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The Current Transcript for September 22, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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VOICE: Together, we kept the numbers down all summer, but we all know that a second wave of this virus is coming.

MATT GALLOWAY: As COVID cases spike across Canada, getting tested can be an all day affair. Sniffles, sore throat, slight fever? You and your kids could be spending hours waiting in line to figure out if it's a virus or the virus. In 30 minutes, health reporter Andre Picard is here to talk about fixing the bottleneck and clarifying who should get the swab in the first place. And later, he shoots, he scores.

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[Clip of Hockey Night in Canada commentary in Punjabi]

MG: Harnarayan Singh has brought the joy of hockey to new communities with great calls like that. In an hour, the Hockey Night in Canada Punjabi commentator talks about growing up as a Sikh in a small town in Alberta. His journey to the game's biggest stage and how he reacted to Don Cherry's rant about immigrants supposedly not wearing poppies. But in 41 days, the U.S. will vote in a presidential election like no other. And we start with legendary journalist and presidential biographer, Bob Woodward, behind the scenes and on the record with Donald Trump. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

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Trump 'the wrong man for the job,' says veteran journalist Bob Woodward

Guests: Bob Woodward

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VOICE: You just breathe the air. That's how it's the past. And so that's a very tricky one. That's a very delicate one. It's also more deadly than your, you know, your even your strenuous flus.

MG: That's President Donald Trump speaking with the legendary Washington Post reporter, associate editor and author, Bob Woodward on the 7th of February. Then on the 19th of March, this conversation happened.

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VOICE 1: It's clear just from what's on the public record that you went through a pivot on this to, oh, my God, the gravity is almost inexplicable and unexplainable.

VOICE 2: Well, I think, Bob, really, to be honest with you.

VOICE 1: Sure, I want you.

VOICE 2: I wanted to, I wanted to always play it down. I still like playing it down.

VOICE 1: Yes.

VOICE 2: vBecause I don't want to create a panic.

MG: What the president knew about the coronavirus and kept hidden from the public has touched off a firestorm south of the border. For a half century, Bob Woodward has dug deep into American presidencies. In the early 1970s, his investigations, alongside Carl Bernstein broke what would become known as the Watergate scandal, which eventually led to the resignation of President Richard Nixon. Woodward's new book, Rage, takes a look at another president who is engulfed in scandal, this time during a catastrophic pandemic. I spoke with Bob Woodward last week in his only Canadian broadcast interview. Bob Woodward, good morning.

BOB WOODWARD: Morning.

MG: The president told you that he played down the deadliness of this pandemic because he did not want to panic the nation. What did that tell you about the way this president sees the people of the United States?

BOB WOODWARD: Well, I think part of the failure in all of this, in its grand historic failure on his part when he said he wanted to play it down and avoid the panic. He didn't understand the people he leads from. Going back to Franklin Roosevelt after Pearl Harbour, Roosevelt told the truth to the American people and he said in one of his fireside chats. So this is two days after Pearl Harbour in 1941. Roosevelt said government has confidence in your ability to hear the worst without losing heart. And Trump thought there would be panic. And we know the people in this country when they're told the truth, rally around together. This happened with the 9/11 terrorist attacks in 2001, where President Bush rallied the public. He rallied the Congress and Trump did not. I mean, this is this is tragic. He did not understand that he could have gone out at so many times, particularly at the State of the Union address. He gives to Congress to say what's going on, what's important, what the future is. And 40 million people tuned in on February 4th. Then he spent 15 seconds talking about the virus and said, we're doing everything we can. What I learnt in my reporting is that the key medium here is the January 28 meeting in the Oval Office when his national security adviser, Robert O'Brien, said, Mr. President, this virus is going to be not maybe this virus is going to be the biggest national security threat to your presidency. Then his deputy, who worked in China as a Wall Street Journal reporter for seven years, talked about information he had from right in China who told them that this is coming. It's going to be like the 1918 pandemic, the Spanish flu that killed six hundred and seventy five thousand people in the United States. The president, this top secret meeting, ask questions, was fully informed. And then instead of telling the public he chose a denial and a failure to do his duty as president to protect the country and to tell the truth to the country.

MG: You also point out that Dr. Anthony Fauci, who is one of the most respected disease experts in the world, was also initially downplaying the danger of this virus. Why was he doing that?

BOB WOODWARD: You're absolutely right. Fauci was down playing it. He was not at the top secret meeting on January 28. The doctors didn't go to that, it's all national security. But the deputy national security adviser, told Dr. Fauci what he had concluded from his sources in China, and I quote Fauci in the book saying that he was way over the line on it, was exaggerating. Fauci thought at the time. And then when it exploded in February, I quote Fauci saying, oh, my God, Matt was right all the time. Same with Dr. Redfield, head of the Centres for Disease Control, and he thought, Matt was just a journalist, previously an intelligence officer. And then when it exploded, I quote Redfield saying, oh, my God, a journalist got to the truth, not the doctors.

MG: I guess the question comes out of that is to whether the president is the only one to blame for the failed response to the coronavirus. If some of the most important people around him didn't twig to to how serious and how deadly this was, is it all to blame on him?

BOB WOODWARD: Matt, the president is the leader. And I've written about nine presidents from Nixon to Trump. So that's Ken Burns, the documentarian reminded me that that's 20 percent of the present presidents we have. And there is a sacred trust that the president of our country has. They have extraordinary power. They have the megaphone. He's the leader. Could somebody else have done something? Possibly. I didn't know until Mary, the nature and the extent of what Trump had been told on January 28. And I quite frankly, I was slow. I didn't understand.

MG: In saying that you were slow. I mean, you have faced fierce criticism from not making this public sooner. 200,000 people have died in your country. The belief is that perhaps lives could have been saved if the American public knew what the president knew and what the president wasn't doing. How do you respond to that criticism?

BOB WOODWARD: Yes, but it's not fierce criticism because people are now reading the book and realising in February the virus was not on anyone's radar. Fauci was saying when asked on television, can people go to the gym, to the movies, to the mall? And he said, yes. He green lighted it. So you know what am I trying to answer? What did the president know? When did he know it? And how did they know? And I kept digging at that. And finally and maybe got the answer. And that's when I ask President Trump on May 6th. Do you remember when your national security adviser told you that this virus will be the greatest national security threat to your presidency? And Trump said, no, but I know he said it. I know he said it. So, you know, whether whatever is going on there, he knew it was said and I didn't know it until May.

MG: You quote the former director of National Intelligence, Dan Coats, saying that Donald Trump to him, a lie is not a lie, It's just what he thinks and that he does not know truth from a lie. What is Dan Coats basing that on?

BOB WOODWARD: Experience dealing with Trump. Dan Coats is the number one intelligence officer in the country at this point for a couple of years. And Trump doesn't want to listen. Doesn't want the truth in the intelligence reports. I mean, there's scene after scene. You've read the book of coats. I mean, it wasn't frustration, just it was despair that he could not get the president to deal with the facts. And finally, President Trump fired coats last year. Coats was with his wife on a par five hole on one of Trump's golf courses in the area here when his chief of staff came on the phone to him and said The New York Times is just reporting that you've been fired.

MG: What does it mean for the United States to have a president who can't make the distinction between truth and a lie?

BOB WOODWARD: It is monumental. It is, we are in a position with the virus now. It's a moving train and it's moving faster. If you look at what Dr. Fauci has said with Dr. Redfield has said and Trump goes out and dismisses this repeatedly in Dr. Redfield testified before Congress a couple of days ago, wear a mask. And he held the mask and he's testified under oath and he said this may save you more than the vaccine. And Trump then says he called Dr. Redfield and Dr. Redfield was confused and didn't understand the question. Look at the testimony and look at Redfield had has this decades long record. And Redfield was on this from New Year's Day, January 1st. By the middle of that month, he had thousands of people working on the virus. So, what does it mean? It means Trump is the wrong man for the job.

MG: Do you have the sense, you talked about the sacred trust that is involved in being the president of the United States. Do you have the sense that he understands what the job is?

BOB WOODWARD: No, I don't. And I'm I'm really sad to say that presidents can make mistakes, or in the case of Nixon, he was a criminal and the Republican Party forced Nixon to resign. And I've covered and written about presidents and, you know, all of them have made mistakes. But it's always good faith. I don't know, I can't be a psychiatrist and ascertain what's going on in Trump's head. But his calculations, and I quote Fauci saying that he concludes that Trump has a negative attention span.

MG: What does that mean?

BOB WOODWARD: Well, it means that he hopscotches all over the place. I mean, everyone says I mean, in my conversations with Trump, which for 10 months, you know, look at what's in the book. Look at these transcripts. He'll go off on a subject. I'll ask about the virus and Trump will say, but the stock market's coming along fine. He hopscotches. The more important Fauci I quote saying that everything Trump does, he's interested in one thing re-election. And I think there's a lot of truth in that. And the man who is leading us. And as he told me repeatedly, he downplays the virus. Just this week, Trump's out saying, oh, I played with it. You know, that's a new word for the Scrabble dictionary I played. And he talked about my book. He was asked about my book. He said he read it and it's very boring and the anchor on Fox News asked, is it accurate? And Trump said, it's okay. It's fine. I mean, it's fine.

MG: Do you think he's actually read it?

BOB WOODWARD: Well, he said he read it. I don't know. So the other day he was saying it's a political hit job. My first book Fear, which came out in 2018, he denounced. He said it's all fiction, pure fiction.

MG: Why do you think he talked to you? I mean, in much of the book, he sounds resentful that he's even speaking to you on the phone. He's not sure what you're going to do with it. He calls you a left dem. Why do you think he spoke with you?

BOB WOODWARD: Well, I think he knew I would listen. People realize that I'm going to give him a fair say. And he said this week, he said, this is Trump talking, President Trump talking several days ago saying, I said many, many great things in that book. I let him have his say. That was my responsibility as a reporter. And that's what I told him. I said I'm going to put what you say and what happened in context also and the context is that 200,000 people have died and he could have averted some of it.

MG: I mean, much of what he's interested in is, as you portray, what reflects positively back on him. He goes and meets with with the leader of North Korea. And he's impressed not with the fact that he shook hands with the leader of North Korea. But as he says, there are more cameras in front of them than there are the Academy Awards.

BOB WOODWARD: Yes. As Kim Jong-un, the North Korean leader writes in one of these letters to Trump, I remember standing and holding your Excellency's hand and a pledge. I mean, it's almost like the Knights of the Round Table. They say we're going to be friends forever. We haven't had a war as Trump repeatedly reminded me, but I was able to get 25 letters.

MG: What do you think those letters tell you about how leaders around the world have figured out the president?

BOB WOODWARD: Well, the CIA concludes that the Kim Jong-un's letters are masterpieces because they play to Trump's sense of grandiosity. They play does Trump sense of having a role in history. But look, Kim Jong un is an authoritarian leader. He has a couple of dozen nuclear weapons at least. And Trump has, you know, kind of Boy Scout pledge with him that they're going to trust each other and always be friends. Now, whether that's going to work on foreign policy or old hands say this is so risky and dangerous and that may be the case. But let's not have a war. I can't judge the outcome of that. The outcome is going to be very important to this country and the world.

MG: Let me ask you about what's happening on the streets of your country right now. The book is called Rage. What role do you think the president has played in the rage that you're seeing playing out in the streets of America now?

BOB WOODWARD: Well, he feeds it. He does things like clears the area in front of the White House. This was in June and a peaceful protest and he brings in the military to do this and he goes and stands before a church and waves the Bible. Trump's dear friend and supporter, Senator Lindsey Graham, tells him, you know, that doesn't work. People aren't going to buy that, but Trump thinks it does.

MG: Does he think that it's a winning strategy? His son in law, Jared Kushner, is quoted saying that one of his strengths in some ways is baiting people and baiting Democrats in particular.

BOB WOODWARD: Yes. One of Kushner's famous phrase about controversy elevates message. Now, think about that. Kushner, who's the son in law, married Ivanka, both of them are senior advisers to Trump. Kushner is, for all practical purposes, the chief of staff. They've gone through four chiefs of staff. Kushner sees the president every day and the analysis that Kushner makes is when Trump comes out and says, well, the United States, before the virus, had the best economy in the history of the world and then the fact-checkers come along and say, oh, in the 1950s, it was better. And, you know, some time in ancient times they had a great economy. So they dispute. Trump, o there's an argument and Kushner says the controversy over that, that elevates Trump's message and that people say, yeah, well, the economy was good, really good. Well, whether it's the best in the world, these are the elite fact-checkers, the people who run around and don't like Trump. And they know the economy is good. They feel that Trump had delivered for them before the virus. So it's a strategic calculation that is very malevolent, quite frankly, to say let's stir up trouble and if the basic point about good economy gets across to people, then Trump wins. Then again, this is the truth problem. Why can't the president come out and say, you know, I'm really proud of the economy. Why does it have to be pumped up? Why does he have to do this? And that's the problem with the virus. That's the problem with everything.

MG: I've been speaking with journalist Bob Woodward. His new book is called Rage. The CBC News is next. And then when we return, we'll continue our conversation and hear how Donald Trump answered the question about his white privilege and why Bob Woodward fears for his country like never before. We're back in six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One.

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MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, the Globe and Mail's health columnist, Andre Picard, takes stock of Canada's covert efforts as cases continue to rise in many parts of the country and wait for tests gets longer and longer. But first, back to Rage. [Music:.

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MG: If you're just joining us, my guest is the veteran journalist and author, Bob Woodward. We spoke last week in his only Canadian broadcast interview about his new book, Rage. It is the culmination of extensive research, including many hours spent interviewing President Donald Trump on the record. Before the CBC News, we began talking about the rage on America's streets. We'll pick up with this exchange between Donald Trump and Bob Woodward.

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VOICE 1: It put me and I think lots of white, privileged people in a cave and that we have to work our way out of that to understand the anger and the pain, particularly black people feel in this country. Do you?

VOICE 2: No, you really drank the Kool-Aid, didn't you? Just listen to you. Wow. No, I don't feel that at all.

MG: You really drank the Kool-Aid? Bob Woodward, what do you make of that?

BOB WOODWARD: I was embarrassed for him as a human being and as a president because I was talking to him about white privilege and I cited myself as an example. My father was a lawyer and a judge in Illinois. We know Trump came from a white, privileged background. And this is after the killing of George Floyd, which was May 25th of this year. And the whole Black Lives Matter became a giant, giant reality in the country. And all I'm saying to the president, don't you see your wife privilege? I see white privilege for myself and our job. I talked to him earlier is to understand other people and people, black people particularly, feel it's not just anger, but it's pain. It's core pain.

MG: And he doesn't even acknowledge that?

BOB WOODWARD: Well, you heard him in his own voice. And I truly am embarrassed for him because I have lots of people in the news business, lots of friends who are people of white privilege, and they understand what they don't understand because of their position. And that's the job of the journalists. That's the job of president to have and live in an environment where people explain. And you you have other points of view. I mean, this is why Secretary of Defence Madis finally quit is he said he'd been asked to do lots of stupid things, as I quote him, saying others. Maddis says, I've been asked to do stupid things, but then to pull out of Syria. The time, the end of 2018. That is felony, stupid. Felony stupid. And so I quit. And that's not just your run of the mill day by day, stupid. It's felony stupid. And it really is. And there there are lots of felony stupid actions here. And the one you cited, I mean, play that again for your listeners where I have laid this out very carefully and he he mocks me. Do you, Bob, about the Kool-Aid.

MG: People have said that he's stupid, but people have also said that he's a racist. Do you believe he's a racist?

BOB WOODWARD: Look, I don't use terminology. I find Ben Bradlee was the editor of The Post during Watergate. I learnt from Ben report the facts don't get into name calling one way or another. And people are hopefully your facts and your reporting will be sound enough and authoritative enough that people will accept it. Sometimes they don't. We wrote all these stories before the 72 election about Watergate and all of the people involved in this criminal enterprise. And people didn't believe that it was. Nixon won in 1972. Forty nine states and Banza attitude was OK. We we keep reporting. We go on. We're not in the game of making assessments. We're in the game of is reporting now on this book. I had such extraordinary opportunity to interview Trump 19 times in 10 months. Some of them really, really long, some of them very short. But 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 40 minutes and get the whole picture. Talk to other people, get some records and some diaries and so forth. And I did conclude at the end that Trump is the wrong man for the job.

MG: You also say that you're worried. I mean, you talk to him about the virus and you say at the end of of that section of the book that you're worried for your country. So just in the last few minutes that we have, tell me a bit more about fearing for your country and the alarm that you raise in the book.

BOB WOODWARD: Well, yes, I do fear for my country because we have a leader, in my view, because of the Obama overwhelming evidence. It's a conclusion based not on and I don't have any partisan stake in this. I've got to be. Neutral because we have a president who does not understand his responsibility, does not under stand his job. And we are in the middle of the pandemic. He's all over the lot. He's confused everyone, even his own supporters. And his job is to give guidance. It's to tell people the truth.

MG: What did it take for you as a journalist to get to that point where you needed to to make a comment?

BOB WOODWARD: Overwhelming evidence. And see, I wrote it in the epilogue. And then I showed it to my wife, Elsa, who edited the book six times, is my really my co-author in all of this is are my assistants and editor. And I showed them all of this. And they said, well, you're writing a book about truth. And that's what you feel is the truth, based on evidence, you can't leave that out of the book. You have an obligation to say that. And I've had friends call me who have said they would be calling me if I didn't reach that obvious conclusion and say you're just like these Republican senators who know the truth, but won't stand up and tell it. And so I realised I had to put that in the book. And if it's maybe a notch more direct than in fear 2018, when I concluded that there is a nervous breakdown of the executive branch in America. That's not exactly an endorsement that essentially says it's not working, that he's the wrong man for the job. But now I said it very directly.

MG: Just finally, you say that while the constitutional democracy in the United States might seem wobbly, it's held during his first term in office, would it hold if Donald Trump were to be re-elected in November?

BOB WOODWARD: Well, we don't know. I mean, I really think that's an important conclusion. We have a First Amendment where I we have free speech in this country. He is that said the attorney general or the FBI or people to raid my house and, you know, steal my tape recordings and documents and put me in jail and say I'm guilty of something. So there is that democracy is functioning. The leadership is what's failed. And we're about to run in to a mountain or over a cliff with the coming election because of the whole questioning of ballots and mail in ballots and so forth. He's launched a full scale attack on his own election process. And if you think about it, if he believed in democracy, not just for him to be re-elected, if he really believed in it, he would be out there at the forefront of saying, let's make sure we have a level playing field. We have a full and fair election. He could be an advocate for that. But instead, he's an advocate for K, a C. He's saying, oh, we can't trust these ballots. We're not going to know after the election who really won. And, you know, there's all kinds of fraud. I mean, think about that. It it is, of course, it's an extension of the self-centred US that he's practised in his presidency, that he would attack the electoral system, you know, go to a hundred thousand feet and down and look down on that. I mean, my God, how can the president do that?

MG: Do you worry about the integrity of the election?

BOB WOODWARD: Of course. Of course. I mean, who isn't?

MG: In terms of what could happen not just on the 3rd of November, but what could happen in the days and weeks following.

BOB WOODWARD: Yes. And you know, their policies in the States, I was listening to the secretary of state of the state of Michigan. And that person is in charge of the electoral process, saying they have a law or a rule in Michigan that you can count mail in ballots 30 days after the election. I talked to a former governor of Michigan who said they're trying to change that. But, you know, it's an open invitation. Well, we can wait 30 days to count ballots. You know, this is this is people better put on their seatbelts and their hoeness their shoulder harnesses in sit in a steady chair. We are going in to a moment in American history that makes me shudder as first a reporter. How do you cover it? How do you make any sense of this? What do you say after whatever numbers flow in and you got the president of the United States saying you can't trust them.

MG: But also as an American.

BOB WOODWARD: Listen, I tremble. I have two older daughters who I adore. And I always ask the question, what kind of world are we leaving to them? And I am not happy with the world we're leaving to my daughters, Diana and Tali.

MG: Bob Woodward, a great pleasure to talk to you. I appreciate your time this morning. Thank you.

BOB WOODWARD: Thank you.

MG: Bob Woodward's new book is called Rage. We reached him at his home in Washington on Friday.

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Andre Picard with the latest on surging COVID-19 cases across provinces

Guests: Andre Picard

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. My name's Matt Galloway.

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VOICE: We have planned for the worst and are ready for it and everything else in between. So we are ready to go and as I said, we are looking forward to sharing this plan with the people of Ontario.

MG: Ontario's Health Minister Christine Elliot insists her province is ready for a second wave of COVID-19. Quebec says that second wave has already begun there. And B.C. in Alberta are already seeing growing numbers in their provinces as well. Across this country, concerns are growing about whether health systems are indeed ready to cope with a false surge. Andre Picard is keeping track of this all. He's back with us to unpack the latest. Andre is the Globe and Mail's health columnist. He's in Montreal. Andre, good morning.

ANDRE PICARD: Good morning.

MG: Let's start in your province. Yesterday, Quebec saw 586 new cases, mostly in Montreal, Quebec City, and parts of La Beauce. Are you concerned by those numbers?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, I think we should all be concerned what's going on in Quebec, across the country and around the world. You know, it's this is not a Canadian only phenomenon. We're seeing two million new cases a week of coronavirus. So we're seeing these spikes happening in dozens. I read 73 countries this morning are having these spikes like Canada. So this is of grave concern. What's going to happen in the fall?

MG: What's your understanding as to what is driving this spike, this uptick in cases?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, I don't think it's any surprise. You know, we lock down when you're locked down. There's no interactions. It's hard to spread illness. The more you open up, the more there's going to be this risk of spread. There's a lot of fatigue as well. We're reopening stores, malls, you name it, Bartis. Once there's virus circulating, people are going to get this. It's not a surprise that is happening.

MG: The premier of Quebec, Francois Legault, announced new restrictions in the hardest hit regions of your province. Bars and restaurants can't serve alcohol past 11:00 PM, events and religious services are capped at 25 people. Do those measures go far enough, given what you're seeing right now?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, probably not. But I have to say, you know, nobody should envy being a politician these days. It's hard to find that balance. People need to work. People want to get on with their lives. But we also have to try and restrict. So you can't we can't have a perpetual lockdown. So, you know, as we've been saying here for four months now, we have to find a way to live with this virus, not in fear of it. So what's that balance? I don't know. I don't think anyone knows. So we're just sort of playing it by ear.

MG: Things aren't much better in the province of Ontario. 425 new cases there yesterday. Ontario is now limiting private gatherings to 10 people indoors, 25 people outdoors. Doesn't apply to bars and restaurants though. And people say that this policy in some ways is incoherent, that if you have people under the age of 40 who are the ones who seem to be at the forefront of this virus spread, many of those people are working in those bars and restaurants. You've allowed the bars and restaurants to be open. Should you be surprised that cases are circulating amongst that population?

ANDRE PICARD: And you're right, it is incoherent. You can't see you can have gatherings of more than ten and then have, you know, schools with 30 in the classroom. There's all kinds of inconsistencies and and nonsensical rules, especially in Ontario. I think Ontario's particularly struggling with explaining its policies and many of them are inexplicable. So it's not too surprising. So I think we have to at a certain point, you have to make some hard choices. Do we need Baras to be open period not? Should there be 10 or 20 or 50 people in them? Do they need to be open? What are our priorities as a society? And if they have to be closed, we have to figure out a way to to help the people who work there, which are mostly young people. So there's all this blame going on, you know, two thirds of the cases are in young people. We know that. But it's not because just because they're party against because they're at the frontline of this pandemic, it's sort of like saying the soldiers, the young soldiers who get shot in the frontline should be blamed. And, you know, of course, they're going to get shot. They're at the front line.

MG: Let's talk about what's happening in schools in Edmonton. There are something like 1800+ students and staff in that city alone who are in self isolation because the virus has been found and there are limited cases of it spreading within the school, which is something to be to point out that there's a distinction there. But people are worried about a second wave in schools and in daycares. How long do you think that the schools and daycares realistically can stay open, given the increase that you've been talking about?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, it depends on our risk tolerance. So, you know, Edmonton has all these people in isolation. Quebec has actually 334 schools with cases and there's not the same level of worry. It's a very interesting cultural difference between English and French Canada. But it just again, you have to look around the world. You have to figure out, you know, how many people can you. Are kids. You tolerate being infected. Are they getting sick? How can we keep the bubbles? How big should they be? So again, all over Europe, forcing schools open summit to working well, summit, a disaster in Canada, sort of somewhere in between there. We're not sure yet. We're still finding our feet. But again, it's as we said earlier, if you decide this is a priority, then you have to figure out how to do it. You can't just say we're going to wait and see if we shut down again. I'm not sure that's the solution. We have to figure out at what point do we shut down. What's the metric for reopening? We don't have any of this stuff. We're kind of just sort of plugging along and unclearly on many of these issues.

MG: What parents are worried about, I think, is, yes, that shutdown and to your point, the lack of information, what's the threshold about schools perhaps shutting down again, but also the fragility of the situation as a whole? You're seeing Canadians in many parts of the country facing our long line-ups to get tested. Many of those are family members of kids who would be be in school because they have a sniffle or a little fever or something like that. You've called the testing situation a debacle. Tell me more about why you use that word.

ANDRE PICARD: Well, it is. And again, particularly in Ontario, to a lesser extent, in Quebec, where there are these huge lines, it's because we have to constantly adapt to what's going on in the real world. So I think Alberta is a good example of doing this well. Alberta is the first province. Say everyone who wants to get tested should get tested. Last week they said no. Only people who are at high risk should be tested because we don't have the capacity to test everyone willy nilly. And that's what's happening in Ontario. There's a lot of worried, well, people standing in line for hours. And it's just it's creating a lot of noise that's costing a lot of money and it's not giving us really interesting results. What we should be doing is probably going out and seeking people at high risk and testing them. You know, the young people working in the stores, people, bus drivers, etc., rather than people who my child has a sniffle,that's not a reason to get tested. We can't continue to operate if we have send every child with a sniffle all fall to get a COVID test.

MG: British Columbia has revised the 17, there are 17 symptoms that parents were told to screen for every morning. And B.C. has revised that list. And so now if your child has, you know, a sore throat or a runny nose or a headache or fatigue, which it seems like if you're a parent, most kids eventually get that over the course of winter and fall and into spring. You don't have to perhaps check that box and maybe your kid can still go to school. Is that the approach that we need? To shrink that list and be a bit more to some people say sensible in terms of what those symptoms should be?

ANDRE PICARD: Absolutely. We have to be a little more sensible. We have to a little be a little more thoughtful. It was my child in any way exposed to people in a way that they could be infected. And the answer to that is usually, no. So you have to narrow it down. We we always sent our kids to school with sniffles. Right. So we can't just suddenly lockdown children for the rest of the year because there's more than one. There's this new virus circulating. We have to try and figure out what it's all about balance. And we're not going to get it perfectly right, but we can certainly get the balance better than we have it now.

MG: I know that, I mean, there are jurisdictional issues here, but if you have various provinces doing different things, whereas the federal government, in providing some leadership here and saying this is the standard, this is what we need to be paying aware attention to what we need to be aware of.

ANDRE PICARD: Well, been an issue since day one. What's the role of the federal government? And it should be to give guidance. And there's I don't think there's enough guidance coming on testing. I was just reading the public health agency guidance on testing, and it essentially says it's up to the provinces. So that's that's not good enough. That's not leadership. So I think there needs to be some clarity. And of course, in Canada, the feds are always worried about stepping on provincial toes, but at a certain point, you you have to do that.

MG: Couple more things. Just before in the last couple of minutes, we have before I let you go. One is the other end of the age spectrum. Real concerns around a spike again in long term care homes. What's the single most important thing that you think needs to happen now to protect residents in long term care homes from a second wave?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, the tragedy is we haven't fixed what we know went wrong in the first round. So we still have massive staffing shortages that haven't been addressed in most of the country and infection control. There needs to be infection control, people onsite in every nursing home. Long term care home. We haven't done that. The care operator, home operators, to their credit, have been demanding this for months. And it's not an area the government needs to invest in and it just hasn't done it. We can't have another thousand upon thousands of deaths in our long term care homes.

MG: Last point, as you mentioned, the issue of fatigue. We'rs more than six months into this. This is not going away anytime soon. How do we fight the fatigue that I think we all feel around this?

ANDRE PICARD: I think that's the big, big question now. You know, a lot of people, especially health care workers, especially teachers, are going to. On fumes now in the past week has been a lot of depressing news, and that's made that even worse. I don't know how we do that. I think we have to try and find our victories and celebrate them. You know, that do things. Be willing to change. And I think we have to you know, we've used the word solidarity over the months. I think that's what we need again. We can hunker down and figure out we got this under control the first wave, we can do it with the second wave, but it's going to be even harder.

MG: And if we don't, what's at stake?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, I think it's you know, it's that long term. We want to get this under control so we can get back to having a life, to having an economy, etc. Everybody's in a hurry to do that, but it's you have to not have this false dichotomy. It's not having a good economy or sick people. It's getting the virus under control, so we can have both. We can have a healthy population, a healthy economy.

MG: Andre, great to speak with you, as always. Thank you.

ANDRE PICARD: Thanks Matt.

MG: Andre Picard, Global Mail's health columnist, regular part of our ongoing COVID-19 coverage. Happy to hear from you on this. That issue of those symptoms is something that I think parents are trying to wrap their heads around. If you have any thoughts on that, and perhaps shrinking that list of symptoms, you can get in touch. You can reach us through email, thecurrent@cbc.ca/ Tweet us @TheCurrentCBC or cbc.ca/thecurrent. Click on the contact link on that website. Coming up after your regional update, Harnarayan Singh from Hockey Night in Canada is here with his new memoir. He shares why he's both hopeful and worried about the future of sport, as sport grapples with its role in racial justice. And we'll talk about what Hockey Night in Canada Punjabi has done to bring that game to new communities. I'm Matt Galloway. We're back in 90 seconds. Stay with us.

[Music]

How Harnarayan Singh's hockey obsession shaped his life in small-town Canada

Guests: Harnarayan Singh

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[Clip from Hockey Night in Canada Punjabi]

MG: That's fantastic. Pittsburgh Penguins's Nick Bonino might be the one who scored the Game 1 winning goal of the 2016 Stanley Cup final, but Harnarayan Singh and Hockey Night in Canada Punjabi became the true stars of that night. Since that call, the groundbreaking program has grown in reach and popularity and now Harnarayan Singh is hosting in English as well, including this year's playoffs. And somewhere in the midst of all of this, he found time to write a memoir. It's called One Game at a Time: My Journey from Small-Town Alberta to Hockey's Biggest Stage. Harnarayan Singh joins me now from Calgary. Good morning.

HARNARAYAN SINGH: Good morning, Matt.

MG: That goal call is the kind of thing that I think a lot of commentators over the course of their career, they have those big moments and that's the kind of moment that they dream of. Would you have expected that that would have taken off in the way that it did?

HARNARAYAN SINGH: Not at all. And, you know, it's crazy because it was such a mistake in my notes that became a blessing in disguise, where I wrote Nick Bonino's name down for left wing, centre and right wing. And my colleagues were laughing when they pointed it out to me. And Bonino, Bonino, Bonino is stuck in my head and there's actually a few Bonino calls and that one that really took off that you aired in the Stanley Cup final, the Pittsburgh Penguins fans, which we had developed a cult following throughout those 2016 playoffs, they were demanding another Bonino call like that. Like there was no choice. And so and then, of course, he scored that huge goal in Game 1 of the Stanley Cup finals. So it went from there and it's been an amazing journey since then with Nick Bonino himself. I mean, him and I have a bond that we'll share for the rest of our careers.

MG: And you get invited to their parade when they win the Stanley Cup and what happens?

HARNARAYAN SINGH: 400,000 people are standing there and the players are introduced and myself and my colleagues are brought in on a bus through the parade route. And unbelievably, you know, there's people that are chanting Bonino, Veneno, Veneno, everywhere. But there are signs from Pittsburgh Penguins fans who are not Panjab, who are not Southasian, but they're holding signs saying, we love hockey night Panjabi. And the fact that right after the players in the Stanley Cup is presented in front of the 400,000 screaming fans in downtown Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, we are introduced and I do the Bonino call live to all the fans. And it was just an incredible moment, something you'll never forget. And you know, Mario Lemieux saying that we'll be a part of the Pittsburgh team's family forever and, you know, giving me a hug, forget a handshake. Such such crazy moments. We surprised the team in the dressing room. Just an incredible experience that really felt like a dream.

MG: These are things that one could not have possibly imagined growing up as a kid in the 1980s in Alberta. What was it like in Alberta in the '80s for you?

HARNARAYAN SINGH: It was a very unique experience, because I was the centre of curiosity because as a Sikh, I wear a steel bracelet, I have a turban, and, you know, as a kid, you have different forms of turbans. But I had no example of that because we were the only Sikh family. I just had my dad and my mom. And so, you know, their turbans were my examples. And I went straight to the formal adult turban. I was you know, we're a vegetarian family in the small town of Brooks, where, one of the biggest meatpacking plants in America. And, you know, we listened to different music, we spoke a different language at home. So, when I was growing up there, for me to find commonality between my classmates and I would have taken something pretty drastic. And I was fortunate to have the Oilers and the Flames doing so well and during that stretch where we became hockey fans and my passion and obsession for hockey. When I reflect back, that's what really helped me create a rapport and friendship with classmates and teachers. And I would actually say that my entire experience growing up as such a patriotic Canadian would have been totally and completely different had it not been for the game of hockey.

MG: If you grow up in Alberta in the 1980s and you mentioned the Oilers and the Flames, this is a guy that you will end up hearing.

SOUNDCLIP

[NHL commentary by Ed Whalen]

MG: The late, great Ed Whalen.

[sc].

[NHL commentary by Ed Whalen continued]

[/sc].

MG: Voice of the Calgary Flames for many, many years. You hear his voice, what goes through your mind?

HARNARAYAN SINGH: Yeah, just it's nostalgic. It brings a huge smile to my face because when I grew up watching hockey in Brooks, Alberta, southern Alberta, so we got a lot of flames games. And Ed Whalen, he always started every broadcast with just what you played there: "Hello, hockey fans." And I tell a story in the book about the first time how I met him and I was, you know, between either four or five years old. And we were at the mall and I wasn't wearing a turban, but we do keep our hair long. So I had it tied in a bun. And, you know, he thought that I was a girl. And it really changed how I thought of myself in the public, you know, as a Sikh boy, that you know I needed to make sure that that didn't happen again. And it was just, you know, it's just crazy because the Flames have their media lounge named after him. And he was such a legend. And to be following in those footsteps and becoming a hockey commentator myself and being a part of the broadcast family, like when I was a kid, that was what I was infatuated with and wanted to do. And to be here talking to you today, saying that I am actually doing that is is absolutely, I'm so grateful.

MG: Tell me about Wayne Gretzky. You and your sister, like so many of us at that time, were obsessed with Wayne Gretzky, for obvious reasons. The greatest player on the planet and somebody who seemed to embody in many ways the game. But you're there, you're in Alberta as an Oilers fan. What did Gretzky mean to you?

HARNARAYAN SINGH: You know, it's it's incredible because here I was and my parents did this wonderful job of giving us this balance of teaching us values from our Sikh faith and then also, you know, we were growing up as proud Canadians. And one of the things we were learning in our faith is to be humble and, you know, to put aside your ego. And when you saw the greatest player on Earth, you know, Wayne Gretzky was the epitome of that. He would never take credit for himself. He was always breaking Gordie Howe's records, but he was, as he was breaking them, he was giving Gordie Howe so much respect, he would give his teammates so much credit. And yeah, there's an entire chapter called Wayne's World where it shows the, just the obsession that we had as a family. And I had a shrine in my room for him. And, you know, I think just just who he was and how he carried himself, how he still carries himself as the ambassador of the NHL, it's really exciting. I think the sport is so lucky to have had someone like him at the forefront.

MG: They always say, don't meet your heroes. When you met him, what was he like?

HARNARAYAN SINGH: He was he was almost better than expected because he gave us, my sister and I, he gave us so much respect and time. I mean, we have the privilege of meeting him five times before I became a broadcaster. And, you know, when you're when you're in those situations as a fan, it can go any of which ways. You could leave disappointed. But he always you know, he was always there to sign the autographs. Such wonderful memories. And then meeting him as a broadcaster, too. I just last year in December, I was covering games for the Oilers on a road trip to California and he was there. And we walked over from the hotel to the arena. And, you know, he was so gracious. We chatted the whole way and I told him about the book, I'll be sending him a copy. And, you know, it's surreal in terms of how popular he is, how big of a name he is, that he still takes out the time to treat everyone with respect.

MG: I want to come back to hockey in a moment. But I mean, you've hinted at this in talking about the turbin, in talking about how you were able to try to find a place for yourself in the community that you lived in. A lot of this book in some ways is a bit like kind of the history of the Sikh community in Canada. Why did you want to do that?

HARNARAYAN SINGH: Yeah because, it's a great question, Matt, because I have so much respect for my parents, their generation and past generations who went through so much for a person like me to be even sitting here today. You know, they had to go through the rough time. They had to go through the major racism and try to fight for opportunities. And if they focus so much on just settling their families, like, you know — when I learned that my great grandfather came to Canada in 1987, for me that was revolutionary as a young Canadian, because when people, when I was hearing, you know, racist comments, people yelled out, "Go back to where you came from" and "a rag head" or any of those slanderous terms, I had something that I could say back to them, that my family's history in Canada, you know, may even be, we might have a longer history here than your your family does. And I could say that I'm just as Canadian as you. And that was literal proof. And just just the fact that my parents came here and they were able to maintain their heritage and their faith, despite all the challenges.

MG: What were the barriers that were placed in front of you in getting to the place that you're in right now? I mean, initially you were being encouraged not to go into, for example, sports media.

HARNARAYAN SINGH: Yeah, and I and I guess that would be one of the main obvious blunt ones where, you know, several times in my life I was told that, you know, and it's a question people get asked, kids get asked all the time: What do you want to be when you grow up? And if you say a hockey commentator and you have a turban and you know, it's the 80s, it's the 90s, you might get a laughing response instead of encouragement right away. And I did receive that from other professionals, from some teachers and even people within the CBC. And I don't blame these people because it's, you know, they were, it was a cautionary tale from there end because they didn't want me to be disappointed, and they wanted me to go for something they felt that I would actually have a shot at, and that would be, you know, encouraging me to go behind the scenes for a production side or maybe if there's a shot for you, it would more be in news and not sports. And I don't blame them, but I realize now, just even learning more about what being a person of colour in a visible minority does to your psyche in North America, we've we've been reflecting on it for the last while. And it does plant the seed of doubt in your mind, because it's like when I'm, you know, when I'm there and I have the opportunity, your mind starts playing games with you that you know, are you sure you're good enough to do this? Because I've heard that so many times that you know, that you won't have a place there. No one looks like you. And I know a lot has changed and I'm very, I'm excited to see the change that we're having.

MG: What changed? Because if you don't see yourself, it can be difficult to believe that you're supposed to be there, to your point. But if others don't see people like you there, they don't think that that's a place for you to be in as well. So what changed to get you in a position where you could be not behind the scenes, you're there, visible and doing the job that you wanted to do?

HARNARAYAN SINGH: You know, there are a number of reasons. But the one that's closest to my heart and very near and dear to me is Hockey Night in Canada Punjabi has a big role in changing the mindset of the sports world, especially in Canada, where, you know, you start off as almost a novelty and people are kind of curious. But then then we start realizing that this is growing the game at the grassroots level and instead of it being a want for the community, it's a need. And then you start seeing the impact in the community where I go speak to students and they come and tell me that, you know, we never thought that there would be a role for us on TV. But seeing you on there, it's helping give us inspiration. And that's exactly the message I want to provide. And then seeing that Hockey Night Punjabi can be so successful in terms of the show, in terms of how it's progressed, how it's grown, they impact of that and just furthering the conversation within the hockey world that you can have multicultural programming in different languages and it can be great for the sport. Because we had to fight through that the first how many years. Like, why isn't it just in English or, you know, why are my tax dollars going here? Which wasn't the case. I mean, we have a title sponsor with Chevrolet. There's, you know, it's.

MG: But that's all work that you had to do. You had to go and find the sponsors. I mean, you were paying for your airfare to fly into Toronto to broadcast because the CBC said it didn't have the budget to cover travel for the show. I mean, you had to do a lot of that work yourself to get to the point that you're at right now.

HARNARAYAN SINGH: It was a major roller coaster ride. You're right, Matt, in that sense that there was so much going on behind the scenes all the time. I think it was a learning curve for everybody in those days in 2008 when we started, that you could actually sell advertising specific to a niche South Asian market. And it was something that I'm not sure anybody, even CBC and myself, I don't think we realized how big it would become. But I was willing to take that risk because I was living in Calgary and the show is based in Toronto. I had to do whatever it took to be a part of the show, and if that meant paying for my own flights, that's what I had to do. And no regrets, I didn't tell anybody at the CBC at the time that I was doing that. So I can't blame anybody. But my parents were telling, giving me the encouragement that it'll pay off someday. And I'm very thankful that it did.

MG: What then was it like for you — you were on air, so you didn't see it at the time — when Don Cherry went on his rant about "these people." And this was around who was wearing poppies and who wasn't wearing poppies. This is the rant that ultimately ended his career on Hockey Night in Canada. But he's somebody who people would gather around the television, perhaps in smaller numbers more recently, but it was still a thing. Gather around the television and watch every Saturday night. He goes on this rant, which people said was racist, which people said targeted immigrants. What did it mean for you to see something like that?

HARNARAYAN SINGH: It was a difficult situation, to be honest with you, because Don Cherry was such an icon in the hockey world. But when your own community feels offended, you have to kind of stand up and explain why. And when he mentioned "you people" and he mentioned Mississauga, people did feel singled out. And what it does is create this us versus them type of mentality instead of, you know, if you if you have a if you have a passionate plea that you want people to be wearing poppies more, there's a different way you can go about saying it and that could be more respectful. And what ended up happening is it sparked this conversation as to like, who is a Canadian? Is it just new immigrants who are lacking this understanding, or is it a bigger issue? And then when you do create that us versus them mentality, what happens is, is it creates divisions in society. And all of a sudden, instead of us being united as Canadians, we start looking at ourselves differently just based on how we look. In the end, we're seeing the ramifications of the divisiveness in the south of the border and this type of stuff creeping up here is is really worrisome to me. And so, you know, I had to, my life stopped for about two weeks after that because of the amount of media requests I had. You know, had to talk about it all in depth. But it was an important discussion to have. But the ramifications of everything that took place, we're still seeing that today, especially on social media.

MG: Well, the question ends up being whether hockey has changed as much as we want it to have changed. And even I mean, in the last few weeks and months, you have, after the death of Jacob Blake, leagues had stopped around the world. So the NBA stops its games and players go on strike against play. Happens in the WNBA, happens in Major League Soccer, and the NHL continues to play on. The NHL has a moment of reflection and then the games continue. Eventually, those games were put on hold, but it didn't happen immediately. Does hockey need to catch up in some ways?

HARNARAYAN SINGH: Hockey's in a very unique situation in comparison to the NBA, WNBA, even, you know, Major League Baseball. The difference is, is that hockey at a professional level is much, much less diverse. And so, up until now, it's taken players like Evander Kane and Matt Dumba the, from the Hockey Diversity Alliance, it's been kind of their battle to fight. But I think what we're seeing change is that while this conversation is happening, more and more hockey players are understanding and realizing that this is not just a, you know, a fight for people of colour. This is a human rights issue. And everybody needs to take a stand. And we've started to see that. Tyler Sagan participated in the states. And we've seen, you know, other players like Mark Shively from the Winnipeg Jets and so many others put out statements. And then I think what was really great to see was the unified response from the players when they did end up postponing games. And what gives me hope is that these teams are taking a stand at the risk of alienating some fans, for a lack of a better term, who are ignorant to other peoples, who are not compassionate to other people's situations. And we've seen reports of, you know, some teams in the states who've had people cancel their season tickets because hockey is taking a stand on this. But the fact that the teams and the players in the league are continuing to take a stand, that's what gives me hope that that there is change on the way. Kim Davis being at the NHL is a huge addition by Gary Bettman and everyone there for for hockey to change. And I think the NHL is taking this seriously and sometimes it's better late than never.

MG: Is that the opportunity that sports presents? I mean, people look at sports as a diversion, but it's also a way to bring people together. And because players and announcers have sway in the public to address issues in a different way than perhaps they might be addressed through the news media or something.

HARNARAYAN SINGH: And you're right on that, because normally politics and sports, they haven't really come together. But I think we're in a very historic, monumental time where what the players in the NBA have done, and you see it even now where they're, what they're wearing instead of their names on the backs of their jerseys. This step that has been taken, I don't think there's any way to go back. And I'm happy that there isn't any way to go back, because there is a sentiment out there that, you know, because sports is an escape from reality, it shouldn't collide with politics and we shouldn't marry them together. But this is not politics. This is a human rights issue. This is just about basic respect for one another, and I think we have to have this conversation until we reach a point in society where we learn to celebrate differences, where we learn how to live together harmoniously without hatred. And, you know, it's it's disgusting to me that we still have to educate people out there that, you know, it shouldn't matter what the colour of your skin is. You know, at the end of the day, on the inside, we're all humans together.

MG: I know you do a lot of speaking. What do kids ask you when they meet you?

HARNARAYAN SINGH: Yeah, kids, first of all, you know, it's this curiosity of like, you know, how is it to be at the arena? How is it to be with the players? Or, you know, a lot of times if they're Punjabi kids, they will ask me specifically about something I've said on the air, like Jabaird shot, which is, you know, our hybrid of a slapshot. But it's using Jabaird as a slap to the face and we put it together. And so there's there's a lot of just curiosity. How did you get into it? And, you know, have you met so-and-so player and. But, you know, my message to them is always encouraging in this sense that if I can do it, you can do it. So you will make sure whatever your goal and dream is, you go for it. Because we're so lucky to be in a country that we have those opportunities in front of us.

MG: Can I ask you about something completely different, which is about your love of music and your love of performing music, Sikh music in particular. Tell me a little bit about this.

HARNARAYAN SINGH: Yeah, I had two major passions growing up, and I've never actually married the two together, Intel, this book. And so now you know, all the people who know me from the hockey world, a lot of them have no idea that I have this other life where I I perform sick music, which is cute then and around the world, I've had the opportunity to perform at the Golden Temple, a number at Sorin. So the table of the percussion instrument was is my first passion. And then the harmonium, which is a hand pump to Oregon. That's something else I do as well. And it's been it's been such a inspiration for me because it's a great way to let out my emotions through the hymns and and to learn from them about how to be a better person. And I love the fact that the six faith allows, you know, music to be such a big part of it if you attend any good at the heart of the sick temple. Your music is right away at the forefront of every ceremony in my life. It's made such a difference. It's a lot of fun, but it's also very rewarding.

SOUNDCLIP

[Clip of music by Harnarayan Singh]

MG: What can you tell us about that?

HARNARAYAN SINGH: Yeah. So I at one point in my life with my good friend Gurwinder in Calgary, I actually recorded an album, but I got really busy with Hockey Night in Canada and never got around to finding the time to release it or make a music video. But that was such a cool album because I'm singing in it. I'm also playing the harmonium, also the tabla and all of the keyboarding. So someday there'll be a music video to go with that and we'll put it out there.

MG: Who's going to win the Stanley Cup?

HARNARAYAN SINGH: Dallas seems to be surprising everyone. Tampa Bay is the stronger team. Let's see what happens.

MG: That's a nice fence sitting answer. You don't want to play a favourite just yet.

HARNARAYAN SINGH: Politically correct. Well I'm calling some of the games, right? So I can't really do that.

MG: It's a great book. And I mean, you have an amazing story, but there's so much that's in this book that is about you and and the work that you've done outside of hockey as well. It's a real pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much.

HARNARAYAN SINGH: Really appreciate it, Matt. Thanks.

MG: Harnaryan Singh is co-host and play by play announcer for Hockey Night in Canada Punjabi and host in English for SportsNet for Select National NHL Games. His new memoir is called One Game at a Time: My Journey from Small-Town Alberta to Hockey's Biggest Stage. That is it for The Current for today. Coming up next on your CBC Radio One, it's Q. Tom Power is speaking with the country musician Rissi Palmer, who has a new radio show called, Colour Me Country, looking at the experiences of women of colour in country music. You'll hear that coming up after the CBC News. We'll leave you with a bit more music from Harnarayan Singh's yet to be released album. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current and we'll talk to you tomorrow.

[Music from Harnarayan Singh's unreleased album]

Sept. 22, 2020 episode transcript

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