Responsibility and rehabilitation: What next for the #MeToo conversation?

Guests: Anne Kingston, Neil Boyd

AMT: Well, Harvey Weinstein, Kevin Spacey, Matt Lauer, Louis CK, Albert Schultz, Asia Argento, Aziz Ansari, Brad Kavanaugh, just a sampling of the people who have faced a range of sexual misconduct allegations over the past year. Of course, the outcome for Judge Kavanaugh is still unfolding with both the US Supreme Court nominee and his accusers testifying this week in Washington. The allegations raised in this year of MeToo have ranged from criminal charges of rape and sex trafficking for Harvey Weinstein to what has been called a bad date for Aziz Ansari. And MeToo also opened the floodgates for the not so famous to share stories, millions of them. Stories that often have been hidden or kept secret and were shared for the first time with the hashtag, MeToo. The MeToo movement's come under fire for dredging up peoples actions from decades ago, for conflating serious criminal accusations with inappropriate conduct. Last week the question of redemption was front and centre.

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VOICE: Well I guess it's the season of the comeback. I dont know how we should go about rehabilitating these men or what should really happen to them professionally. What I do know is if you were someone like that and you really wanted to go about trying to reckon with what you've done or apologize, you would probably do something other than write long essay for an elite publication or do a stand-up routine as Louis CK did and make a joke about rape whistles. I think you would have to do better than that.

AMT: The voice of Ruth Spencer, senior editor at The Cut, speaking to me last week in response to two essays. One by former CBC host, Jian Ghomeshi, in the New York Review of Books, the other by American Public Radio host, John Hockenberry, accused of sexual misconduct and the essay published in Harper's magazine. I spoke with Harper's publisher Rick MacArthur.

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VOICE 1: Hockenberry's essay is not just a long defensive behaviour or irrationalization. It's a complicated mix of atonement, regret and an attempt to explore sexual relations between men and women in the modern age and the real problem with what's going on right now is that we're running into a kind of buzz saw of illiberalism, refusal to see another point of view has been erased from the culture.

AMT: Right. Okay so let me just.

VOICE: And he can't work anymore.

AMT: Right. Right. Hold on.

VOICE: And there is something in the tone of voice I hear, in your tone of voice and in the tone of voice of the other person who was on the show. It rises to the level of Soviet style reeducation. These guys have got to be re-educated. They have to show sufficient atonement, remorse, they have to go through some kind of reeducation process and in fact some companies have tried to do this with guys like this.

AMT: Well that was just part of my exchange with Rick MacArthur of Harper's last week and it brings us to today's special edition of The Current because we do want to hear different points of view and we're asking what is next in the MeToo conversation for the victims, for the accused, for the movement itself. We want to hear your thoughts. We are opening up the phone lines in the next half hour. And for the last hour of our program, our lines are already ready to take your calls. You can start calling us now, to get online. The number is 1-888-416-8333. We're asking can there be redemption for the perpetrators? What concerns you about the MeToo movement? Where you want to see the MeToo conversation go from here? How is the MeToo conversation playing out in your life? Let us know. If you have thoughts on any of these, let us know please. Again, the number to call is 1-888-416-8333. Don't forget you can weigh in on Twitter, @TheCurrentCBC. Weigh in on Facebook as well, we're monitoring, we're going to bring those questions in. We're going to start things off with two guests who will be with me throughout our program today. Anne Kingston is a senior writer from Maclean's. She has been covering the MeToo movement from the beginning. She's with me in our studio. Neal Boyd is a professor of criminology at Simon Fraser University. He joins us from Vancouver. Hello. Welcome to both of you.

ANNE KINGSTON: Good morning, Anna Maria.

NEAL BOYD: Good morning.

AMT: Anne Kingston, let's start with you. On October 15th of last year, the actor Alyssa Milano tweeted out the hashtag, MeToo. It was originally created by a Tarana Burke in 2006, but in October of last year, it quickly went viral. What's your sense of the impact of the MeToo movement over this past year?

AK: Okay. That is a huge question and I hope we're going to.

AMT: We're going to try to get to this, yeah.

AK: Because it is complicated. I think what we have learned, I mean we've seen so much in the last year, but I think what MeToo has highlighted most broadly, is the need for systemic change. I think the fact that it began with Harvey Weinstein and we have to remember that it did not exist in a vacuum. It came on the heels of discussion of you know rape culture, campus rape, the women's march, a lot of you know the Ghomeshi trial, the Cosby trial, a lot of these things were percolating. So what we saw, however, over the last year is just how endemic and systemic this idea of power dynamics within the workforce specifically, how sexualized violence is part of that we've learned about how many people have been harboring stories that have not been discussed and why that has been the case. So we're just at the beginning I think of this what I see as a social revolution potentially. There's been a lot of anger about it, but I think that what we have seen is the fact that the minority of men are actually you know rapists or harassers in the workplace, but what we're seeing is that they have allowed to get away with it systemically for decades.

AMT: Neil Boyd, I'm wondering what you think, how profoundly has MeToo impacted our culture?

NB: I would agree with what Anne has said. I will add that I think context, Donald Trump, you know here's a man who was elected president after admitting to sexually assaulting women. His treatment of women is appalling and he's become the president of the United States. I think that that's something in the background that has mobilized people. You know we have to live with this person as the president of what is said to be the most powerful country in the world. I think at the same time, you know we've seen slips here and there. We've seen that we have sexual harassment and sexual assault and sometimes we go beyond those categories and when we go beyond those categories it's not clear what we're complaining about or what we ought to be investigating, but I would agree that MeToo has been a positive force. That sexual assault is essentially a male problem, probably has always been that way and we're seeing women willing to come forward and I see that as a positive.

AMT: You, Neil, began sitting on sexual harassment committees at Simon Frasier University years ago. How have you seen that discussion change over the years?

NB: Well I think when I began at the university in the late 1970s, a lot of male faculty saw students, undergraduate and graduate, as sexual opportunities. And so when we finally had this sexual harassment committee, I thought this was a very positive thing that we were going to root out these kinds of issues. I should say that it has changed dramatically over the past 40 years. That we don't have that kind of culture anymore, but what disturbed me was that when we've heard these cases, they weren't always the sorts of cases of people I hoped would come forward. They were often people who had grudges. You know in one particular case, I remember a person who had slept with a faculty member over the course of her degree and you know recognize that was a mistake and so is bringing a case forward and there were times in which I didn't know whether I had more contempt for the person who was complaining or for the person who had to respond to the complaint. I should say at the same time, there were many very legitimate cases of harassment and I do think it's a good idea that we had that in place and we have it in place today.

AK: I think that actually that's an interesting point. The whole issue of workplace harassment has been put in the spotlight, but when you say that you didn't know whether you had more contempt for the person coming forward, what does that look like for you? What was the reason for that?

NB: I think contempt is probably too strong a word. It was just that I thought, we were spending a lot of time when really both of you have engaged in behavior that demeans you and that we, if we had reasonable rules, as we now do. I should add that in the mid-80s I went to the Senate committee at the University asking that we have a rule that faculty members not be allowed to sleep with their graduate students, who they were supervising. And I was voted down 18 to 2, only a philosophy faculty member agreed with me, but of course now, we do have a rule. Everything's changed and that's why I see the last 40 years as representing a time in which tremendous strides forward have been accomplished by women and the feminist movement can take a lot of credit for that. You have all sorts of areas that we could talk about reproductive freedom, marriage breakdown and much more equal distribution.

AK: I think one of the interesting aspects of MeToo is that also we're recognizing that this is not a problem for women to fix. That it is something that involves, you know, because it is essentially about a power imbalance societally and when you get right down to it, that it's necessary for everybody to be part of this conversation. It's not just about women to come forward, but also for men to sort of support and recognize perhaps their own behaviours in the past.

NB: Absolutely.

AMT: Let me let me bring in another clip of Rick MacArthur here, the publisher of Harper's magazine. He defended the decision in his interview with me to publish a lengthy essay by former public radio host, John Hockenberry, who was accused of sexual misconduct. This is another point Rick MacArthur made.

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VOICE: The MeToo movement has had a tendency, an unfortunate tendency, to lump together everybody who from Harvey Weinstein to the guy who looked at you funny in the lunchroom at the office canteen or who maybe sent you a suggestive message. There is a distinction to be made and the response in many cases has been disproportionate.

AMT: Anne Kingston.

AK: I mean that's at a rot. I think, first of all, I mean that's known as distinction denialism. I think that Bill Maher talked about that. Look, women do understand the difference between a look that they may not appreciate and being violently sexually assaulted. I think conflating all of those things is a very convenient way not to have this conversation or to reduce it or to ridicule it as some sort of a moral panic. People do understand the difference between a pat on the behind and something more insidious that is well, a pat on the behind is literally criminal, but let's just say it's not going to be pursued in the courts. So I do think this is a huge idea that it's all one thing is a problem, but what we do need to talk about more specifically is how these behaviours, inappropriate behaviours, particularly in the workplace, are the sum total of power imbalances in the workplace of a culture of disrespect and also, you know absolute the objectification of women. This idea of entitlement, that we need, is sort of at the root of a lot of this stuff.

AMT: And Neil Boyd, do you want to speak to the concerns raised about conflating events?

NB: Well, I think there's a range of behaviours and I have seen a couple of cases in which I wonder why a person has lost his job, for example, the Ansari case is an example of that. I, from what I could see, this was a case in which two people engaged in some kind of consensual oral sex. He wanted to go little further. She didn't. You know, it wasn't harassment. It wasn't sexual assault. He suffered consequences. I mean he probably behaved badly and I think he almost implied that, I would go back to the point that Anee was making which is that the conversation between men and women is critical here. That's what we need to have. I read just yesterday Jian Ghomeshi's article and I was kind of disappointed. At the end of it, you know, it's all about what a wonderful guy he is. He's now traveling in Paris, listening to a woman on a train. He's no longer this selfish person and of course, many of the issues I would have wanted him to address, which were acts of physical violence, are not addressed at all.

AMT: So Neil, let me ask you, cause when people talk about conflating, is there a danger we conflate the other way. That we have lumped really what sexual misconduct, sexual assault, all of that into and we've just said, well that's just inappropriate. That's no big deal. Like maybe the conflation has actually happened the other way.

NB: I'm not quite sure you mean.

AMT: Well because people are saying, people are conflating a side ways look with rape. And maybe for too long we've actually treated sexual assault, that and real inappropriate conduct as nothing more than a sideways look.

NB: Well there's certainly some truth to that. At the same time, I do know of men who I regard as principled and reasonable people, who are concerned that things may get to a point where a sideways look is deemed to be actionable.

AK: Do you really believe that though?

NB: Well, I've been on both sides of this. I had to go to the police back in the 1990s to have a woman stop harassing me. And for many, many months I was told by my colleagues, oh women never lie about these things. You know this was an issue in which the president of the university lost his job because he believed that the swollen coach had been harassing a young woman. In fact, it turned out to be the other way. She was ultimately convicted of further harassment about a year later. So I see this as complex, I don't see this as just a question of male wrongdoing, it can cut both ways. Do women sometimes lie? Yes. The evidence is overwhelming. Do women mostly tell the truth? Absolutely.

AK: I think, well I want to go back to the Ansari example. I think one of the concerns that was raised at the beginning of MeToo and it continued with this idea that this would become some sort of "witch hunt," that individual men would see their careers ruined. And I think the case of Ansari's is an interesting one because it wasn't within the realm of an actual you know assault that could be you know a Weinstein style assault, it was a date, but Ansari's identity was very much based on him being a sensitive enlightened guy. And what happened on this date ran contrary to that, but if you actually look at what happened, he didn't lose his job. He laid low for a while and he's back on the comedy circuit being embraced. Chris Rock did the last show with him at the same club Louis CK showed up. So I think that you know this idea that if you actually look and see men who lost their job, that did not happen. People you know, there have been investigations, people are back on the job. So we're trying to figure out this calibration, but this idea that these guys are being targeted is perhaps overstated.

AMT: You know I'm just going to break it here because I've got just a couple of things I want to say about people calling in, but you guys are raising things that I want to hear from our listeners as we move forward on what they think of what you're saying. Anne Kingston, senior writer with Macleans, Neal Boyd, professor of criminology at Simon Fraser University, are staying with me for the next hour, while we take your calls. Just a note, you've likely seen the pictures of the devastating effects of two tornadoes, not one, but two, that hit the Ottawa region on Friday. Dozens of houses ripped apart, trees toppled onto roads, commercial dumpsters tossed into a nearby front line. They knocked out power to tens of thousands of people and put four people in hospital. There were still in hospital four people as of Sunday. Tomorrow on The Current, our producer Kristin Nelson is going to introduce us to people in paths of those tornadoes trying to pick up the pieces now. Got a little clip here of Laurel Wingrove and Alex Carlson from Dunrobin, which was really hit hard. The home they were renting was hit by tornadoes and yesterday they were inside trying to assess the damage.

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VOICE 1: I think I'm kind of still in shock, like I don't know. It's like it feels a little bit hard to breathe, but at the same time, I'm like kind of numbed out to everything.

VOICE 2: There's definitely you know certain things missing, but they really could be anywhere. So, but you know the fact that we have anything at this point and the fact we weren't in there, kind of glass half full I guess, way of looking at it, but you know our bedroom's upstairs and office is upstairs and there's no upstairs anymore. So these are dumpsters that came from way over there. So they were flying through the air and landed you know 10 feet. Some of them went over the house and they're about a thousand pounds each, so it would have been like an asteroid coming in.

AMT: So tomorrow we are on that story. Kristin Nelson already on that story. We'll bring it to you tomorrow. She'll have more stories of people who felt the impact of not one, but two severe powerful storms. Two tornadoes in the Ottawa region. Stay with us. The CBC News is next and then we're going to hear your calls about MeToo. We want to hear how you think MeToo conversation should move forward and how it's playing out in your life. You can call us, 1-888-416-8333. Go to Twitter, we are @TheCurrentCBC. Go to Facebook. Send your questions, if you want or your statements. This is a special edition of The Current. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. Anne Kingston and Neil Boyd will be with me for the next hour. Stay with us.

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AMT: Hello. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to a special edition of The Current.

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AMT: As we near the one year anniversary of MeToo, we're asking what's next for this movement? We want to share your thoughts and we want to hear your thoughts and over the next hour we are opening the phone lines to hear from you. Our questions: Where do you want to see the MeToo conversation go? What concerns you about the movement? How is the MeToo conversation playing out in your life? Let us know. You can call us at 1-888-416-333 or tune into our Facebook live between 9 and 10 a.m. Eastern Time.

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AMT: To help guide us through this, I'm joined by Anne Kingston, senior writer for Macleans magazine. She's been covering the MeToo movement from the beginning. She's with me in our Toronto studio. And Neal Boyd is a professor of criminology at Simon Fraser University. He is in our Vancouver studio. Welcome back to both of you. We were talking, before we broke for the news, and I had two clips I wanted to play with some different views and this will get our listeners thinking too as they call in and I know we've got a few people already waiting to weigh in. Last week, actor Sean Penn weighed in on MeToo. This is some of what he had to say.

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VOICE: The spirit of much of what has been the MeToo movement is to divide men and women. There is a common sense that is not represented at all in the discussion, when it comes to the media discussion of it. The discussion where if Sean Penn says this, so and so is going to attack him for saying this because of that. I don't want it to be a trend and I'm very suspicious of a movement that gets glommed onto in great stridency and rage and without nuance.

AMT: OK. That's Sean Penn. I want you to hear another clip. We talk about the role of victims in this conversation. Many women have come forward in the past year to speak about what they've been through. In the U.S. dozens of young female gymnasts who say they were assaulted by their team Dr. Larry Nassar, over the course of 20 years, spoke out and we spoke to one of Nassar's victims on The Current, Rachael Denhollander. This is what she said about what it was like to go public with her story.

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VOICE: It was hellish. It was actually terrible. And I think that's something that the people that surround predators need to understand, when you put victims in a place where they have to release every shot privacy and every shred of dignity to make their voice heard, where they have to fight for themselves because no one else is going to protect them, the effects of that are extremely serious. It is a revictimizing. It is retraumitizing and it should not have to be done that way.

AMT: I'm going to get two brief thoughts from Anne and Neil and then I'm going to go to our lines. Anne Kingston, what are you thinking?

AK: Well I mean I'm processing both of those things and it's interesting listening to Sean Penn. He's using a few kind of words, coded words, that we've heard a lot. Strident, rage, as typifying the MeToo movement and also the need for nuance. And of course, I mean we need to calibrate this conversation, it's a really complicated one. But this idea that it comes from a place of stridency or rage is probably true. And that's not, I mean those are words that are used against women. You know women shouldn't be angry, they shouldn't be strident. We hear that you know that's a term used in terms of feminism as well. But listening to the second the second interview, the gymnast, is just heart rending and explains exactly why people are strident and filled with rage. This has been percolating within the culture. You know the stuff that people have had to put up with, the difficulty of coming forward and the fact that MeToo represented what was perceived to be the beginning of a safe space, to be believed. Not to be, not to assume that everything that they wouldn't be questioned or that there wouldn't be any sort of due diligence applied, that's necessary, but just simply that they would not be shunned or rejected. And I think listening, those two clips are very powerful, next to one another.

AMT: Neil.

NB: Well I think the second clip is particularly interesting in that she's talking about why it's so difficult to come forward. And many women have experienced these kinds of things and don't want to come forward, dont want to speak about it publicly. They deal with it in different ways. What the MeToo movement does is to give them some sense that there's support, but I suspect that most women who experience these kinds of things and that's probably easily a majority of women, are going to be reluctant to talk publicly for the kinds of reasons that this person Rachael set out. And that's I think that's just a reality. I don't know how we get around that. Again, I come back to the need for men and women to talk about these issues and for women to make their voices clear, whenever possible.

AMT: OK. So let's hear some voices. Again, you can call us at 1-888-416-8333. Jamie is on a line from Lincoln, New Brunswick. Hi.

VOICE 1: Hi there.

AMT: Hi. Would do you want to tell us?

VOICE 1: I just, I'm probably, I'm not extreme in my opinions in almost any topic. And I kind of would just want to see people take the middle of the road on this. Because I do agree with both the quotes Sean Penn and Rachael, as well, but there's a middle road. And I think sometimes the pendulum is in everything, it has to swing too far in the opposite direction before it will eventually come to balance, but I do see, I guess in my opinion, I think there are a lot of accusations that are made that cause a great deal of harm. And I would certainly want anybody to report a violent sexual assault, but I think we need to start with our young girls, young women, so that they don't become victims. So they have the right and the confidence to if someone says something inappropriate to them, to stand up and say, hey just a second. That's not right. And for some reason they don't seem to be able to do that and then they become a victim and I just hate the idea that they'll go through life you know thinking that they didn't have the right to speak up.

AMT: Do you think we need to also then talk to young men, so that they understand.

VOICE 1: Absolutely. That conversation that you know can start, not typically, but it should be built in to the upbringing of our kids, that girls and boys need to respect each other.

AMT: Do you think, Jamie, do you think the MeToo movement is going to facilitate that conversation more than before?

VOICE 1: Well, it's a good question. The pendulum probably will swing back into a place of balance eventually, but in the meantime, I just it's hard to see some of the things that are brought out when that I would say are borderline what I would call borderline assault. If you're on a date with someone or if you, I mean I do know women who have you know they've had sexual encounters to further their own goals, and then if it doesn't work then you know they come back and feel like a victim, which is not right. I see it the opposite way too. I've seen women in the workplace over the years that they're not predators, but they you know made advances towards younger workers, you know younger men on the job, but again, I've lived through the 50s and 60s and 70s and 80s and 90s and here I am today. So it's just my looking back on things and certainly hope that people will come to a point where you would never ever leave, particularly it is sexual assault, but it's more child abuse for a coach to be a predator with their team. Yeah.

AMT: Jamie thank you for your thoughts.

VOICE 1: You're very welcome. Enjoy the show.

AMT: Leesha is on the phone from Bridgewater, Nova Scotia. Hi Leesha.

VOICE 2: Hi. Good morning.

AMT: Where do you want to see the MeToo conversation go next?

VOICE 2: Alright. Well first of all, I think the healing process will take a while, but I think that's the important part. I'm 64 and it's only in the last year, and I have to admit because of the MeToo movement, that I no longer felt ashamed to admit things that have happened to me in my past that totally affected my way of living. And really to be quite honest, I can honestly say that now after all these years after being raped by a teacher at 15, not knowing what sex was about, because I'm of that generation that parents didn't tell you, that led to two attempts of suicide because my mother did say, you know if a man cever touches you before you get married, you were damaged goods. Well I figured I was damaged goods, even to God because I was also born Catholic. Then that led to a lifetime of domestic abuse because I was led to follow the fluxion of this damaged goods, I am not good enough to expect anything good. Well I'm 64 and what I did for my two sons so they did not to come like that. During my first marriage that was very violent, my youngest son, he was punching my skirt and I thought it was cute and I said what are you doing? And he said I'm punching mommy like daddy does. And that was the moment when I realized that if I did not do something drastic, my two boys would grow up to be monstrous. Then later on, after outside that marriage, and still within a dysfunctional marriage, my boys came back and said ew cooties. A girl tried to kiss me. And I sat them both down and I said listen this world is made up of 50 percent girls and 50 percent boys and one day you're going to have very strong wonderful female friends. And in that manner I brought them up to respect them and also I taught them about sex at the very beginning as a very respectful relationship between female and male. Now this MeToo movement is bringing up the rage, I understand that and what people have to understand too is that it's been so bottled up that when you vomit it out, it comes out as rage. And you have to wait for the storm to subside and to respect the fact that you have to look past the rage. We do have a problem. It's age is old, but we still have it and it's ruined women's lives. It takes, some women never get over it. Some women die in the streets. Some women are drug addicts. I count myself blessed that I'm still alive and very functional and I feel, I finally feel and women who are older should be able to take the young women to the side and say listen, this is what happens if you're doing this and this is what happens if you're wearing that. We no longer seem to allow wisdom of the ages to teach the young.

AMT: OK. It's really important to hear your voice, Leesha. Thank you.

VOICE 2: You're very welcome.

AMT: I'm just going to pick up on what she said with my two guests, Anne Kingston and Neal Boyd. Started when she was 15, sexual assault by a teacher and follows her through her life. She's 64 now.

AK: That is, it was very difficult to hear that call and it's wonderful to hear that she is you know able to reflect and reframe what happened, but it's horrible that that did happen to her and the idea of a coach or a teacher abusing his power and then the expectation that that is normal behaviour. And it just obviously perpetuates the normalization within the household even and I think what we're seeing with MeToo is that that is writ large societally. That this kind of stuff has to stop and this idea, I mean she put it very eloquently about the bottled up the rage and the way that it comes out and that it has come out and I don't know you know the expectation that woman should expect this behaviour it has to end or internalize it as somehow their fault or something they have to fix.

AMT: Neil Boyd, you know one of the things we should point out is sometimes we are criticized for talking solely about the abuse against women, but we know of course lots of young boys abused as children. She mentions her religion, also by religious leaders, but the fact, she makes it really clear what followed her through and what she's tried to make sure doesn't continue to follow through the generations behind her.

NB: Yeah, I think so. What also really stuck out for me was the lack of a conversation around sexuality and the idea that you know if you had sex prior to marriage, you're damaged goods. As a culture we don't buy into that idea too much anymore, but there's still not a lot of conversation within families and within our culture about sexuality and witness for example, the recent decision of the Ford government in Ontario to try to pretend that we haven't changed as a culture in relation to sexuality. To clamp down on those kinds of discussions on that kind of conversation.

AK: I think though that there is a shame that's almost hardwired into the culture. It's hardwired into the criminal justice system and it's also hardwired into the way people, women particularly, why they don’t come forward. We're starting to see that with this new hashtag, why I didn't report.

AMT: I'm going to go to the phones again. Judy from Halifax is on the line. Hi Judy. Are you there Judy?

VOICE 3: Yeah. Here I am.

AMT: Hi. Thanks for calling. Where do you want to see the MeToo conversation go next?

VOICE 3: Well, I'd like to see it go into the workplace because rather than looking at things individually, I'm on the steering committee of a new organization in Nova Scotia called, Equity Watch. And what we do is we fight bullying and discrimination and fight for employment equity and what we see in the workplace, we see it time after time, is that the men are allowed to keep their jobs, generally the harassers and the women have to exit. They have to leave their job, they're fired for making trouble, they're not respected, they have to leave. And so we end up with situations where women have had jobs, such as the one case we just fought last week with a female firefighter. She had a job that paid $40 or more an hour, with a career, with benefits, with a pension, and she ended up by the only thing she can get now was working in a drugstore at one of the chains, for minimum wage. So we have a situation in which women are constantly looked upon as troublesome, trouble makers and so on. They eventually have to leave their jobs or their point blank fired for making trouble in this province.

AMT: It's interesting because of course the argument has been that that men in the high profile cases leave, but you're pointing out that in regular daily life, it's still going on that the women leave.

VOICE 3: Oh it's absolutely that the women leave. Of course you'll always find a certain percentage of men who are forced out, the Jian Ghomeshis. OK, they're forced out of a very big and lucrative career and so on, but when we're looking at day to day things, from firefighters, we have secretaries, we have people who work for travel agencies, who are assaulted when they're on a travel trip with a co-worker. We have all of this coming at us all the time, we have all kinds of open cases. And one of the ways that we fight this is rather than looking at things individually, we're looking at systemic locks to what's happening in the situation. And so what we're doing here is we are fighting the Human Rights Commission in Nova Scotia because the Human Rights Commission refuse to take a lot of these cases. Our line is do your job to the Human Rights Commission, but they take about 90 cases and they have about 2300 complaints registered every year. Now not all of course are part of MeToo or part of sexual assault, but a lot of sex discrimination.

AMT: OK. Thank you for your call, Judy. Thank you very much.

VOICE 3: You're welcome. Bye.

AMT: Brian From East Preston is on the line. Nova Scotia. Hi Brian.

VOICE 4: Good morning, Anna Maria. How are you?

AMT: I'm well. I'm curious to know what you're thinking. Where do you want to see the MeToo conversation go next?

VOICE 4: I was thinking that it should be top down. Like you know there is no mention of the biggest perpetrators of this problem like Donald Trump. I can go to the list like Roy Moore, now Brett Kavanaugh, Bill Clinton, Harvey Weinstein, the bishops, cardinals and priests. None of this has been mentioned. And I think if we deal with it being a top down, it clears the way as opposed to you know the butt slappers being the bottom up, which calcifies the past forward. So it becomes more difficult for the MeToo movement to progress. The bottom up as I would I think it would be able to do it was from top down.

AMT: So it's interesting, why do you think that you know despite all the accusations against President Trump, that he seems untouchable on this? What's that telling you?

VOICE 4: Well I don't think it's untouchable. When you go top down it you expose a lot of others that are equally if not more powerful. And I think you know the problem is there's a lot of complicity with the whole idea of being able to protect Trump. So I don't think it's all women or all men, incumbents of both that are protecting Trump. Unfortunately people like Trump are in power and do what they have done and can be complicit to others doing what they're you know alleged to have done like you know Brett Kavanaugh. So I don't think it is anyone simple answer why Trump is able to do and get away with it, but if it was such that was to be dealt with top down, it would be a lot easier for the movement to have an easier process of getting rid of those perpetrators. Like even the Pope himself is adverse to admitting the guilt of the cardinals. So I think you kind of take this bull by the horns to be honest with you.

AMT: OK. Well thank you for your thoughts Brian.

VOICE 4: Thank you.

AMT: Kathleen Goldhar, our executive producer, is with us as well looking at some of the comments made on Facebook. What are you seeing, Kathleen?

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: Well, not surprising, social media, the conversation is active there. So Megan MacIntyre on Facebook writes us, "I think redemption involves taking ownership of the behaviour and actively trying to contribute to the advancement of true equality. All too often the perpetrators write a half-assed apology, claiming that they understand the power dynamic, that they didn't understand the power dynamic or a self-pitying essay outlining how hard it's been for them since things came out and then expect things to go back to status quo." We also got a tweet from Jonathan Kay, who told us that, "This is worse than biased, amateurish, when the host of The Current loses her composure and argues with people who she thinks are on the wrong side of history. I know that plays well on Twitter and from the podium at Toronto journo galas, but it's college radio." Want to comment?

AMT: No I don't. Do you want to comment on Anne Kingston?

AK: Well I find, I presume that's a reference to Anna Maria's interview with Rick McMaster.

KG: Seems to be.

AMT: MacArthur.

AK: I'm sorry, MacArthur. Well it seems as though, I listened to that interview and what struck me about it was the fact that he was talking over the host of the program. He was not respectful. You know accuse me of bias, John K, but I found Anna Maria very patient with him and I think that he was incredibly rude and also didn't seem to quite get what the conversation was about. He was talking about Soviet style reeducation. There's nothing wrong with reeducation, Soviet style idea and talking about Anna Maria's tone and so forth, it was almost one step away from saying she was shrill and hysterical.

KG: Well if you want to keep up the conversation on social media, anybody including John K, you can tweet us @TheCurrentCBC or on Facebook at CBC The Current. And I'll be back Anna Maria with more comments.

AMT: Okay, thank you Kathleen Goldhar. And Anne Kingston and Neil Boyd are still with me, but I want to get another guest in first. Danel is in Fredericton junction in New Brunswick. Hi Danel.

VOICE 5: Hi Anna Maria. Thank you so much for hearing me and making a platform for our voices, men and women alike.

AMT: Where do you want to see the MeToo conversation go next?

VOICE 5: Well, I feel I'm coming from two sides and maybe that's the balance. So am I a, I have throughout my entire life, a victim in one regard or another. I was never a very, I've always been a very modest woman and girl throughout, but I've somehow had a pretty face and so actually where I experienced a lot of my harassment, let's say, was in my workplace. So having a male boss. Let's say in the serving industry, there were some weird requests for me to you know perform for specific guests or customers really. And then you know winks and walking away and they're all talking and looking at you. This is very bold, but I actually was raped at a very young age as well, so just hanging out with friends and male audeince and I feel where this MeToo movement really needs to go is to the root. Why is there this almost a lack of boundaries and respect for our bodies and other people's bodies. I'm also coming from a place where I fear we are building up too much fear. So if we're, there's a quote that says, which wolf will you feed? And I feel that with starting let's say a public movement.

AMT: Danel, we're running out of time. Don't go away, we have a 90 second break, I want to finish the conversation with you. So just stay with us.

VOICE 5: Okay thank you.

AMT: We've got a short break coming up. This is The Current. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. Stay with us.

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AMT: Danel is on the phone from Fredericton Junction, New Brunswick and we were just having this conversation. Danel, I want to pick up on something you said. You talked about, you asked why is there a lack of respect for other people's bodies, other people? Keep talking.

VOICE 5: Yeah, I definitely feel kind of circling around that fear again that we've developed this shame culture and whether it's shaming other people or shaming ourselves, there's lack of conversation in education around sex and even empowering sex to not just be this private, I'm getting tricky, but private like we don’t talk about it to more people talking about it and explaining, empowering individuals. I really liked what one woman said about educating her daughters you know to know how to protect themselves. We also need to educate our men how to protect themselves, but also how to respectfully engage with someone else in a proper, again respectful, modest way. Going back to the movement because I feel that that's where the fear is gathering. I'm not saying movements aren't important and integral, but I feel the public movements what they end up doing is starting a belief and in turn, people are programmed with that belief. So the situation that I'm dealing with right now is my nephew, who is just coming out of high school and he's afraid to express himself and to you know start coursing and engaging it with women because he doesn't know what is appropriate and what isn't appropriate. So I feel where this MeToo moment, if we could cut the shame and the public shame because again that's just creating more fear. And in turn, I feel the end result is people are going to back into the closet. So women are coming up. Men are being the ones exposed. Now men are going to go to the closet. Could that not potentially cause more ugliness, if that makes sense.

AMT: Danel, thank you for calling in and thank you for your thoughts. I'm going to pick that up with our guests here.

VOICE 5: Okay.

AMT: Thank you very much, Danel. Neil Boyd, what are you thinking as you listen to Danel?

NB: Well I'm thinking she's making good points. I'm thinking there's some concern about overdoing things about people feeling under attack. At the same time I can't get away from feeling that this has been an important moment. And the reality is that this is a small minority of men who behave this way. I've been in university administration for a good deal of the 40 years that I've been at Simon Fraser and I've seen significant changes and you know it's just not something today that we come across a great deal, this kind of a problem. And so when I heard for example earlier, woman talking about workplace and the difficulties in that workplace and the extent to which women weren't believed, in the university context, one might even argue that it goes a little bit in the opposite direction.

AMT: Anne Kingston?

AK: Well there are a lot of things I thought listening to that call. It was very difficult to hear her talk about her nephew and not understanding basic kind of guidelines within courtship. And I mean that speaks to a lack of understanding of consent. You know this is somebody who is in high school, who should be kind of something that is taught throughout education, very pointedly. Now also I mean I think the whole idea of this structural issue, that we need to be talking about, is also something interesting and sort of that it is interesting that Weinstein I mean was a shaper of the culture, but very much, I think it exploded because Weinstein was a workplace abuser, sort of on a grand scale. A big bold faced scale. But at the same time, we saw how careers can be sidelined. We saw how structures work to protect and those are the things that we need to continue. I heard Neil talk about MeToo as it was and I think it's very much an ongoing sort of movement as well.

AMT: I want to go to someone else right now. Duanne Street is projects coordinator with the Fish Food and Allied Workers Union and she's in St. John's. Hi.

VOICE 6: Good morning.

AMT: So first of all, you're with the Fish Food and Allied Workers Union, so my first question to you is do your members, do the workers represented by your union feel they can raise their voices on this issue?

VOICE 6: I like to think so and you know we made a lot of ground in the past few years with our women's advocate program. Of course, we are affiliated with Unifor and Unifor International. And the women's advocate program has helped create those spaces where women can come forward and have somebody to speak to, know how to access the resources that they need if they do find themselves victimized. And we've actually negotiated a fair number of women's advocates in a lot of our workplaces. So we're very proud of that.

AMT: So where do you think the movement should go next?

VOICE 6: Well you know, MeToo was such a watershed moment and I'm so hesitant to use the word anniversary when I talk about it. Like it's something to be celebrated because on one hand you know we are celebrating the fact that when the hashtag started to show up, I think as women, we all felt a space opening and we all kind of set back and said okay here it comes. You know the women are not going to be silent anymore because at the end of the day around 7 out of 10 women who find themselves victims of sexual assault, do not report. And a year later we are seeing a new hashtag show up, which is an unfortunate result of what's going on south of the border with Brett Kavanaugh. And that hashtag is why I didn't report. And I just want to go back to something that one of your previous caller had said that we need to teach young girls how to not become victims. And that's such a troubling and problematic statement because I feel we've been teaching young girls and women to hold that chain and hold that blame and how to not become victims for far to long. The amount of women who come forward and say I did say no and I did say this is not right and I did everything I could, but I was still victimized. So we tried to tell women that we need to teach our young girls how to not become victims. We're perpetuating that behaviour. And what was said earlier, I think it was Anne who said you know, it starts in schools and we start teaching consent and boundaries and respect and we need to be teaching our young boys and our young girls how important that issue of consent is and we need to stop apologizing. We need to stop apologizing for taking up space, for what we wore, for how much we drank and there are so many complexities in this conversation. But women keep getting revictimized in this process and we see so many people coming forward and with social media, I have often been known to say social media is the scourge of the earth, but social media has played such a huge role in this, in solidarity and support, where women can come forward and know, Im not alone. And I've noticed in my circles, how unfortunate it is right now that the conversation around a Friday night glass of wine is no longer about how your week went. It's your experiences and how you can relate to what you've seen or who has come forward and the allegations and you know I've experienced that too. And to be able to sit around, whether you're sitting behind your phone or your computer and click on a hashtag and see that you're not alone, I think that's played such a huge role in empowering women to come forward and helping take down some of those barriers and let us step out of the boxes that kept us quiet.

AMT: Duanne, thank you. You've raised some very good points. Thank you very much. I'm going to pick up on something you said within Neil Boyd. Neil you know we've heard criticism of MeToo because it doesn't, it doesn't give due process. But what Duanne is raising there and what others have raised is that there hasn't been due process for women who have raised their voices, who have said something's happened to them. We know this, we know from the big Globe and Mail takeout by Robyn Doolittle that the number of police complaints that just disappeared into thin air. We know all the rape kits that never got tested in the United States. So when we look at that and we look at the movement, where do you see that moving forward?

NB: Well, that's a good question. You know there are those kinds of examples and instances in which women ought to have been taken more seriously, but if we step back and ask what ultimately is the solution? Massive numbers of people charged with either sexual assault or harassment? I don't think that's going to ultimately be as helpful as much better communication between men and women. I agree with the caller that the kind of solidarity that is offered by the MeToo hashtag or the IDidn'tReport hashtag, those can be very positive and there are of course many examples of police in the past and probably in the not so distant past, not taking these claims seriously enough. But my experience as well is that significant sexual assaults and having worked with police, the police I know, would take those very seriously.

AMT: Well, you know, we can go to the States for an example. The whole idea of what you can report. You look at the case that's playing out with Judge Kavanaugh was many, many years ago, but you look at the case of the young woman who was sexually assaulted and there was a Stanford swim champ who was found guilty of sexual assault. He got six months. That wasn't a case of failing to report, two tourists came by and were actually traumatized by what they saw. The police came in. But in terms of due process, six months. So and that's another country and another law, I get it, but you're a professor of criminology and I'm just wondering, you know in criminal law and criminology and in law, with so many women coming through the system now, do you think the laws might change? Do you think that the MeToo movement will lead to some kind of institutional change, even in terms of prosecution?

NB: Well, if you look at the kinds of sentences that are handed out for people who rob banks or who commit serious property crime, they are always much more substantial than the kinds of sentences that are handed down for people who sexually assault, in a serious way, sexually assault women. I think historically, if you look back and you compare the kinds of sentences that exist in relation to property and contrast those with the kinds of sentences that exist in relation to sexual assault, there are some rather staggering differences. That is true, not only of the United States, but of Canada historically and to a large extent in the present, as well. So there is a very real sense in which women are not regarded in terms of penalties to be imposed in quite a serious way as property violation.

AMT: Anne?

AK: Well I think that you know I think we have seen in this country that there are huge judicial problems and I think simply having a woman judge is not necessarily the answer. We've seen sort of bad calls or calls that have been criticised from female judges as well. It is I keep going back to this, it is a systemic problem that we should be sort looking at more broadly as opposed to sort of an individual grievance case. But I think I mean concerned when you know Neil was talking about sort of significant sexual assaults or you know those being identified, but we are dealing and I think what MeToo has identified is a spectrum of behavior. That where tolerances need to be changed societally, whether it's in the criminal courts or within the workplace.

AMT: We have time for a few more calls. Let's hear from Jim in Saint John, New Brunswick. Hi Jim.

VOICE 7: How are you?

AMT: Where do you think the MeToo conversation should go next?

VOICE 7: I think the biggest thing we need to do is men and women have to work collectively. I think MeToo and this is not the intention of course, we're actually putting up more fences and men and women are getting divided on the topic. And really abuse, whether it's against women or children or anyone, can't stop unless we as a society, men and women, everyone works together to stop it. So I think we need to go into our schools and to teach children what abuse is. What do you do when you see it, whether it's your mother or your sister or your girlfriend and your best friend. We need to tell people how you act. Boys and girls, men and women have to see abuse as the same thing. Right now we have different interpretations of what it is and until we work together, until we talk to each other like people and not sex, I don't care if you're man or woman, I talk to you the same way. And we need to do that. Right now I think MeToo is doing great things, but it's also divinding our society, so we can't let that happen either.

AMT: So what do you think about then, redemption like when someone is identified, what's the process for them to redeem themselves?

VOICE 7: Well I think they should be forced to go through training or whatever is required, so cannot happen again. And of course, if it's abuse is abuse, if it's physical than that's like assault and there are charges. But we have to treat this seriously. I think women have been very keen on this topic, but I don't think men have been as keen and I think we need to be because unfortunately, most abuse against women is done by men. So men need to get involved in this to afect change, if we are the ones who commit most of the abuse.

AMT: Jim. Thank you for your call, thank you for sharing those thoughts with us.

VOICE 7: Take care.

AMT: You Take care as well. That's Jim in Saint John's, New Brunswick. Kathleen what are you reading?

KG: Some interesting stuff. So on Twitter, Barbara Low, is picking up from our last calls says, "Is redemption of these predators really necessary? I mean it suggests that there are no talented, non-misogynistic men to take their place. How much talent is going to waste out there? I say make room for decent men and then we can all move along. #MeToo." Interesting comment. From Shelley Perry we have, "I want the MeToo movement to affect change in the process for both men and women who come forward with accusations. The onus is on the victim to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that a crime has been committed. This is why people don't come forward and when they do, they end up being traumatized even further." And then lastly, to speak to that, somebody on Twitter says, "Pass a law that sexual aggression must be reported, no later than say seven years. Otherwise, it's an offence to do so."

AMT: Okay.

AK: Wow, well don't we know. I mean we've learned certain things I think beyond you know the last year that within the court system, people don't come forward for a lot of different reasons.

AMT: Well we've heard that today.

AK: That's right. And the idea that you put a statute, I mean one of the good things about Canada is there is no statute of limitations on coming forward and we've heard in the States right now, 35 years previously, this has a huge imprint and it's interesting Kavanaugh says he doesn't remember. It's quite possible he doesn't, but she remembers and this idea of redemption, we're focusing on that. Let's talk about the damage that's been done on the other side as well.

AMT: Eileen is on the line from Halifax. Hi Eileen.

VOICE 8: Hello, Anna Maria. I was really agreeing with you about the sideways look and I sort of see this as a fourth wave of suffragette movement because it is coming forward some things from the past and I've got two examples of the failure to report. My dentist from 6, I'm 16, now I'm sitting in the chair and all of a sudden the dental hygienist is not there and his hands are being wiped all over my chest. I'm 36, I'm at a party and I won't say the name, but he takes his hands all over my chest. You don't report these things. You leave from the party. You tell your mother, she doesn't believe you. You bring three sweaters and a friend and you never see the dentist again. And you just walk away and I see this as a fourth movement of suffragette because it's women speaking up and yes of course, the men have every right to say that it's not true, but we have the right to also speak.

AMT: Do you wish you had spoken?

VOICE 8: I think it was about power for the dentist. I often wish I had spoken at the party, but I didn't, I just walked away. I'm a strong woman, so I have in the past had other things happen that I've spoken up about, but those two things were just instantaneous examples. He knew what I meant when I brought, when I wore three sweaters and I brought a friend and she sat there. That was my way of saying it, but no, I can understand totally. I was 16. I'm 67. I haven't really told many people about this and I'm just saying that yes, failure to report is a very real and I see this as a fourth wave of feminism. Because not before, did we talk about it. However, I also don't want to see men and women not speak to each other. Men be afraid to take up a conversation, show interest in a woman. That's also a reality of this because you go into bars and I don't think the people know how to react anymore to each other, possibly because of this, possibly because of the fear of it, but it needs to be an open conversation. And I think it just continues to need to be going forward as it is.

AMT: And I think it's really important that you bring up the story of when you were 16 because you remember it very well and again, that's when these things happen you don't forget.

VOICE 8: No, I was with my dentist since sixth and my mother, he had helped my mother discover that she had cancer. So he was like a God to her and she did not believe me, but I was old enough to you know wear three sweaters, bring a friend and sit there and then that was the last time I saw him. Walk away from the party at 33. No one sees this person do that to me, but I know he did it. I told my husband, a couple of years later I think, but know you just you. This is a fourth wave of feminism, I really believe that, but I don't want men to be afraid to talk to women at the same time.

AMT: Eileen, thank you for call.

VOICE 8: You're quite welcome. Bye.

AMT: Bye bye. Justin is in Halifax. Hi Justin.

VOICE 9: Hi there.

AMT: Where do you want to see the conversation with MeToo go next?

VOICE 9: Well I was listening to some of the interm people that have spoken so far and a lot of good points. I'd like to see it not be about one gender or another or sex or another and be about victims and abusers. I was telling your prep staff earlier that I was in an eight year long abusive relationship with a woman, sexually, emotionally and physically. And I you know I was trying to seek help. Avalon center is a center here, I was denied assistance there. I was denied. The only assistance in all of Nova Scotia that you're advised of is for men that were abusers. So I've had to go this alone, dealing with the shame of feeling emasculated, being told that what I was saying was unlikely by most my female friends, that I've now lost because I couldn't deal with their ability to look the other way, when they would be on immediate #MeToo-ing everything to death online and then me suffering in front of them and then saying well it's not, it's not like this. It's not like Jian Ghomeshi or whatever, people making excuses for abuse, you know, just because I'm a man. I'm not a small man. I am above six feet, but you know, it can happen to anybody, if you stay silent.

AMT: Did you ever get to the point where you wanted to or thought you should call police?

VOICE 9: You know, this is the sad part and this is what dealing with my therapist and my current wife has helped. I guess I always try to find the best in somebody and not even necessarily the best, I always try to find out why and I gave her, I mean this was five years into the relationship, but this was bad. I gave her another three years to try to you know work it out with her and that's my bad habit. It doesn't make what she did acceptable at all, but at no point did I ever think to do it and now she's in another relationship. She has a child. I wouldn't want to ruin that kid's future because what's the point? And I know it's, what I went through is probably not even remotely close with a lot of women have gone through, but the pain is sore. I mean as I'm speaking to you, I'm on the edge of tears just thinking about it and hand shaking holding the phone. And this is where I am almost a decade later. And you know if it wasn't for my wife being supportive, I don't think I would have gone through this. It wasn't just my wife, but my close male friends. You know, I guess this topic has felt me very betrayed in the sense that it's not about, it feels like it's about schadenfreude. It feels about getting back at people. It feels like it's we got to up in the apple cart to change everything and everything will be fantastic when women are on top. Well I've been on the other side of that conversation and it's awful and I just would really like to start seeing it that we hold people accountable that need to be held accountable. We don't go looking under you know matteresses and flip over everything to find, well maybe they are dirty when everything else points the other way. We need to just be fair.

AMT: Justin, we're almost out of time, but thank you for your call. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this.

VOICE 9: Thank you.

AMT: I'm going to just get some comments from you guys briefly cause we're almost out of time and he raises some interesting points.

AK: Yeah, I think this is an important call because it sort of identifies something we haven't talked about. He spoke about a lack of resources that are available to men for starters in the sense of shame he felt. He talked about feeling emasculated and we need to talk about sort of this idea of masculinity in the culture. I think that we saw, we've seen with Harvey Weinstein, sort of the alpha male, the bully male, who's venerated. We saw it in Canada at the Canadian Olympic Committee who was seen by 100, more than 100 people of bullying and assault. And this kind of behaviour sort of seen as a norm in the power leaders. And I think the idea of how we define masculinity is part of this conversation too.

AMT: Neil Boyd?

NB: Well, yeah I agree with that. Add to that too that there are circumstances in which people dont want to come forward and for good reason and because courts and tribunals impose harms to individuals that may be greater than the harms of an event itself. And I can't think of how many women I've talked to who have discussed experiencing bad behaviour, assaults, I mean a range of activities at the hands of men who wouldn't dream of coming forward. They've dealt with it in different ways. Sometimes they've been able to shame those individuals. Sometimes they've been able to have constructive conversations with those people. So I would hate to think that the way that the wave of the MeToo movement going forward is we're going to have to get a lot more court time, get a lot more tribunal time and then we'll you know sort of set things straight, the scales will tip in the right direction.

AMT: Ok. We have to leave it there. Anne Kingston and Neil Boyd, thanks for your time today, for being part of this special edition of The Current. And thank you for your phone calls. We couldn't get them all in, but we will continue. Stay with Radio One for Q, where actor and VR video game developer, Elijah Wood, talks to host, Tom Power about his latest creation. If you missed part of today's special edition, we're posting it on our website. You can catch highlights on our podcast or on the CBC Radio app. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. Thanks for calling in and thank you for listening to this special edition of The Current. Again, if you want to weigh in, you can tweet us at Twitter, find us on Facebook. Go to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. Click on the Contact link. It's a conversation we will continue as the days go on time. Thanks for listening to The Current.

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The Current Transcript for September 24, 2018

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Responsibility and rehabilitation: What next for the #MeToo conversation?

Sept 24, 2018 episode transcript

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