Is it 'people living with disabilities' or 'disabled people'? It's both.

On Dec. 8, CBC Manitoba's Weekend Morning Show host Nadia Kidwai spoke with Erika Rodeck, who worked as a researcher through the 2019 CBC Abilicrew Placements for Excellence program. CAPE is a group of Canadians with disabilities who have been hired for three-month internships.

Listen to the interview here:

You can find a transcript of Kidwai's discussion with Rodeck below.

Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2019.

Transcript of interview

Nadia Kidwai: Give us a sense of, kind of, the extra support that you need, that people with vision take for granted.

Erika Rodeck: Actually I don't like to think of it as extra because I think we all have different challenges, and I don't like to think of myself as having more challenges than sighted people. I just like to think of myself as having different challenges. And, you know, independence is definitely something that I strive for. I've definitely improved in that regard, particularly within the past few years. However, I think it's going to be something that's ongoing for me. I think it's going to be something I continue to improve upon and work towards. At the same time, you know, I don't really know that any of us are really independent, right? Like, I mean sighted people need to ask people, you know, for directions, or different things. So, as much as I try to do, you know, everything I can for myself, I also don't feel ashamed whenever I do need assistance, because I also believe that I have a strong ability to assist others. So I think it's just a matter of, you know, being willing to help people out and accept their help.

NK: Where did that comfort in who you are come from?

ER: (Hmm) That's a good question. I think just from my experiences, and having a really supportive family, I'm very fortunate in that way, that I have a really close family. I, particularly over the last couple of years, I've formed some really strong friendships, and built up some really supportive networks within the disability community. So I have people that I can kind of talk to about these things, and we can bounce ideas off each other, and really learn from each other. I took a disability studies course. I actually took a few of them when I was at the University of Winnipeg and I just really learned a lot from those courses. I think exploring some of the theory — even though I've been living as a person with a disability for my whole life — exploring some of the theory and some of the literature that's out there really helped me think about things in a positive way. Not that I didn't beforehand, but I think it really gave me some perspective.

NK: How much is being blind part of your identity?

ER: It's part of my identity because it's something that I live everyday, and as someone who has no vision and, you know, has eyes that look a little bit different, and uses a cane, I can't hide it. Right? So, if you meet me, you're going to know right away that I'm blind. So, it's just part of me. But at the same time, it doesn't define me, so it's kind of like the fact that I have brown hair. Yeah, that's part of me, when you meet me, you're going to see it, that I have dark hair. That I don't have blond hair. Like, that's just part of me, and it's front and centre. However, I mean, I don't constantly walk around thinking, like, "I'm blind, I'm blind. I have brown hair, I have brown hair." Right? Those are just things that are a part of me, and when I think about my identity, there's many different things that make up who I am. So, you know, I think sometimes in discussions about disabilities, there's this idea of, oh well, you know, you're not a disabled person, you're a person who just happens to have a disability, and I think in some ways that's true. But I also think that it is part of who I am and, no it doesn't define me, no it doesn't, it's not all I am. But it's also not something that I'm ashamed of. 

NK: Let's talk about one part of your identity. As a journalist, what stories did you want to tell while you're here?

ER: I wanted to create awareness, and explore things that I'm really passionate about. I'm really passionate about anything to do with, as I said, people who are marginalized in some ways. So being able to work on that story with Bryce Hoye about voting accessibility, and how people with disabilities often have challenges with voting. Not because they're people with disabilities, but because the way that things are designed. You know, voting is not made accessible to everyone. So I was really glad to tell stories like that. At the same time, I also wanted to step out of my comfort zone, and I wanted to tell stories that, you know, maybe aren't part of my life. Or do research on things that I'd never considered before. Because I think it's so important, no matter who you are, to be able to get outside of your own box, your own bubble, whatever you want to call it. And try to empathise with someone who has a totally different experience from you and just learn about the world around you. 

NK: Sometimes when you're from a marginalized community, you have to do kind of mental gymnastics and think about how people perceive you, as well as what you're putting out there, with that.

ER: Uh huh.

NK:  Is that something that's part of your life?

ER: Always, always, always. Because, it's not so much that I'm worried about people being unkind to me, or that I'm worried that people aren't going to like me. That's not really what it is for me. But, for me, it's almost deeper than that. It's more, I worry people are not going to respect me. I worry that I won't be seen as part of the team, or I won't be taken seriously, or you know, sometimes, like people with disabilities, people without disabilities, I do need help sometimes. And I worry that oh, if somebody has to help me with something. You know, are they going to think that I'm less mature because I need help. Or are they going to think that I'm less of an adult, or less capable. And that is something that I worry about often, and that does concern me on a daily basis. But I was really glad that when I came here, pretty much in my first day, all that was alleviated because yes, I needed assistance sometimes, but I was also able to assist others, and everyone here just made me feel like part of the team, and made me feel really accepted.

NK:  You know, it's interesting, working in the same newsroom as you, one of the, one of the things I was concerned about approaching you was, am I going to come across as patronizing? Am I going to come across as ignorant? Am I going to say something that's offensive. So, you know there's concern on the other side, too. Do you feel that discomfort from people when they approach you — that they might be nervous?

ER: I didn't feel that from you. I do notice that from other people here, not people within the CBC, but just out in the community, and things like that. And, I mean, I can't speak for all people with disabilities, I would never claim to, I mean I'm just one person. However, what I've heard from other people in the community and from what I've experienced myself, to me I think a good thing to live by, and to think about, is just speak to me like you'd speak to anyone else. "Yes, I watched a movie. Yes, I saw so and so when I passed them in the hallway." I mean, I didn't see them, but I'll say I saw them. You know, I like to know what colour things are. All of those visual things that people talk about are perfectly fine to talk about with me. So basically, you know, talk to me like you would talk to anyone else, and then I'll tell you, politely of course, if something's offensive. And it's kind of the same with sometimes when I'm in an area that isn't familiar to me, sometimes I do need to take someone's arm, and have them guide me. I like when people just walk their speed, and I tell them if, you know, it's too slow, too fast, or something like that. So, I think it's the same thing with conversations. Just talk like you would to anyone else, and then, you know, if you do say something offensive, we can talk about that. And, you know, as long as it's coming from a good place and as long as people are being genuine, I'm really open to educating people, and to having really honest conversations about things. 

NK: We live in this world now where we're so afraid of offending people that I think we just.

ER: Yes 

NK: Tend to just avoid them, and then nothing happens. 

ER: Yes, uh huh.

NK: And sometimes it's from the discomfort, and the mistakes we make, that the learning happens. And I just want to say, I know that this is an interview with you, but I do want you to know that your presence in the newsroom was such a learning [experience] for us because I have never worked with someone who was blind. Right? And, just seeing you, hearing from you, talking to you, was so valuable for all of us. And we talk about representation in businesses and workplaces, often in terms of cultural diversity. Why is it important to have representation from the community of people with disabilities, or disabled people, whichever term you prefer?

ER: Actually, that's kind of interesting, because a lot of people will say, "Oh, we should use people-first language, you know, you are a person first." 

NK: Yes I don't know which one it is. Yeah.

ER: There is no right or wrong answer.

NK: Right.

ER: It depends who you're with. So some people will say that, and I mean that's valid. However, there's this idea about disability, it's called, I'm kind of getting academic here, it's called the social model of disabilities. So, to put it simply, it's the idea that, say for example for me, like, I can get around fine. Like I don't have any barriers, like me, personally. The reason that I have challenges, is because things are not always accessible. So, I can use a computer, fine. But if there's no screen reader, if there's no screen reading software available, then I can't use it. So, it's not that I can't use a computer because I can't see, it's that if a computer doesn't have software, screen reading software, then I can't use it. So, it means that people are disabled by societies that are inaccessible, and by environments that are inaccessible. Or even in terms of attitude, you know, I believe I'm a very capable person. But if I run into a situation where people don't think I'm capable, then I'm not necessarily going to be able to contribute because people don't think I'm capable. So under that way of thinking, the preference is disabled people because the disability is not within the person, it's within society. So there's no right or wrong, there's no, and even the things that I'm telling you here, this is Erika Rodeck's perspective. 

NK: Right.

ER: I am just one person. You might interview another blind person who will say, "Yeah, like, when people say 'see you,' I get really offended." And so I'm just one person telling you how I feel. 

NK: Yeah.

ER: So, it's just like, um... 

NK: Like any other community.

ER: Any other community.

NK: There's nuances in diversity.

ER: Yes. And even for me, like, you know, some sighted people are going to be this way, some others are going to be a different way, right? 

NK: Uh huh.

ER: We're all different.

NK: But you have this pressure that, you know, we put on minoritized communities.

ER: Yeah, that's true.

NK: You're speaking for the entire community. OK, so then, back to that question of why it's important for workplaces to have that representation particularly from that community.

ER: I think it's important because I think once people see that somebody is capable, then they kind of — those prejudices or those sort of misconceptions or those sort of concerns — go away or really lessen because they can see, "Hey, this person can do the work," and, "No, we don't have to, sort of, watch them every minute." And, you know, one of the things that I did before I started working here is, I worked with my worker from Vision Loss Rehab Manitoba, who showed me when you come in the door, this is how you get to your desk, this is how you get from your desk to the door. This is how you, you know, obviously, I don't know the whole building, but he showed me the places I'm going to need to go. He showed me how to map that out and memorize the routes.

So, you know, I didn't have to rely on people to be helping me navigate all the time, I mean, sometimes I would if were were going to a meeting, and it wasn't a place I go often, and yes somebody would guide me. But, I just think it's important for people to see all of these things in action because, I mean, I can give a speech on what it's like to live with a visual impairment. Or I can give a speech on the things I can do and the things I am capable of. However, I think the best thing is for people to just see it. I mean, even some of my colleagues told me that they learned a lot just sitting beside me. And not because I gave a lecture about disability every day … I was just doing my work like everyone else. But they can see, you know, when I walk into the newsroom, what that looks like and how that is with me using my cane, and, you know, using landmarks to navigate my way. Or, when I sit down and I start using my computer and when I put on my headphones, so I can hear my screen reader. Right?

All of those things [that] are just so obvious to me can really educate people. And, so I think that, in a lot of ways, in order to sort of educate,or advocate, you don't necessarily have to say anything. I mean, you can say something, and that can really be valuable. But, even just going to work and doing your work, and being in the community, and doing leisure activities, and just living your life can really show people that you are capable. 

NK: You mentioned something today when we were cutting your cake to say farewell — which I kind of think impacted a lot of us — it was something that a coworker referred to you as that mentor to you. Can you repeat that story?

ER: Yes, I'll never forget this. To people this is going to sound like, really simple, but to me it was huge. I was doing a phone interview, and, for people who, you know, haven't done any kind of any recording or anything like that, it's a bit technical the way that it works, it's quite complicated. So, I was asking people to help me, you know, with that, so I could still, you know, ask the questions and do the talking. But, they could help me with the technical side. And so I was on the phone with someone, and I asked someone, you know, can you please come and help me record? And they did. And they said to the person on the phone, "Just hold on. I'm just helping my colleague here." And that just made my day, because I've never been called a colleague before. That was the first time I was actually called one, and that was just amazing.

Read some of Erika Rodeck's stories below: