIL: Yeah I'm hoping that this stance in this position forces the people in charge to consider that Muslim loyalty isn't a given, right? We have no loyalty to the Saudi government but we do have loyalty to the spaces that they are custodians of. So I think it's a lot more complicated than just saying we need to boycott Hajj or people should go on Hajj. I think every Muslim has a responsibility to guide himself. We believe that we will be asked for our deeds and where we spend our money and how we spent our time. And I feel comfortable knowing that this is something that I'll be asked about. And we believe God to be the most merciful ever. Right. So there is this concept of 'Man istata'a ilai'hi sabeel', right?

DC: Which Means?

AYMANN ISMAIL: Which means when you go on the Hajj, only if you're able to. So I actually have a question for the imam. I'm not a scholar in any case but there is this exception. And everything about Islam is supposed to be easy and merciful and justifiable. So I really do believe that this is something that Muslims ought to consider. Are they able to go because they can afford it and are they unable to go because they can't? Are they able to go because they can reconcile what Saudis doing in Yemen or are they unable to because they can't?

DC: So what's the question?

AYMANN ISMAIL: The question is whether or not that exception 'Man istata'a ilai'hi sabeel' - go only if you are able - includes a moral dilemma, the ethical dilemma that the Saudi royals are putting every Muslim under right now?

DC: When you consider against the context of what's happening in Yemen what's happened with Jamal Khashoggi, Yusuf Badat, your thoughts on that.

YUSUF BADAT: Well from the classical jurisprudence it's very clear that what the verse means is that if someone doesn't have safe passage - which basically means that their life is threatened or they don't have the health or they don't have the funds - then only are they exempt from the obligation. If we want to change this understanding I believe that if the leadership and the decision makers from the Muslim communities across the globe, if they say, okay, we want to send a very strong message to the Saudi regime let's you know delay the Hajj. And you know we're calling upon all the Muslims of the world this year to abandon Hajj for this specific reason of social justice. That is a possibility, but to completely abandon it or boycott it totally, I believe that would be against the religion itself.

DC: And I don't think that's what's being suggested. I just want to bring Heraa Hashmi in here because we haven't heard from you in a while. Heraa, around the idea of would you have qualms about spending your money in Saudi Arabia? You intend to go. You've made the case about why. Do you have qualms or concerns about spending the money in Saudi Arabia itself?

HERAA HASHMI: Every Muslim should be uncomfortable with you know knowing exactly where your money goes. You should absolutely be uncomfortable knowing that you know you're in a country that is committing these atrocities. At the same time, for me their religious obligation again, and you know I as a Muslim I'm not promised next year. I'm not promised that I will live, you know, in the next 10 years and I'll have the opportunity to go. So that worries me because I absolutely echo the sentiment of we should not conflate the Saudi regime with their religion with Hajj. And we should be aware of where our money is going. But it also comes down to whether a boycott would be effective. There are so many Muslims going every year and unless it was a worldwide movement. You know if a few people left and didn't go and withdrew from the pilgrimage you know there would be others to take that place. I don't know to what extent it would be effective. I am aware that the revenue that Saudi makes from Hajj is quite substantial outside of oil. But I also believe that a lot of it is made by the private sector. So again I wouldn't know how effective it would be in the first place.

DC: Aymann Ismail, want to bring you in. What is it about this year? The involvement of the Saudis in Yemen has been going on for a number of years now. Human rights abuses within Saudi Arabia have been well documented. Now we have the apparent assassination of Jamal Khashoggi. What is it that has made your stance change?

AYMANN ISMAIL: Yes. I think the assassination has made every Muslim consider the prospect of that representing who they are wherever they live. Saudi Arabian culture really takes- people pay a lot of attention to it and they usually prop it up as an example of what an Islamic society is. So I think many Muslims have had to answer for what Saudi Arabia has been doing and what it continues to do. And the assassination has been so appallingly gruesome and every detail is excruciating and painful to listen to and hurtful to read. So I think it's especially blown over on the western society so so much because of how gruesome and unjustifiable that it was. But for me this isn't just a new sentiment that's born out of the latest news. This is something that's been in my heart for a long time and it's really uncomfortable for me to take this position. I don't want to take this position. Hajj is that important and it is religiously commanded for us to go and complete it. It's just really heartbreaking that Saudi Arabian rulers are putting all of us in this position in the first place. This shouldn't be hard. Like every Muslim should have no issue with going and completing their Hajj. But the fact that I know that I'll be asked about where my money went. I can't, I can't live like that. I can't know that I supported and contributed to the fact that 22 million people need humanitarian aid in Yemen. That's crazy.

DC: Heraa Hashmi as you hear the case that Aymann Ismail is making, how do you reconcile that with your own opinion, with your own approach?

HERAA HASHMI: Good question. I don't want to sound jaded obviously but my concern is, is this something that will change over the next few years? If it's not Khashoggi it's some other atrocity or some other crime. And even just living in America I know that my taxes go towards supporting atrocities in other countries and so that is something that on a daily basis I have to reconcile, is this civic duty with religious obligation. But again I do think it's something that it can be separated. Obviously I feel uncomfortable knowing that I can't go to Hajj and feel completely free and devoid of any you know concerns about the people of the world. But at the same time this is something I will be asked about. And I think I can do both in tandem is work on the ground making sure that the voices are heard, making sure I'm lobbying, I'm doing what I can and then also completing what I have to do, in the hopes that God will look favorably upon those actions and help the people.

DC: Yusuf Badat, you speak about the frequency with which you go twice a year to Saudi Arabia. How can a Muslim who's listening to this conversation, who is filled with its own internal conflict that many are right now, how could they go. And yet support the Saudi government less? You talk about the cost being 16,000 dollars Canadian, for many Canadian Muslims who will travel. How do you spend less? How do you support the Saudi government less? How can you how can you achieve both goals?

YUSUF BADAT: Well because of my experience and my frequent travels to Saudi Arabia I know the bulk of the money goes to the private sector and to middlemen that are making the arrangements. So I don't believe the spending makes a vast difference, but being vocal about the issues. So I'm going to tell you about the locals when I'm there. They are disgruntled with their own government. For example the last time I went, which was last summer, I met a Saudi. And you know I wanted to get a SIM card and he noticed that I was from Canada. So he said, hey you know there's some tension between Saudi and Canada. Then he himself said, you know what that's the governments. There's nothing to do with us. We're one. We're on one page and we welcome you here. And you have come as a guest of God and we embraced you. And we disagree with some of the things that our own government does.

DC: They can't freely do that in front of a government.

YUSUF BADAT: Exactly right. So I think going to pilgrimage can also be a means of raising the concerns because millions of Muslims from across the globe are coming and many of them don't know about the issues. Others may be aware but when we converse with one another and we talk with one another, it brings about the awareness amongst people. Then I believe that slowly but surely a change will come. Another example is part of the pilgrimage we are intense in what we call the tent city in Mina. While I was in the tent a reporter from Arab News came and he said you know I'm just going around to the foreigners and just interviewing and what's your perspective. And in our tent the Canadians were talking about social justice issues to the reporter. And I'm sure that translated into an article and the Saudis themselves are reading that. So I believe we need to raise that concern, do what is possible but not undermine our obligations. I met a Sudanese individual who said you asked me how much did you pay for Hajj. I said we average paid 16,000 Canadian dollars. He said I've paid 100 US. So I said How did you do that. He said I don't take any service from the government here. I got my visa and I'm in a tent wherever I go. So there are ways to avoid handing over our valued money to the Saudi regime. It will require some sacrifice and struggle but we can still fulfill our God given obligation.

DC: Aymann Ismail we've got less than a minute left here but I just wonder very briefly if I can ask you what will need to change for you to feel it's time for you to go on Hajj?

AYMANN ISMAIL: Not that much to be honest. If the Saudi Arabian government tomorrow said, okay, we will take the money that we get from the Hajj pilgrimage and reinvest in the Muslim community, maybe like setting up a fund where they make it cheaper instead of making it more expensive every year. Any kind of commitment that they make to not use the money that we pay to fulfill our obligation to God to kill innocent people, to violate the law of God then that would make me feel better and that would make me feel more comfortable.

DC: We're going to leave the discussion there. Very interesting discussion. Thank you very much to the three of you.

AYMANN ISMAIL: Thank you so much.

HERAA HASHMI: Thank you so much for having us.

DC: Ayman Ishmael is a staff writer for Slate magazine. He was in New York City. Heraa Hashmi is a student at the University of Colorado and she spoke with us from Boulder Colorado. Yusuf Badat is an imam at the Islamic Foundation of Toronto. He was speaking to us from Scarborough Ontario. Well coming up in our next half hour how to get more people from all backgrounds into the great outdoors and into the advertising materials created by outdoor gear makers. It's a discussion that sparked by a Canadian co-op mea culpa this week. That's coming up in just moments. I'm David Common and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current. [Music: Theme]

MEC's commitment to more diverse models in ads is welcome, if overdue, say critics

Guests: David Labistour, David Edward Mills, Kamal Al-Solaylee, Jacqueline Scott

DC: I am David Common and you were listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: People of color don't even like skiing, climbing, hiking, camping and getting outside that is wrong.

VOICE2: I don't know who ever wrote that or said that. But you're a moron.

VOICE3: That's a false statement people of colour do love to hike, camp, ski.

VOICE 4: It's probably the media and how images and video is being portrayed right now.

VOICE 5: I know many people of color who enjoy going outside such as myself.

VOICE 6: I spend time in B.C. hiking, I'm on the trail, I see people of color.

VOICE 7: This Just feel sad because I feel like it just comes from a place of ignorance.

VOICE 8: It's silly, absolutely silly.

DC: The outside is for everyone. At least that's the idea behind the video we just heard and it was produced by the popular Canadian chain of outdoor stores: Mountain Equipment Co-op, known as MEC or M E C. It's an East-West thing depends where you live. If you are a Mountain Equipment Co-op member you may have noticed a message from its CEO in your e-mail inbox this week. David Labistour's open letter started with a question: 'Do white people dominate the outdoors?' It's part apology, part industry wide critique. And his letter said that Mack and other companies had fallen short by using nearly only white models in ads, in catalogs throughout the years that they'd given the impression that nature is not a place for people of color. He's pledged that his company will do better. David Labistour joins us from Vancouver. Hello.

DAVID LABISTOUR: Hello. Do you think it is true that white people were dominating the outdoors at least when it came to ads?

DAVID LABISTOUR: Oh absolutely. We did a study about a year ago. We were making some documentaries about people of color in the outdoors and the producer who made the documentaries went through all of the publications in the industry for a month before he made the ads. He looked the ski mags, he looked at biking magazine, he looked at outdoor magazines. He looked at Web sites and across all the publications he looked at there were only three people of color and those three people happen to be porters or drivers in the adventures that were being spoken about in those magazines.

DC: Well that seems to say something doesn't it?

DAVID LABISTOUR: Yes it does.

DC: As you have now just taken this on. But I wonder why it has taken until now to take it on to correct this to do something?

DAVID LABISTOUR: Yes that's a good question. And we've been working on inclusion and diversity in the organization for over three years now. But it hasn't been a priority push. And in 2017 we got the information, early 2018, is we did one of our annual studies in our last survey we included the question asked if people could identify whether they were people of color or not. And what we got out of that survey was quite surprising in that people of color were as inclined, or more inclined, to be active in the outdoors than white people. And that really jumped out at us. We need to represent the communities in which our stores are and we need to represent the diversity that is Canada. And if we don't we will not remain relevant into the future.

DC: It sounds to me though that you're saying more than that, that you're saying your ads were not speaking to many of your potential customers.

DAVID LABISTOUR: Yes we were not reflecting our membership and our customers.

DC: Okay. So how do you change this?

DAVID LABISTOUR: The first thing is our brand has to be diverse in how we represent ourselves which is largely around imagery. The second thing is we have to hire and support a more diverse workforce. And then of course the third part is that our representatives and our ambassadors need to be diverse as well and we actually doing a reasonable job in that one.

DC: Now you have pointed out yourself that you are quote "another straight white male with a voice in this outdoor industry". How much credibility do you think you have? More to the point why are you the one that should be leading this charge now?

DAVID LABISTOUR: Well I'm the leader of this organization and I have the data. So for me this is an organizational imperative. This is not a political imperative.

DC: A cynic though might say this is this is just a marketing move, that it's an attempt to sell products as opposed to doing substantial. And what would you say to that cynic?

DAVID LABISTOUR: Yes I understand there's a huge amount of cynicism towards brands and businesses today. And everything you do is going to come under scrutiny and criticism from some quarters of the community. This another study which shows that by 2031, 63 percent of the population of Toronto will be people of color, 59 percent of the Vancouver population and 41 percent of the Montreal population. So if we don't diversify the organization we will not be relevant into the future.

DC: And what is the kind of response you've had since you made the announcement that you are going to tackle this, going to do something, going to diversify both your ads and your stores and your offering?

DAVID LABISTOUR: Mixed, I say 80 percent. So looking at social media sentiment where about 80 percent positive. But having said that, there were about 20 percent that are not very positive and I've had some e-mails that are quite astounding in their positioning.

DC: Give me a sense of those negatives though, only because we can learn from them I think.

DAVID LABISTOUR: I think a lot of the negatives is political, that people feel this is a political move and it's not a political move in any way. And then there are the people that feel that they're being excluded, that when we speak about people of color they are being excluded.

DC: Yes I mean I know you say it isn't political but of course there are parallels to what is going on in political currents in terms of some in the white population feeling as if the opportunities they've had in the past won't necessarily be there in the future. I suppose you're making a choice about your own future.

DAVID LABISTOUR: Absolutely. And we're looking at it through demographic numbers. But absolutely you're right. The world is a very complex place right now and there are a lot of complex emotions that are playing out. I understand that.

DC: David Labistour thank you very much for chatting with us about this today.

DAVID LABISTOUR: Thanks for having me on.

DC: Lots of entertaining things for us to continue this discussion. David Labistour is the CEO of Mountain Equipment Co-op speaking to us from Vancouver. Now it's not only MEC that's trying to do better. Other outdoor brands like Patagonia and Columbia have been making similar efforts to reflect the diversity of people who enjoy the outdoors. And advocates across North America have been working to get more people from diverse backgrounds interested in the outdoors. I'm joined by three people to share their thoughts and their experiences. James Edward Mills is the author of the Adventure Gap. He's worked in the outdoor industry for decades. We reached him in Los Angeles. Jacqueline Scott is working on her Ph.D. at the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education and she's studying how wilderness is perceived by black Canadians. She's with me in our Toronto studio and Kamal Al-Solaylee he is a professor at Ryerson School of Journalism. He's also the author of Brown: What Being Brown in the World Today Means. He is with me in studio as well. Hello to all three of you.

JAQUELINE SCOTT: Good morning.

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: Good morning.

JAMES EDWARD MILLS: Good morning.

DC: James Edward Mills we'll start with you what did you think when you heard of MEC's announcements?

JAMES EDWARD MILLS: Well I was personally very excited to hear this. I had the pleasure of spending quite a bit of time in Canada and I know that the Canadian culture is very focused on the outdoors. But I, in my limited experience, my experience has basically been that there's not very much representation when it comes to people of color when you take a look at basic things like advertising or representation in areas of promoting the outdoors to a broader cross-section of the Canadian public. So when I heard this announcement I was very pleased and look forward to having Canada be a good representation of how an organization like MEC can be a leader on this front.

DC: Jacqueline Scott you and I were sitting across from each other in the studio as David Labistour was speaking talking about the ads that they had seen in the past where there were three people of color. And they were porters or waiters and that's it. You and I shared a look at that moment. What are you thinking now given that history?

JAQUELINE SCOTT: I think MEC is doing a fantastic job simply in terms of recognizing that race is an issue in the Canadian outdoors in the wilderness. And that is something that many organizations don't particularly want to talk about. So first that I think that it's excellent. In terms of the advertising. Yes that is true. It's what in school we call the visual apartheid, that when you look at advertising what you tend to see white people having all the fun and very very few black people. So what he's saying about the advertising in my experience rings true.

DC: And what it is the message that's sending?

JAQUELINE SCOTT: Black people don't come you do not belong in this space. It is a white space and if you are there your role will be the porter, the cook, the cleaner. Don't come.

DC: Was that the intended message, do you think, even recently?

JAQUELINE SCOTT: It may not be the intended message but visually that's what you see.

DC: It's the effect.

JAQUELINE SCOTT: It's the effect. It's telling you that you're not welcomed in a space and by extension you're not wanted in the space. So if you're thinking of going hiking, camping or canoeing at the back of your mind is the image that well people like me don't do those kind of activities. And if I try it, what kind of reception am I going to get? I am out of place.

DC: Kamal Al-Solaylee, we now see some of the new ads that are coming out from Mountain Equipment Co-op, some of the new imagery and for almost the first time ever it now includes people of color. Do they deserve credit for this or do you think this is simply marketing?

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: I mean definitely they deserve credit. I mean the idea of including more people in advertising and the images that you send to the world is something that needs to be applauded. What I find astounding is that it took them up until the fall of 2018 to realize that Canada is a diverse country and that the demographics that CEO just spoke about - not just projecting into the future - but currently in Toronto almost 50 percent or more than 50 percent identify as visible minority. And that for a company with such a national profile to only realize that so recently seems to be, on one hand sort of almost willful misunderstanding of the demographics of our country.

DC: But they're not alone in sort of being so far to the realisation. We now see other companies Columbia, Patagonia among them. But James Edward Mills as I bring you back into the conversation this is something you have been attempting to shine a light on, waving your arms for years. And have you seen any response or any substantive response until now?

JAMES EDWARD MILLS: Well I definitely think things haven't changed and I oddly enough it has very little to do with the companies and the industry. When it comes to increased visual representation a lot of it has to do with social media. And it's been in the last three to five years that you have affinity groups being created recently in the United States where people of color are showing themselves in the outdoors. Organizations like Latino outdoors, Native Outdoors, Outdoor Afro, even representation in the LGBTQ community as well as people that you are less likely to see in nature, like people who are overweight, people with disabilities. I think that it's been a big reflection of the interest of people of color and underrepresented segments of the population that are presenting themselves and companies are starting to pay attention, because the visual representation is telling a different narrative than their catalogs and store displays and their hang tags have been revealing. They're seeing a new demographic reality that they frankly can no longer ignore.

DC: Jacqueline Scott you were making many of the same points. But one thing that David Labiche store said that I found particularly revealing was that their own research now shows they have been ignoring a very large potential customer base that their survey found people of color are actually more active outdoors than white people. What do you think this means in the context of what is now happening?

JAQUELINE SCOTT: I think that, few things. Number one: the recognition that Canada is a multi racial multicultural society and that needs to be reflected in all areas and the outdoors seems to be the last bastion of what I call the myth of Canada is a great white country, the great white north. And so putting people of color in the ads is catching up to that reality that 'hey this is who we are'. So that's one issue. And my research particularly focuses on the wilderness you will see black people outdoors, for example, whether in the city parks or whether down by the lake. But in terms of the wilderness, the back country experience, were less likely to be there. And that is my particular research focus. And in terms of the wilderness I'm looking at, well, how do you make that space much more welcoming. And part of making it more welcoming is recognizing that race, and in terms of the black community, the legacy of slavery is one of the things that may shape our attitude towards the wilderness, i.e. In our imagination, the wilderness is not necessarily the place where you go to relax it's a place where there is some fear of race based violence. There is a potential that if something goes wrong, where your witnesses? In the city you have witnesses. But in the wilderness, where are they?

DC: This is turning the channel somewhat. But of course not everybody shares an affinity for the outdoors. There is some audio that we're going to play now it's from Canadian comedian Gilson Lubin.

SOUNDCLIP

There are things in this country that I'm looking for that I've heard about but haven't seen my own two eyes. Anybody else like? That like leprechauns. I heard about that when I was in [unintelligible] a leprechaun. Unicorn's is that real. Black people with cottages. Is it real? [Laughter] I have yet to be invited to a cottage by a black family. Not once. I didn't know what a cottage was till invited me. I'm like 'what the hell is a cottage? Is that where you make a cheese? What are you talking about? [Laughter] I just know you get happy when you talk about the cottage. Your faces light up. Give us one cottage. You won't see us. We're not idiots. Our history in the woods is not a success story. Uh-oh. We like the city where there's lights and witnesses. You know.

DC: So that speaks directly to what Jacqueline, you were saying. And Kamal Al-Solaylee, how do you relate to what you hear in that performance?

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: Oh I relate to it a 100 percent. I mean despite all the efforts to bring in more people of color into the wilderness or the cottage culture, they are not places in which I am particularly keen on at all. I actually find that they're, as Jacqueline said, they're not particularly welcoming and they're kind of the last bastion of a certain image of Canada. I mean the fact is that 82 percent of Canadians live in what stats Canada called sort of midsize and larger towns and cities. And we continue to think of Canada in terms of its wilderness, in terms of the outdoors, in terms of this great expanse of land. And there's this sort of there's a danger when our narrative of our country is reduced to something that that is that doesn't reflect the experience of 80 percent of the population.

DC: That true Canada is somehow out there raving the elements, wrestling with bears.

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: And it's a rites of passage. I mean particularly for people of color there's that there is an assumption that you're another Canadian until you go to the cottage. You're not a Canadian until you've been in the outdoors. And I kind of question also that narrative of sort of ruggedness and resilience and toughness. I mean to me if you really want to be rugged try to take the Toronto subway during rush hour. I mean that is really what the rug is to me these days. So I you know also the idea that people who live in the city I kind of Fey or elite and that you need to sort of get in touch with your inner sort of inner, your natural self. There's something elemental about nature all of which kind of I bristle at. When people talk about cottage culture or the wilderness I just want them to understand there are some things to consider here and it's not just this this sort of narrative that every Canadian should be part of.

DC: James Edward Mills your book The Adventure Gap you look at the history of outdoor recreation and adventure but you've also found many cases where people of color were at the forefront, but then our race started the narrative.

JAMES EDWARD MILLS: That has basically been the, I think, the biggest problem with why we find ourselves in the position that we are today. I mean if you take a look at at least American history when it comes to the great explorers of the early 20th century. One of the primary figures of exploring the Poles for example was a gentleman by the name of Matthew Henson. And at that time he was a leading polar explorer in partnership with the gentleman that everyone has heard of by the name of Robert Parry. And in 1939 when they made their way to the North Pole, Henson, an African-American from Baltimore Maryland, was the one person who had the skills, the expertise, the language to be able to navigate their way to the highest point on the planet. But when it came time to give credit for that accomplishment Henson was basically written out of the narrative. And it was Robert Parry who's got ultimate credit for having made it to the North Pole. Now 50 years. It took 50 years for that the United States government to recognize Hansen's contributions, and another 50 years after that before the National Geographic Society gave Hansen the same honor that they had given Perry almost 100 years earlier.

DC: A Century.

JAMES EDWARD MILLS: Almost a century, and that's where we find ourselves in a very difficult situation, when you literally have the accomplishments of African-Americans completely written out of the narrative. And when you especially talk to young people and you ask them Where is your place, where is your role in the outdoors, they don't have any frame of reference you know. And without that historical frame of reference that is every bit as legitimate as or African as their white counterparts, we start to have a decline in one's mind in terms of whether or not they belong in the outdoors.

DC: So Jacqueline Scott The next question to you is to go back where we started if we do indeed see more people of color in ads for outdoor equipment outdoor clothing, and we hear more about people of color who are and have been role models in the outdoor space, will we see a difference on the trails and in those who are enjoying wilderness?

JAQUELINE SCOTT: Yes we will. And we also have our own Canadian role models here. For example when we think of Harriet Tubman people know of her as the leader leading slaves from the U.S. to freedom in Canada. And we should have claimed her as Canadian because she did live in Canada for 20 years. But if you think from an outdoor perspective, she's leading people through the wilderness. She made 20 tracks. That's an incredible amount of outdoor survival skills for her to have. If I had known that when I was beginning to start hiking it might have made things a little bit easier because her presence tells me that people like me have been in the wilderness. If we think of say the Calgary Stampede, one of the starters of the stampede were actually the black cowboy John Ware, in the 1880s. So again if you know that then it's like 'oh black person horseback riding'. You have a historical legacy that you can look at and say 'yes I do belong here. It's okay. I have a history here'. And in terms of the visuals of Canada as the rugged country, think of the group of seven paintings, this pristine wilderness. But it's not true. This is indigenous land. There were always people here. And it's about how white people construct the narrative. Get that sense to academic. It's about how white people look at the outdoors as this blank space terra nullius. No one one's there. And therefore you go there to reassert your masculinity, i.e. be a man, be rugged. But there were always people here. There are indigenous people. And so therefore it's the discrepancy between the myths that we tell ourselves and the actual reality and all of that comes together in the outdoors because it's meant to be the iconic Canadian experience. And I am saying Canadian experience. But for who?

DC: For who. Kamal Al-Solaylee, Jacqueline is doing a pretty good job of selling the outdoors. You change your mind?

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: Not in the least. No no no. I mean in general nature is a language that I just never I've never learned. And I can I can survive in this city. I don't know if I will in the wilderness. And that's just you know, this is not a race issue. This is just a very personal preference. But there are things about the whole culture of - aside from that ruggedness - that just does not appeal to me and one of them is that you know part of the cottage culture for example is consumption. I mean you revere nature one hand but you contribute to it's downgrading it in a way. Like our excessive consumption is not helping the environment and yet we worship nature. So that that contradiction has always stood out to me about Canadians love of nature. And to be perfectly honest I am originally from Yemen which is a country in the middle of civil war. I have written extensively about the lives of refugees and asylum seekers. And you know nobody actually chooses to live in a tent and go and live and sort of go through that experience of living, of sleeping on the ground unless they had to. I cannot find the fact that we go out of our way to suffer. I mean I was speaking to one of my friends in Yemen and recently she said like all she really wants to do is take a shower because there hasn't been running water. And I find that the people who actually go out of their way to kind of denied themselves the comfort of of living in the west, or the city comforts are just doing this kind of performance that I'm just not willing to play along with.

DC: Interesting perspective. Thanks very much to the three of you. We've covered a lot of ground in this discussion. Much appreciated.

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: Thank you.

JAMES EDWARD MILLS: Thank you very much.

DC: David James Edward Mills is the author of the adventure gap. He was in Los Angeles. Jacqueline Scott is a PhD candidate at the Ontario Institute for Studies and Education and Kamal Al-Solaylee is a professor at the Ryerson School of Journalism and the author of Brown: What Being Brown in the World Today Means. They were both with me in our Toronto studio. And that is our program for today. You can stay tuned to Radio 1 for Q. Members of the Beastie Boys will be on the show to talk about their music career and the passing of their band mate Adam Yauch. Finally, after our discussion on diversity and the great outdoors we'll leave you today with a few words from J. Drew Lanham. He's a professor of wildlife ecology in the College of Agriculture Forestry and Life Sciences at Clemson University in South Carolina. This is from a video he made for National Geographic and it's called bird watching while black. I'm David Common. Thanks very much for listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

You know there are essential tools for birding. There are binoculars or spotting scope, your field guide. And if you're black you're going to need probably two or three forms of ID. [Music]. Never wear a hoodie, ever. The word for an African-American in camouflage is Incog-negro. Black birds are your birds. Redwing blackbirds, grackles, Rusty birds, brewers blackbirds, blacks scoters, the acclaim black brant, crows, ravens and black birds are largely maligned. Any bird that's black is my bird. [Music] The edge of day is lightest trading those crepuscular hours are the times when many birds come to life. It's such a beautiful time to bird but if you're black birder and you are going to bird at night you better be careful because you might be perceived as being up to no good. Be prepared to be confused with the other black birder. When I meet another black birder it's like encountering an ivory billed woodpecker. An endangered species.

Friday October 26, 2018 Full Transcript

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