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The Current Transcript for November 12, 2024

Host: Matt Galloway

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: People are being intimidated, and fear is being used to extort them from money. And some of that's followed up with arson shootings, or destruction of property.

MATT GALLOWAY: Shootings, robberies at gunpoint, threats of kidnapping and demands for huge sums of money. Members of South Asian communities in Ontario, Alberta and British Columbia have been living in fear. The targets of extortion and violence at home and at work. The Prime Minister has pointed the finger at the Indian government. In 30 minutes, our documentary on those threats and the people here on the receiving end of them. Also this morning, he is known as Shotgun Willie, the Red-Headed Stranger. And at 91, the great Willie Nelson shows no signs of slowing down.

SOUNDCLIP

WILLIE NELSON: I've learned that we're all pretty much alike. And what makes me and you laugh or cry. Chances are, it'll make everyone else laugh or cry. We all have basically the same emotions.

MATT GALLOWAY: The singer who has moved from country to reggae and just about every genre in between, has just released his 153rd album. In an hour, The Meaning of Willie Nelson through the eyes of a journalist who has ranked every one of those records and created a podcast featuring superfans like Sheryl Crow and Brené Brown. We begin, though, with calls for a national inquiry into the deaths of indigenous people in Canada at the hands of police. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway, and this is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Indigenous people killed by police

Guests: Nadalie Saddleback, Cindy Woodhouse Nepinak, Kent Roach

MG: Since August, 10 Indigenous people have been killed during interactions with police in this country. Jon Wells was 42 when he died after Calgary police restrained him after an altercation at a hotel. Police had him face down on the floor in handcuffs and leg restraints and with a spit hood on. Approximately seven minutes later, Jon Wells was dead. He was unarmed. The Alberta Serious Incident Response Team is investigating his death. His family wants answers and accountability. This is his sister, Leslie Wells.

SOUNDCLIP

LESLIE WELLS: His last words being 'I don't want to die,' you know? And knowing that from this report, he was complying and there was nowhere did it say that he was being violent to make him out to be this very violent person, that the end result had to be death. It was just so maddening.

MG: Hoss Lightning was 15 years old when he was fatally shot by the RCMP in August. He'd called 911 for help that day and told a dispatcher he was being followed by people trying to kill him. An hour later, he ended up in a confrontation with two RCMP officers in a field in Wetaskiwin, Alberta, 60 kilometres south of Edmonton. That incident is also currently under investigation by the Alberta Serious Incident Response Team. Nadalie Saddleback is Hoss Lightning's grandmother and she is in Wetaskiwin, Alberta. Nadalie, good morning.

NADALIE SADDLEBACK: Good morning.

MG: I'm sorry for your loss.

NADALIE SADDLEBACK: Thank you.

MG: Can you tell me a little bit about Hoss and who he was?

NADALIE SADDLEBACK: He was special to me as his grandma. He was phoning me daily and, you know, just to chat with me, see how I was, mine, because, you know, I had went through surgery earlier in the year, so he was always checking up on me and telling me he loved me. He was sweet that way.

MG: Can you take me back to the night of the 30th of August? What was happening then?

NADALIE SADDLEBACK: Well, earlier that day I had him here and later that evening, I want to say maybe 10:30 or so, he come and said goodnight to me and said, I love you. And he says 'I'm going to go find my mom.' And I assumed his mom was next door, which is not that far away, far less than a five-minute walk. So I just said, 'Okay, I'll see you tomorrow. Goodnight. Love you.' And. And then woke up the next morning and I went to work and noticed right away after I got dressed, picked up my phone and realised I was missing all these calls and texts from him and. I just got on the phone right away dialling his number. No call, no answer. So and I assume, you know, he's has his mom next door. He's okay. So I went about my day at work. And I got I came home about 3:30. I had to come and pick up something from my house here, and I was going to go right back to work when I got a call. And she goes, 'Okay, there's someone that wants to see you here.' So when I got home, it turned out to be ASIRT, 'Come to my truck.' Started talking to me right away about there was an incident last night involving my grandson, Hoss. And he, when he showed me, I asked him what happened and he, they sickly told me that he was killed in Wetaskiwin and that's, I didn't, I don't remember all the details that, of everything that happened in that moment. But I remember looking at his picture on his phone and just breaking down.

MG: ASIRT is the Alberta Serious Incident Response team. That's the folks who are investigating this.

NADALIE SADDLEBACK: Yes, It's been less than 90 days and it's still so fresh. You know, it was like a big blur. It's like a, like a bad dream.

MG: What sort of, when, when you saw Hoss, what was, what was his mental health like? What sort of state was, was he in when you saw him?

NADALIE SADDLEBACK: I can tell you he did have some mental issues going on. Like, he was in care. He, he was in a temporary care because back in October, he was feeling suicidal. You know, things are not going the way they should be going with his home, his mother. And he was just going through a whole lot of issues. And I was going through my cancer scare and then, my operation. And I really thought him being in the spot he was, he would be safe. You know, you'd get that counselling, he'd get the schooling that he should have been in. He always wanted to come home and home to him was here with me.

MG: What do you want to come out of this investigation that, that a search is involved in?

NADALIE SADDLEBACK: You know, I want the truth. I want, I want to see everything. I want to see what they're looking at. I want to, I want to see, I want to be involved in, you know? I want to, I haven't even, I don't even know I have myself. A lot of my questions haven't even been answered as to as to where is this officer, you know, did, is he on leave? Did he, you know, did he resign? Is he, was he able to just go to work the next day and carry on with his life while he took my grandson's?

MG: How do you want Hoss to be remembered?

NADALIE SADDLEBACK: I want him to be remembered as a young. He wasn't a child. He was a youth, you know, that reached out for help. And didn't get it the way he should have. The, he and that even that it's, I kind of blame myself because that at a young age them living in it in the city, I used to, you know, 'If anything goes wrong, you call the police.' You know, I, I feel like I taught them that. And for this to happen, it was just, it's heartbreaking. And still a lot of pain is still here. And, I guess you remember him as the friendly boy and then, God is, like, taken way too soon.

MG: I really do appreciate you talking to us. And take care of yourself.

NADALIE SADDLEBACK: Okay. Thank you.

MG: Nadalie Saddleback is Hoss Lightning's grandmother. She is in Wetaskiwin, Alberta. In a statement, an RCMP spokesperson said the force expresses its sincerest condolences to those impacted by these recent tragedies and said they can't comment on individual cases because they are currently being investigated by independent agencies like the Alberta Serious Incident Response Team.

MG: Cindy Woodhouse Nepinak is the Assembly of First Nations National Chief. National Chief, good morning to you.

CINDY WOODHOUSE NEPINAK: Good morning.

MG: Ten Indigenous people are dead in this country after altercations with police. How do you make sense of that number?

CINDY WOODHOUSE NEPINAK: Look, it just, it's, it's one too many. My condolences go out to the mother and the grandmother who we just heard from, you know, the Wells family and as well Hoss's family, and. And, of course, we see the twins and in northern Canada last week. And it's just, there's just too many deaths in this country of, of First Nations, Inuit people and indigenous people. And I know that we've been experiencing a lot of strong emotions these past few months as the news has been coming out about First Nations people who've died from interactions with police. Last month, I met with the family of Jon Wells, who was a member of the Kainai Blood Tribe here in Alberta, the Assembly of First Nations Committee. We passed a resolution that supports the family's calls for a public inquiry into the incident that caused Jon Wells' death and for a number of legislative policy reform. It's vitally important that we continue to fight for more First Nations police service to keep our community safe. First Nations police services have demonstrated for decades that it is an essential service that provides the health and well-being of First Nations who they serve. I think I'll also say that when we have First Nations police services, statistically, statistics show. Compared to other major mainstream so-called mainstream entities, they don't kill First Nations people. And so, we need to begin to do the critical work of protecting First Nations men and boys. We also must address the gaps in the justice system that place them at risk.

MG: What do you think is going on here? I mean, Hoss Lightning's. There's a family member of his who had said that in some ways the police don't need to reach for the gun as quickly as they are. When it comes to 10 indigenous people dead in the short period of time because of these interactions with police, what do you think is going on?

CINDY WOODHOUSE NEPINAK: You know what? It's racism. It's, it's a whole it's a whole lot of things. We've seen it in the Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls report. We've also at the AFN, we've also passed a resolution because we want to work, we're calling on the government to establish a working group to address also the missing and murdered indigenous men and boys. Through this resolution, we are advocating for equitable resources for missing and murdered indigenous men and boys. So, we've, we've got the MMIWG report which hasn't been touched. And I think that too many times, again, we work, we focus on this work. We haven't done one for our men and boys and we have to get down to get that work done. We need that working group established and the Assembly of First Nations. We are committed to advocating for reforms that prioritize safety and justice for First Nations as directed by First Nations in the Assembly. So, this includes reforming failing systems and replacing them with structures that serve and protect First Nations people. It's too many times. On top of that, too many enforcement people that kill, they get a slap on the wrist. And yet we have people that are murdered, 10 people that have been murdered and, maybe they don't call it that themselves.

MG: So you're using that word very deliberately, Colleen, saying that these.

CINDY WOODHOUSE NEPINAK: Have been murdered. Well, they've been murdered. Right. We, it's, it's awful to do that to people. Can you imagine how these look, we've just heard from the families, how they're feeling. And when you kill someone, I don't know what else you're going to call it. Murder is murder.

MG: You met with the Public Safety minister, Dominic LeBlanc, in September. What did you tell him?

CINDY WOODHOUSE NEPINAK: Well, we had agreed to a working group because we have to start figuring out what's happening in this country and shining a light on some of the, some of these issues. And how do we stop? How do we stop this from happening, these murders from happening? And it's just too many times like, you can't you can't just do that to people. Anybody, any Canadian shouldn't have to go through that. But it's alarming when it's First Nations people over and over and over again. I don't hear this happening to, to other, other people in this country, nor do I want to.

MG: We asked to speak with Dominic LeBlanc. He wasn't available, but a spokesperson sent us a statement that reads in part, 'Since 2018, we, being the federal government, have invested significantly to bolster the First Nations and Inuit policing program. We also remain committed to introducing legislation recognising First Nations police services as essential services.' Are you satisfied with what the Federal Government has done thus far?

CINDY WOODHOUSE NEPINAK: Well, no, absolutely not. I was with the First Nations Police Association last week, and they don't have a law. They're trying their best. They used to have 56 forces. They're now down to 34. Obviously, there's a push down for First Nations policing services. There's a you know, there's and so, I mean, we have a lot of work to do in this country. It's so disheartening to see that. And then, we've, you know, we have a resolution as well that calls on for, you know, to push for essential service. We don't even have that yet. And to push for making sure that we talk about jurisdiction and move towards action. So, I know that these aren't easy conversations to have. But, you know, when we look at things like the Truth and Reconciliation report, the MMIWG Report, the, you know, the late Murray Sinclair, who we just, who just left us days ago, a lot of his work on the Aboriginal Justice inquiry, like I encourage all Canadians to read all of these reports and walk with us and help us in in our fight for, for justice and equality in our in our own country. And we, you know, we need the support and help of Canadians.

MG: I'll let you go. But just finally, if the change that you're calling for doesn't happen, what do you think is at stake? Again, you are these, these incidents are being investigated by investigating forces. But you're already you're deliberately saying and intentionally saying that this is these are murders. So if [CINDY WOODHOUSE NEPINAK: Well] [cross-talk], if the change doesn't happen, what do you think? Well, what's what do you think is at stake?

CINDY WOODHOUSE NEPINAK: Well, then they'll be more. Then they'll be more murders on First Nations people. I don't know how else to put it. When you kill somebody, when you kill someone, you're murdering someone, right? I don't know. What, like, you can't justify that. How can you justify that doing that to somebody?

MG: National Chief, we'll leave it there. I'm glad to have you as part of this conversation. Thank you very much.

CINDY WOODHOUSE NEPINAK: Thank you.

MG: Cindy Woodhouse Nepinak is the Assembly of First Nations National Chief.

MG: Kent Roach is a professor of law at the University of Toronto, author of 'Canadian Policing: Why and How It Must Change.' Kent, good morning to you.

KENT ROACH: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What do you make of what you've heard from the National Chief?

KENT ROACH: Well, I mean, this is a problem that has been happening for way too long. So, I mean, let's think. If 10 relatives of the cabinet had died since August, I think we would see more movement than we're seeing now.

MG: What does it tell you about the state of policing? I ask you this as somebody who has studied this for years, the state of policing in this country when it comes to interacting with indigenous communities in particular?

KENT ROACH: Well, I mean, we need to take a good hard look at use of force protocols and we need more research on it because this is creating a situation where people who are in crisis are dying unnecessarily. And unfortunately, the federal minister seems to say, well, we can just rely upon the police fixing their own house. But I think it's too late for that. And of course, four of these cases involve the RCMP. So, that's the federal government's own house.

MG: The National Chief, when asked what was going on more broadly when it came to these ten cases, not the specifics, but broadly said in part, this is about racism.

KENT ROACH: Yes. I mean, I think that that is right. It's not an accident that 10 people, I mean, six people died over 11 days, right? As we were kind of transitioning out of sum-, summer. It's just horrific. And of course, we've seen this with Rodney Levi, Chantel Moore and others. So in B.C., they have been calling for an inquiry since '22, 2022. From 2013 to 2017, 127 people died in police custody. Almost 30% of those people are indigenous. So, this is a national crisis [cross-talk]

MG: Sorry, continue. Go ahead.

KENT ROACH: No, no, I was just saying, Australia way back in 1991, did a national inquiry. And I think some of the problem here is the old federal provincial run-around that I think, you know, an inquiry would need both levels of government, but we can do that. We saw that with the Mass Casualty Commission. So, why this isn't being treated as the mass casualty event was being treated, I think is, you know, I think we know the answer to that.

MG: Hoss Lightning's grandmother says that Hoss was in mental distress before he was shot by police. There are conversations that are happening broadly across this country around police and ways to change police interaction with those who may be in mental distress. Perhaps it's not a police force that arrives. Perhaps it's a mobile crisis intervention team, for example. Is that something that needs to be taken into consideration here?

KENT ROACH: Absolutely. I mean, there is mobile health on Metaskiwis. There was, in the Rodney Levi case, but they're under-resourced. We seem to always find the money for the police. But when we have innovations that can actually avoid these, they're always running on, you know, two inadequate funds that have to be renewed every year. And so often, the mental health nurses and other people just don't have the resources to get there to help these people. And, you know, again, this, this is not a good result for the police. The police that were involved with this. I'm sure, I mean, they're obviously not suffering the way that the families are, but I don't think that they just walk away from this. And, of course, this builds up worse relations between indigenous people and the police, both based on fear, both based on lack of understanding. And so, something has to change.

MG: What would you just finally, what would be different if, for example, there were more First Nations police services, indigenous-led forces? What would that do in the communities, do you think?

KENT ROACH: I think it would help. I mean, I agree with the Grand Chief that their record is best. But I also think that the feds and the provinces have to rethink policing. So, we don't just want indigenous police services, we want indigenous health services and indigenous mentoring. All of the things that Hoss Lightning Saddleback's grandmother was talking about. She ended in saying he was a 15-year-old who needed help. That help was not likely to come from the RCMP, but what did come from the RCMP was the end of a 15-year-old's life.

MG: Are you confident that, just finally, briefly, that there is the momentum for that change? I mean, these aren't numbers. These are people.

KENT ROACH: No, I mean, I'm, unfortunately, I'm not confident most of these deaths occurred a couple of months ago before the weather got cold. And I come back to if there were 10 relatives of cabinet ministers that were killed in in this way, what would we be doing? We would not be doing nothing, which is more or less what we're doing now.

MG: Kent, good to talk to you again. Thank you very much.

KENT ROACH: You're welcome.

MG: Kent Roach is a professor of law at the University of Toronto.

MG: Your CBC News is coming up next. And then...

SOUNDCLIP

JAS ARORA: And he goes, I heard that they want to kill you and they need $2 million from you. But the sad thing is they will kidnap you. [Music: Theme fading in] They will get the money from you, but they also will kill you.

MG: Business owners and their families are afraid for their lives. Amid a wave of extortion, threats and violence targeting South Asian businesses in Canada. Coming up, our documentary about some of the people living through that fear in British Columbia. That's coming up in six minutes. My name's Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current on CBC Radio and the CBC Listen app. Stay with us.

[Music: Theme]

Extortion threats targeting South Asians

Guest: Sohrab Sandhu

MG: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current. A special announcement from us here at The Current. Hello, Saskatoon. We are bringing our program to you on the evening of November the 26th, I'll be hosting a live taping of this program at the Broadway Theatre in Saskatoon. We have some amazing guests lined up. The bestselling authors, Yann Martel and Alice Kuipers will be there talking about their latest projects and why they love their town. We will also be joined on stage by Farideh, who has been blowing up online with tunes like this.

[Music: Female Body by Farideh]

MG: It's going to be great. We also will be talking about the growing popularity of Indigenous-led tourism. I'll be speaking with Saskatoon's new mayor. We have no idea who that new mayor will be because the election is tomorrow. Mystery guest will be unveiled perhaps on the stage there. Also performing throughout the show, fresh off his tour of grain elevators across the prairies. Jeffery Straker. Tickets are free. You have to register in advance. My only bit of advice would be don't wait. Our last show in Winnipeg sold out in a little over an hour. You can find all the details on our website. Go to CBC.ca/thecurrent. A little bit of Jeffery Straker for you. This is a tune called Some Say It's Just a Sky.

[Music: Some Say It's Just a Sky by Jeffery Straker]

MG: Just a little taste of Jeffery Straker. He'll be joining us on stage in Saskatoon. That event happens on the 26th of November. You can find full information at CBC.ca/thecurrent. Reserve your tickets there. We had so much fun when we did a live show in Winnipeg. This will be great. Looking forward to seeing you there. This is indeed The Current on CBC Radio. My name's Matt Galloway.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: It is obvious that the government of India made a fundamental error in thinking that they could engage in supporting criminal activity against Canadians here on Canadian soil, whether it be murders or extortion or other violent acts. It is absolutely unacceptable.

MG: It was a very serious allegation from Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. He made it in October, just hours after the RCMP issued a similar warning. The Mounties announced that they had learned about significant threats to the safety and security of Canadians, particularly in South Asian communities. They are accusing Indian government officials of being linked to murders, extortion and intimidation in Canada. Members of the pro-Khalistan movement were specifically mentioned, but many other members of South Asian communities have been dealing with extortion attempts for almost two years. Police say they are investigating dozens of cases across this country. The CBC's Sohrab Sandhu has been talking to people affected in British Columbia and brings us this documentary, Our House.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound of dogs barking]

SOHRAB SANDHU: It was early in the morning of August 23rd. Security cameras at Jass Arora's House in Abbotsford, B.C. record what was going on outside? [sounds of glass breaking] Someone is throwing glass bottles over the gate towards his house.

JAS ARORA: And my oldest son came and he called me outside. He goes 'Dad, Mom, come outside. Somebody. This is happening.'

SOHRAB SANDHU: He stepped outside to a thick smell of gasoline.

JAS ARORA: There's too much glass and gas and smell. It was so scary, like...

SOHRAB SANDHU: There was broken glass everywhere.

JAS ARORA: My wife said, No, no, go inside right away. Just don't do anything. Don't look at it. Please, Please shut down the light. Call police immediately.

SOHRAB SANDHU: Jas called 911.

JAS ARORA: It was a nightmare. Shaking. What are you, kids are shaking. And I was talking to a police officer and a phone rings.

SOHRAB SANDHU: It was a man speaking in Punjabi. He was demanding money and there was a deadline.

JAS ARORA: And they're saying now you have 72 hours. [SOHRAB SANDHU: 72 hours for what?] To kill me. It was a really hard time.

SOHRAB SANDHU: It's still difficult for Jass to talk about that night and the next 72 hours. Police advised him to move to a hotel, but he refused.

JAS ARORA: They can come home anytime. They can come to a hotel any time. Like, they know everything about me.

SOHRAB SANDHU: But Jass did give clear instructions to his family.

JAS ARORA: It was so scary. Like, we were sleeping in different rooms and asking if something showed up. How are we going to act? It just doesn't matter who come or not. You want to sleep on, be quiet. If they needed me, and...

SOHRAB SANDHU: If anyone came for him, the rest of the family was to stay quiet and hide.

JAS ARORA: I went through a lot.

SOHRAB SANDHU: A lot because this is just the latest threat. Jass owns a busy trucking company. The head office is here in Abbotsford with satellite offices in Calgary and India. There's a shop out back where trucks are being fixed. Dozens of rigs are parked in the yard and across the road. The office looks a bit like a modular home from the outside. Inside is a labyrinth of rooms with offices for dispatch and safety.

[Sohrab at Jass's office]

NICOLE NASS: Hi, how are you?

SOHRAB SANDHU: We are here for Jass.

NICOLE NASS: Jass? Your name?

JAS ARORA: Sohrab.

NICOLE NASS: Sohrab.

[Back to the narration]

SOHRAB SANDHU: Nicole Nass leads me into Jass's office.

[Nicole speaking]

NICOLE NASS: I wear a lot of hats, I guess. I wear, I do everything for him.

[Back to the narration]

SOHRAB SANDHU: Her desk is about a metre from Jass's. She sits just below a wall of screens. They are from the security cameras around the building.

[Jass speaking]

JAS ARORA: Now, we have more cameras and more security. And it's life been changed. Honestly, only thing is we don't have a camera in the washroom.

NICOLE NASS: I mean, it's obviously nerve-wracking, but I feel okay. Like I'm here. It's like family here. I feel...

[Back to the narration]

SOHRAB SANDHU: Nerve-racking because Nicole is well aware of the threats that her boss has been getting for a year and a half.

[Nicole speaking]

NICOLE NASS: I think it's not fair for me being a Canadian and born here. I think it's really unfair what's happening. I think that...

[Back to Sohrab speaking]

SOHRAB SANDHU: She was there when he got the first threat in the spring of 2023.

JAS ARORA: But she could not understand because it was in Punjabi.

SOHRAB SANDHU: A man just knew through his business, came to his office to deliver it in person.

[Jass speaking again]

JAS ARORA: And he goes, Jass, I heard that they want to kill you and they will need $2 million from you. But the sad thing is they will kidnap you. They will get the money from you, but they also will kill you.

SOHRAB SANDHU: Jass contacted the police.

JAS ARORA: What they did is make a report and give me a hand on me. The police file number. Nothing else.

SOHRAB SANDHU: He says he hasn't had any updates on that file since. But the threats didn't stop. A month later, this call over WhatsApp.

Speaker 6: [Strange call over WhatsApp in Punjabi]

JAS ARORA: He was like mafia or gangster, and he was talking 'We have people all over the world. You gotta pay the money or we'll see. We'll call you again.'

SOHRAB SANDHU: The caller was demanding $1 million.

[Call in foreign language on WhatsApp continues.]

SOHRAB SANDHU: 'We will get our money,' the caller said. 'The day we shoot, don't keep your family at home. Then, don't say we did not tell you.'

[Call continues]

SOHRAB SANDHU: The man said he didn't care if Jass recorded the call. Again, Jass reported it to the police, but the threats kept coming. He stopped answering. So, they called his wife.

JAS ARORA: Said, 'Ask him to pick up the phone. Otherwise, we know your son was your son. We will kill him. Our people are there and we will kill your husband.'

SOHRAB SANDHU: Jas stopped going out to public events. He even stopped going to the gym. He kept his kids home from school, and now he wants them to move out of the house for their safety.

JAS ARORA: Honestly, I was concerned. I will pay if I have money, but I don't have money. And I like, I don't feel like paying someone, that it's hard-working money. How can you give to someone? Right? So, but sometime my family is saying that better to pay off to moving on to your next chapter. [SOHRAB SANDHU: So, you did have those conversations like, that maybe we should pay.] Yeah, yeah.

SOHRAB SANDHU: Instead of paying, Jass decided to speak out in the media and at public forums.

[Satish Kumar speaking]

SOHRAB SANDHU: Satish Kumar organised one here in the banquet hall he owns in Surrey, B.C.

SOHRAB SANDHU: Today, it's getting decorated with crystal chandeliers and huge bouquets of white silk flowers for a reception.

SATISH KUMAR: Okay, I have the parachute.

SOHRAB SANDHU: But in January, this is where he invited police, politicians and victims to talk about extortions in the South Asian community.

JAS ARORA: I know when I did them, people say, what the hell are you doing? It's natural. [VOICE: Even the public officials were scared to come?] Yep, [inaudible] scared to come. And we were scared that time, everybody.

SOHRAB SANDHU: People were scared. But still, hundreds of people showed up.

JAS ARORA: We're gonna talk, right?

SATISH KUMAR: Yeah, I think it will be a little quieter inside.

[cross-talk]

SOHRAB SANDHU: Satish sits in his small office tucked in the corner of the banquet hall. Satish is also the president of Vedic Hindu Cultural Society. He says he was hearing about hundreds of cases of extortion.

JAS ARORA: People got letters, phone calls, but nobody reported to the police. Venue reportedly played the only 5 to 6 cases I've reported.

SOHRAB SANDHU: His own son's house was shot at in December 2023.

JAS ARORA: My son was sleeping there, but they don't know what's going on. When they break up in the morning. Then they came to know you and like their garage were shot. You know, 13, 14 bullets, you know, they shot together in the garage and some up and some down, you know.

SOHRAB SANDHU: They reported it to the police.

JAS ARORA: Even till September, Nothing. No information. How did that?

SOHRAB SANDHU: He's frustrated by the lack of progress in investigations like the one at his son's house.

JAS ARORA: Police are trying. But nor is there so far on the police side.

VOICE: So you're doing a documentary and it's related to the extortions occurring across the country?

JAS ARORA: Across the country, yes.

VOICE: All right. I'll do my best to give you the answers.

SOHRAB SANDHU: In September, I met with Superintendent Adam McIntosh. He's in charge of the RCMP's National Coordination and Support team or NCST.

ADAM MACINTOSH: Federal policing recognise that this was beyond just a local issue. It was more of a national issue.

SOHRAB SANDHU: The NCST was formed at the start of 2024 after a number of extortions targeting South-Asian communities were reported in Alberta, Ontario and B.C..

ADAM MACINTOSH: People are being intimidated and fear is being used to extort them from money. And some of that's followed up with arson shootings or destruction of property. It's certainly causing fear in the community, and that's how they're able to continue to move forward because their objective is to make money.

SOHRAB SANDHU: In Edmonton, police are investigating more than 40 incidents where South-Asian business owners were targeted. And in July, a breakthrough. Six people were arrested and are facing more than 50 charges.

ADAM MACINTOSH: When you put all of us together and working the way that we're working, more people are going to be charged.

SOHRAB SANDHU: In Ontario, five people were arrested and charged for offences related to extortion. Here in B.C., there have been no charges. Two people were arrested in December, but they were released.

ADAM MACINTOSH: In these circumstances, people generally are afraid and nothing I can see is suddenly going to change and take away that fear that they have. But if I was an officer who had charge of that investigation in that jurisdiction, I'm going to ask the questions about what is the actual fear versus a perceived fear. We are a rule of law country. We can't just go violate people's rights. We have to go through a process to obtain information and evidence. And organised crime is organised. They use efforts to avoid detection, which take time. And so sometimes, we could do everything within our power to support an individual who is in fear and that still won't take away all their concerns. But I do know that we're doing everything we can to support individuals, families, businesses to mitigate those concerns to the extent possible.

SOHRAB SANDHU: Superintendent MacIntosh wants more victims to come forward.

[Sound of trucks moving]

JAS ARORA: This is Pyle Business Centre, a very popular shopping destination for Indian community here in Surrey. This is where I first learned about extortions going on here in the community. There were shootings, there were extortion calls, extortion letters. And there were robberies at gunpoint.

SOHRAB SANDHU: Just a few blocks away from this shopping plaza is Connect FM, one of a number of Punjabi language radio stations based in Surrey.

[Sign of a phone dialing, followed by a phone call]

FEMALE VOICE: Hi. How may I help you?

SOHRAB SANDHU: Hi. My name is Sohrab. I'm a reporter with CBC News. I have an appointment with [inaudible].

VOICE 3: The door is open.

[Sounds of Vijay closing out his talk show and giving show's phone number]

SOHRAB SANDHU: Vijay Siani is in the studio just wrapping up his morning radio show.

VIJAY SIANI: [Speaking Punjabi] Have a nice weekend. [Speaking Punjabi continues.] [Inaudible voice in background] How are you?

SOHRAB SANDHU: I'm good. How are you?

VIJAY SIANI: Good to see you.

[Back to narration]

SOHRAB SANDHU: He says this year, the issue of extortion has been a hot topic.

VIJAY SIANI: Today, I actually had somebody from Calgary on the show. His home was shot at last week and he was sharing his ordeal. [Viewer speaking Punjabi]. Just when you feel that maybe it is subsiding. You hear a story which brings the issue, refreshes it right back up again.

SOHRAB SANDHU: When, when somebody like that comes to your show, and reach their story, what's the sort of response that you get from your listeners?

VIJAY SIANI: It was, again, the same thing. People are like, you know, this is just gotten too much out of hand. Our legal system, our law enforcement has gotten so weak, we've become a safe haven for people who are unabashedly and so brazenly doing what they're doing. You know, it's almost like they don't, they don't fear the law.

SOHRAB SANDHU: He's had politicians and police on his show trying to get answers.

[On Vijay's show]

VIJAY SIANI: They talk the talk. They know the seriousness and the gravity of the issue of the situation. But sometimes it feels that those are empty words. What's being done after that? I understand, and I appreciate that police and other officials cannot divulge all the discussions that they're having. This is, this is something that is a, that is an ongoing process where things need to be changed, Laws need to be changed and investigations take time. That's all understandable. But it's been more than a year. And despite the fact that we've had reports from various parts of the country, despite the fact that the perpetrators know that this is not something that is happening in the underbelly of the city where a lot of people don't know about it. That should be a deterrent in and of itself. When a perpetrator knows that the legal system, the law enforcement apparatus is on top of this issue, that should be a deterrent big enough for the perpetrators to step away. Is that happening?

MICHAEL DUHEME: An extraordinary situation is compelling us to speak about what we have discovered in our multiple ongoing investigations.

[Oscillating between Sohrab Sandhu and Michael Duheme speaking]

SOHRAB SANDHU: Then in mid-October, RCMP Commissioner Mike Duheme made this announcement.

MICHAEL DUHEME: What we're seeing is intimidation, harassment, extortion, coercion, any way or form that they feel threatened to obtain information for the government of India or through the agent.

SOHRAB SANDHU: Canada expelled six Indian diplomats, including the high commissioner. The officials are being accused of using their positions to engage in criminal activities. It's accusations the government of India denies. Brigitte Gauvin is the assistant commissioner of RCMP Federal Policing.

BRIGITTE GAUVIN: But what we've seen is the use of organised crime elements, and it's been publicly attributed and claimed by one organised crime group in particular, which is the Bishnoi group. And we believe that that group is connected to agents of the government of India.

BRIGITTE GAUVIN: Lawrence Bishnoi is a gangster who has been in Indian jail for the last nine years. He has more than 30 criminal cases pending against him. Indian investigators estimate Bishnoi controls a gang of 700 members across several Indian states. His name came up in one of the extortion calls that Jas Arora, the owner of the trucking business, received in August last year.

[Phone call in Punjabi]

SOHRAB SANDHU: Lawrence wants $1 million, the caller said.

JAS ARORA: I have no idea who is behind it. But one thing is for sure these are multi-peoples. They made a groups, right? And they make gangs of groups. And this is how they make money, right?

SOHRAB SANDHU: Are you able to see what these groups are, like?

JAS ARORA: Yeah. The groups are from India's, right? But they are saying that people are working here. So, you [inaudible] is India. As people are here, we all know it doesn't matter how much blame we Indian government or India or it's our problem, it's our country and it's happening in our house. When I'm talking, I mean, as our country, as Canada, I'm Canadian citizen, not Indian citizen.

SOHRAB SANDHU: Jas says he thinks the RCMP announcement has helped. He hasn't had any calls in the last couple of months. And now he sees regular police patrols around his home and business. But he is still worried about people here in Canada doing work for gangs in India.

JAS ARORA: We know that we need a peoples. The problem is when you bring in someone, you need to know who you're bringing in and why you bring in. Where do you check your reference, where you check their criminal records? It's, it's you know, when people are coming, they're not coming with the good intentions. All of them. Not all of them. You know, most of them. You can say that.

SOHRAB SANDHU: It's something that the radio host Vijay Saini said, too. He hears from callers, immigrants themselves who are frustrated with the system. We asked for a response from Immigration, Refugee and Citizenship Canada. In a statement, they say they worked closely with the Canada Border Services Agency, the RCMP, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, as well as its international partners to do security screening. And it checks against international databases to confirm identity and determine admissibility. Jas Arora is not confident in that system. He himself came to Canada as an immigrant when he was in high school.

JAS ARORA: My parents moved me to Canada. Only reason is because of better life. But where's the good life here? Where's the safety here? Came here, no complaint, hardworking, started from zero. Did everything now. Now, we thinking about the same thing. My dad was in the situation when he wants to move us from that country. And now I was thinking the same. My kids start thinking that. They don't want to live here anymore because he saw me. He goes, Look, it's like a jail here.

DEVIN ARORA: Like, it's been impacted because you have to look over your shoulder now, right? Like, usually I just, you know, normally go about now, but now I always have to double check go like, where am I going? Is it safe here? Who am I hanging out with? Are they the right people and stuff, right?

SOHRAB SANDHU: Jass's youngest son, Devin, has been sitting quietly. He brought him a roll of paper towel when Jas needed something to wipe his eyes.

DEVIN ARORA: Like for this age, I don't think you should really doing that. But like, now I have to, right?

SOHRAB SANDHU: Devin is 18. He just graduated from high school, and now he's not sure what's next.

DEVIN ARORA: Initially, we decided on me getting into my dad's business and that was always been the plan. But recently, due to these circumstance, it has changed. And then I've had to go look for a job, and it wasn't my decision and I'm not happy to, right? But like sometimes you have to adjust to the different environments, right?

JAS ARORA: I wanted them to be out. That's the plan. I want to see them successful in different countries and different [inaudible]. They're not doing trucking business. They're not going to deal with those peoples that I have to deal it. They're not allowed to come to office.

SOHRAB SANDHU: So far, Jess has filed nine reports with the police.

JAS ARORA: I'm pretty sure it's a serious threat, right? It is not a joke. When somebody continues threatening you for one year on and off for years. Then I've been stopping. And they've been, they've been telling me on the phone call, which has been recorded. Whatever I'm saying, it's being recorded. It's not just, it's evidence. And it says that go, go to police station. Go to hell or talk to them. They already know us. Do whatever you want to do. How I can sleep? When I'm going to [inaudible] when they, when I'm no longer?

MG: A documentary was produced by the CBC's Sohrab Sandhu with help from Liz Hoath at the audio documentary unit. Well, coming up after your regional update.

SOUNDCLIP

JOHN SPONG: The only way that this project is worth doing is if we treat the difference between 89 and 90 like it's life or death. [Music: Theme fading in] The artistry deserves better. Willie deserves better.

MG: He is known as the Ambassador of Weedville, Shotgun Willie, the Red-Headed Stranger. Willie Nelson has had many nicknames, but not as many nicknames as the number of albums that he has produced. 153 records by Mr. Willie Nelson. And now, music journalist Jon Spong has compiled a definitive ranking of all of them, including, as you heard, that crucial distinction between 89 and 90. We will talk about the meaning of Willie Nelson coming up in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Stick around.

[Music: Theme]

And ranking all 153 of Willie Nelson's albums

Guest: John Spong

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway. And you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Color of Sound by Willie Nelson]

MG: Listen to that. The unmistakeable voice of country music legend Willie Nelson singing Color of Sound.

[Music: Color of Sound by Willie Nelson continues]

MG: Songs from his new album, The Last Leaf on the Tree, his 153rd record. Willie Nelson released the 152nd album just six months ago in May, at the age of 91. He is still one of the most prolific musicians out there, simultaneously a pillar of American culture and an icon in the counterculture. Newsweek called him the King of Country Music in 1978, but Willie Nelson has done it all. Country, blues, jazz, gospel, rock, pop, reggae. The music journalist John Spong has listened to more of Willie Nelson's music than most. He spearheaded the creation of a definitive ranking of all of Willie's 153 albums. For the magazine Texas Monthly, and he's the host of a podcast, from PRX and Texas Monthly. It is called 'One by Willie.' John Spong is in Austin, Texas. John, good morning.

JOHN SPONG: Good morning. How are you?

MG: Well, I'm well. Willie Nelson, as I said, is, he's, we probably have an idea of who he is in our minds, he's a legend. People might think of him in one way or the other. For you, who is Willie Nelson?

JOHN SPONG: He is so much more than that legend. There is a conventional wisdom that he is this artist who struggled for 10 years in the '60s. And then, you know, it was tried to made, made to look conservative and sing in a traditional conventional commercial way and then, made it to Austin and grew his hair out and turned into this artist we love. And in so is all, the real story is so much deeper than that and, and what I love about it when you look at all his records, they're all about relationships. They're all about real friendships and real feelings. And there's just an authentic quality there that, that is impossible not to fall for.

MG: Daniel Lanois, the great Canadian producer in the podcast, compares him to Bob Marley, says that bikers and grandmothers and everybody in between kind of loves Willie Nelson.

JOHN SPONG: I love that. I love that. And to go a step further with the Marley analogy, if you ever start nerding out on YouTube dives and you look at old Marley live footage from show to show, his band is different every night and they're getting completely lost in the music and they create something special and singular each night with the same songs each night. And that's Willie and The Family band. They do the same thing, and there's just this wonderful spiritual quality to both.

MG: How did you fall in love with his music?

JOHN SPONG: Well, I'll tell you, you know, I grew up in Austin in the '70s and it was everywhere. And as I start to get older and start paying attention to what I'm hearing in the '80s when I'm in high school and college, the songs that I'd always enjoyed listening to started to mean more as, as I understood life more. I understood the messages in the songs, but also as I came to appreciate the artistry in a different level.

MG: Was there a gateway song for you?

JOHN SPONG: Oh wow. A bunch of them because there's so many tunnels to go down, but like Blue Eyes Crying In The Rain. If you're in Austin in the mid-'70s, that's when you go, 'This is, this is what we've been trying to tell the world about this this this artist, Willie.

[Music: Blue Eyes Crying In The Rain by Willie Nelson]

JOHN SPONG: But then, I don't know. Poncho and Lefty in the '80s with Merle Haggard. And it's such an incredible cinematic, dramatic story that they tell together. Bit about that time, there's Always On My Mind.

[Music: Always On My Mind by Willie Nelson]

JOHN SPONG: That was a big one for me as a kid because that was an Elvis song. You don't take songs from Elvis, right? But Willie did. That became his song. And then I remember seeing him sing it on Letterman and on Johnny Carson and all these wide appeal shows and saying, 'Oh, man, the whole world's getting it on with it.

[Music: Always On My Mind by Willie Nelson continues]

MG: Tell me about the ranking that you did. And I mean, that's tied to this podcast as well. Why would you want to do this? Why would you want to sift through everything that he has done and try and put it in some sort of order?

JOHN SPONG: Well, it's funny because when. Those kind of lists are everywhere, like I remember one of the first ones I saw that I really enjoyed reading was all of the Beatles songs, you know, in ranked. And one of the things I notice about those kinds of stories is when you were at the bottom of the list, the bottom of the rankings, it's often like a pithy 1 or 2 lines, maybe just five words about that song. When we were talking about putting this list together and realising just how many albums there were going to be, one of the editors said in a preliminary meeting, the guy who was going to head up the effort, he said, 'Let's be honest with ourselves. The difference between album number 89 and number 90 is not going to be significant. It's not going to be meaningful. Let's just state that up front.' And I kind of got my back up and I said, 'The only way that this effort, this project is worth doing is if we treat the difference between 89 and 90 like it's life or death. Why would we spend the time to do this? The artistry deserves better. Willie deserves better. And why wouldn't we try?

MG: Let's go back to 1962. This is album number four in your rankings. And Then I Wrote, which is Willie Nelson's first full-length album. How did this record set the tone for what he would do and the impact that he would have decades down the line?

JOHN SPONG: It's interesting because it's very much an evolution of what that album, I would have to say does, because it's in retrospect. At the time, it had these amazing songs on it. It's probably the most incredible debut by a singer-songwriter ever. I want to say Crazy and Funny How Time Slips Away and Hello Walls are back to back to back on that record. That is unimaginable.

[Music: Hello Walls by Willie Nelson]

JOHN SPONG: It didn't do that much for me in the moment because it didn't sell. It didn't make him the star that Nashville thought he rightly should be. But when you go back and look at it now, it's like, 'Holy smokes, He, he was this fully formed as a songwriter when he showed up.' That's amazing.

Speaker 2: [Music: Hello Walls by Willie Nelson continues]

MG: There is Willie Nelson. And often in, in saying that you will say Willie Nelson and Trigger. Who is Trigger?

JOHN SPONG: Trigger is the most famous guitar in America, with the sole exception maybe of Lucille with B.B. King. I will say, though, that there were multiple Lucille's through B.B.'s life. There ain't but one Trigger.

MG: And you can tell when you look at Trigger, because Trigger has been I mean, it's been played six ways from Sunday.

JOHN SPONG: It's got that big hole in it. [MG: Yeah.] You know, and everybody likes to talk about how that must be, why it has such a distinct sound. It's got the distinct sound, in part because it's a classical guitar and no one ever played classical guitars in country music prior to Willie.

[Music: On the Road Again by Willie Nelson]

JOHN SPONG: It's an acoustic that has this weird hook-up for the tech nerds out there who would actually be able to explain it better than I can that, that doesn't quite fit with what the guitar was designed to do. So, it gives it this slight element of fuzz whenever Willie plays it. And, and then you add in that Willie plays the guitar like no one else ever has. There's just, people talk about the phrasing of his singing and how he's like a jazz singer like Ella Fitzgerald or, or Frank Sinatra moving around the beat. He does the same thing with that guitar. And so it makes for this really subtle interplay between guitar and vocals. [Music: On the Road Again by Willie Nelson continues.] For me, it builds a curiosity. I wonder what's coming next. And it makes me lean, lean in.

MG: He's had nicknames over the course of his career. The mayor of Weedsville. That's kind of self-explanatory. [JOHN SPONG: Yup.] He's also known as Shotgun Willie and the Red Headed Stranger. And those are both titles of albums that are in your top five. Talk about Shotgun Willie.

JOHN SPONG: Shotgun Willie is really this turning point record for Willie.

[Music: Shotgun Willie by Willie Nelson]

JOHN SPONG: One of the things we tried to do was not just to review the record and tell you how it sounded and what was interesting about it musically, but to tell you where he was in his life. And with Shotgun Willie, he had finally gotten out of the Nashville system. He recorded it with Atlantic Records. Everybody likes to talk about how what happened there was that Willie finally got some creative control and that's why he made this record that didn't sound like any other country record ever had before it. It's funky in a way country music hadn't been. All those things are true. But the real key to that record is it's the first time he ever recorded with his older sister Bobbie.

[Music: Shotgun Willie by Willie Nelson continues]

JOHN SPONG: When they recorded that record in New York, I mean, these are country people and they grew up playing songs together. And that was their life. That was how they felt safe and kind of free during the Depression when they grew up so impoverished. When Bobbie was going to record on that record with Willie, she flew to New York and it was her first time ever in an aeroplane. One other little thing, if I can to add in there. That's really cool. Willie had some writer's block, as I understand it, when they got set to record that album. And so they've got a week in the Atlantic studio in New York and he is kind of at a loss. What does he do? Instead of working on the record he's not ready to do, he makes, he just records a bunch of gospel songs with Bobbie in the band. Because those are the songs he and Bobby played when they were kids. That brought them together, that taught them music, that taught them that the world could be a safe place if they were just in, within this music. So, he spent the first couple of days making a gospel record. It was released about five years later. It's called The Troublemaker. It is beautiful. He had to do that in order to get to a place where he could make Shotgun Willie.

MG: One of the things that people may know about his life and the career that he has had is that he's had run-ins with, you know, over the course of success and some of that with the tax collector. There's a story of how he owed, what, $17 million in unpaid taxes. And he released, as you do, you turn that into something. He released the IRS tapes in 1991. This is the first track on that record. Who'll Buy My Memories.

[Music: Who'll Buy My Memories by Willie Nelson]

MG: Who do you hear when, when you listen to that?

JOHN SPONG: Man, that record kills me. That is one of my favourites. Do you love that record, too?

MG: It's really, it's, because it comes out of a wild circumstance too, and he manages to make something beautiful out of it.

[Music: Who'll Buy My Memories by Willie Nelson continues in background]

JOHN SPONG: It's one of these great things, again with the list when we dug a little deeper. So, Willie has this trouble with the IRS. And about that time, you know, his oldest son dies and his sister, Bobbie, had two sons die in a six month, right around in there. And that, those are the hardest things anyone could ever deal with, right? And then with it, he has become a joke on late night television. You know, Willie takes himself very seriously. He's always got that smile and that charm and it's fun. But he's, he's really serious and intentional with what he does. And being a joke was painful for him. The IRS tapes really were the, this is how Willie deals with stuff. For one, music is always the answer. Music always will make things better. So, start there. He had been working on those songs. It's an album. It's a double record, at least it was initially, of him playing just songs that he wrote, just him and his guitar. So, already it's going to be lower, a lower cost to make it right. It's going to have a higher profit. My favourite part about this, do you know, do you remember who Bob Johnson was?

MG: Remind me.

JOHN SPONG: Of Bob Dylan's producer, Leonard Cohen's producer [MG: Right, OK.] Mortal figure. He had moved to Austin. He was having his own tax troubles or had had his own tax troubles. And Willie gave him some work because Willie's a good dude and he's helping out a buddy. Right? So Bob Johnston is in the studio. His tour that really gave him was to clean up those recordings. The FBI kicks down the door at Willie's studio while Johnson's in there. They say, we're taking everything. Don't touch anything. Everything you see is ours now. We're with the IRS. And Johnson knows how the IRS works because he had his own trouble and he says everything, but these tapes right here. These tapes are mine. He packs them all up and leaves with them. So, now the IRS has everything that Willie owned except for Trigger, who had also been hidden away. And Willie says, 'Here's what we'll do with those records, Bob. Thanks for saving them. We're going to release those. We're going to sell them at night through a 1-800 number. If I sell 2 million of them, that's 20 million bucks. I'll be able to pay the IRS off with that. But also, Bob, since you've done me this great turn, you're going to be the producer on the record and you're going to get a few points profit yourself.' To me, that is such a great Willie story. He was convinced he could get out of it that way. His getting out of it was a lot more complicated. But that was the first step. And then? And then with it, you get this incredibly beautiful record. It is like listening to that is like having Willy sitting at the edge of your bed playing the songs just for you. And not many people even remember that that record was ever released.

MG: These are the kind of stories that are associated with him. And I mean, you have this list, but the other part of the work that you've done on Willie's catalogue is putting together this podcast, talking to people about their relationship with Willie Nelson and his music. And you talked to I mean, the list goes on and on, members of his family, Whoopi Goldberg, Kacey Musgraves and Brené Brown, who is an author and a professor. This is her speaking about the impact that hearing Willie's version of Amazing Grace.

SOUNDCLIP

[Willie Nelson singing Amazing Grace]

BRENE BROWN: It was up until that moment I thought the lyric was 'Twas grace that taught my heart to feel. But when Willie sang it, he's saying 'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear, not feel.

[Music continues]

BRENE BROWN: And grace, my fears relieved, and I. I'm walking through my neighbourhood and I just stop and I'm like, what the hell? And I. I played it back. And again, Grace, that taught my heart to fear. Grace that taught my heart to fear. Grace that taught my heart to fear. And then all of a sudden, it dawned on me that I didn't know how to be afraid. I don't know how to be afraid. And that's the grace part.

[Music continues]

MG: People speak with such, such love and reverence for Willie Nelson in this podcast. One of the, that's one of the things I love is the people that you talk to from, from artists and people who have nothing to do with music to musicians like Sheryl Crow. Talk about him with this sense of, of reverence and love. Were you surprised when you sit down with people and you hear the kind of impact that his music has had on them?

JOHN SPONG: I'm never surprised, but I'm always floored if that if I can split that hair because I know how much the music means to people. But when you get into the specifics of it and how personal it is, is the main thing. Brené Brown is a global figure. And one of the things that I loved about learning that from her is that she now probably didn't choke up because it was really an emotional conversation with her. And she was just such a generous person to talk about all that. She has changed so many people's lives by helping them deal with fear and explaining to them what fear is and where it's rational and where it's not, where it holds it back and where it doesn't end and where it leads us to maybe hurt people and all that stuff. She has changed millions of people's lives with that message. She got that understanding on a walk in her neighbourhood listening to Willie Nelson sing one song on her iPod. That is so powerful, that's global.

MG: I have to ask you quickly, just about one of my favourite records, which is produced by our friend Daniel Lanois. You call this a landmark record, Teatro. What do you make of that record?

JOHN SPONG: That's a great one to bring up because a lot of people, there are so many records. Everybody's got blind spots, right? And for me, growing up in Austin, Teatro was a blind spot. I loved Lanois. I liked the U2 records fine. I really loved the stuff he did with Robbie Robertson. Those records were really significant for me. But then when he does Emmylou Harris's record, I was like, 'Well, I like him [inaudible] the way she is. And so I was not nuts about that as a 23-year-old, whoever I was. And then he did Teatro and I was like, 'This doesn't sound like a Willie record to me. It sounds like a Lanoir record. And that's not what I wanted from Willie.

Speaker 2: [Music: I Never Cared For You by Willie Nelson]

JOHN SPONG: Man, when I started working on this stuff and started to pay attention to that record, it just blew my mind. There's a lot of Willie, just old Willie songs on there that I'm used to this other way. What's so great about this is that when Lenoir put them into this other framework, it allowed other parts of Willie to come to the fore. And the main thing I think about is Lenoir. He recorded it in this really cool old studio. There was no separation between any of the instruments. They were all doing it live like sitting knee to knee. And they're using all these Latin polyrhythms and all this weird stuff that is not been in a Willie record before. But what it did, especially if you listen close, it prompted Willie to play Trigger differently. [Music continues] And you hear the flamenco influence and the Django Reinhardt influence in Willie's playing in a way that you don't on the other records. And so that combined with just kind of the aethereal quality of the soundscape makes it a very, very special. Yeah, landmark masterpiece.

MG: He's 91 now and continues to put out records. And how do you think, people often talk about the need to try to stay relevant as they get older. How do you think he thinks about that?

JOHN SPONG: He does.

MG: You don't think he does at all?

JOHN SPONG: No, he does what he does. And a long time ago, I did a story about Larry McMurtry, and I was talking to the art critic Dave Hickey, about him. And he said he said about McMurtry, he said, McMurtry is a writer. And what that means for McMurtry is it's kind of like being a critter. You put a cow out in the field and he's going to eat grass. You put McMurtry in front of a typewriter, he's going to write. Willie is like that. Willie is going to create music. It's just what he does.

MG: What do you hope we learn from the podcast about him?

JOHN SPONG: And for me. There's some, I guess, obvious answers, like, you know, finding what's in yourself and being true to yourself. That's, that's how the success finally came for Willie. An equally important message. Everything Willie has done, and I believe this is about a real relationship. Shotgun Willie is the special record that it is because he's with Bobbie finally. So many of those duet records that he did. There was a spate of them in the '80s with Roger Miller and Hank Snow, and I forget the other two. Forgive me, Webb Pearson. People said at the time, well, these are guys that did him favours when he was coming up and didn't have any money. And he's repaying the favour. He wasn't repaying the favour, even though that would be a fine thing to have done. No. Those were his best friends. What he liked doing was playing music with those people. He, he built his life. He structured his life so that all of it could be real relationships. He's get that wonderful CCR cover. Have You Ever Seen The Rain. That was his daughter, Paula. Just Breathe with Lucas. The new album with Micah, those are all wonderful lessons. He made those with his kids because, because that's his life.

MG: He listens to the podcast. Right?

JOHN SPONG: I know he listens to some of them. Yeah, I know Paula. When she did the episode about Shotgun Willie and explained the gunfight that gave him the nickname Shotgun Willie, she said, she said, Yeah. I went on the bus and listen with Dad and we had a really good time.

MG: So how close are you? How close are you to getting him on the podcast?

JOHN SPONG: I don't know. I don't know. We've been talking a little bit about doing what was the Annie and if I get to see [MG: His wife], was it wife, Annie? Yeah, I love the idea that he might stick his head in out of the side of the screen when I at least expect it. And one of the things that I've kind of always known about Willie from writing about him is that he doesn't look back. It's all about the next thing. It's like when you said something about relevance. He's not thinking about staying relevant. He's like I say, doing what he does. I interviewed him about ten years ago out in Lubbock and he was so bored when I was trying to get him to talk about Austin in the 70s. And then when we were finally done, he said, Hey man, I just got a new song. Snoop, you want to hear it? What in God's name do you mean? You just saw me snoop. And it was rolling me up in Smoke Me When you Die When I die. He could not wait to play his new song for somebody. And he looked at me when I was over. He said, You think it'll be a hit? But I don't know a thing about anything. But I loved the. What you wound up about is what you just did, as opposed to something that happened 40 years ago.

MG: There's no one like him. And I love what you have done with his catalogue through the list, but the podcast is really something special. John, thank you very much for this.

JOHN SPONG: Yeah, thanks for the opportunity. You guys are great.

MG: John Spong is the host of One By Willie. It's a podcast produced by PRX and Texas Monthly. He also worked on Texas Monthly's feature, which was newly updated this month, ranking all of Willie Nelson's 153 albums. That is The Current for this Tuesday, the 12th of November. Q's up next on CBC Radio One. You know, you think of that list, 153 records. What would number one be on that list? How would you go about figuring out what number one is? That's another question. But what is actually number one, when the math is all said and done, it turns out that the number one album on that list is Phases and Stages, Willie Nelson's album from 1974. It's about the end of a marriage, told from both the point of view of the wife and the husband. Texas Monthly called it Willie at his most universal and absolutely singular best. From Phases and Stages, it's Willie Nelson and Bloody Mary Morning. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll see you tomorrow.

[Music: Bloody Mary Morning by Willie Nelson]

Tuesday, November 12, 2024 Full Transcript

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