Joly says she wasn't briefed on foreign interference for over a year

Canada's foreign affairs minister says she didn't know that foreign interference was taking place in Canada until she learned about it through a media report, the commission of inquiry heard Thursday.

Mélanie Joly said that while the federal government had been watching for interference in Canadian politics by other countries and has documented six cases, she only learned of it in May 2023 when it was reported that Conservative MP Michael Chong had been targeted by the Chinese government.

Although Joly had been appointed foreign affairs minister in October 2021, she said information about foreign interference hadn't been part of the briefing material that she received from the department. 

She said she also did not recall a memorandum to cabinet in May 2022 that outlined the need to take steps to counter hostile actions by state actors, adding that it came early in Russia's war with Ukraine.

Joly said her briefing packages now contain a section on foreign interference. She said she receives twice-monthly briefings on foreign interference and briefings prior to some foreign trips. A member of her staff is now charged with monitoring information on foreign interference, she said.

Speaking later to reporters, Joly defended the decision by Global Affairs officials not to tell her about foreign interference taking place in Canada before hearing the news about Chong.

"I think foreign affairs at the time, and still now, has been dealing with many, many issues around the world and I have total trust in my diplomats," she said when asked whether the department kept her in the dark.

"But can we do better, of course, and that's what we're doing every day."

Joly told the inquiry that foreign interference and online disinformation have been growing more challenging as the geopolitical situation has gotten more complicated. While she said China targets dissidents, she described Russian disinformation as a "gangrene" that seeks to foster social tensions and create dissatisfaction in Canadian society.

Joly said she also worries about India's activities in Canada in the wake of Sikh activist Hardeep Singh Nijjar's murder in June 2023.

Bilateral relations went cold after Trudeau rose in the House of Commons in September 2023 and publicly accused Modi's government in of involvement in Nijjar's assassination.

"I'm always concerned," Joly responded when asked later by reporters whether she feared there could be future deaths on Canadian soil linked to the Indian government. "Of course. Because we want to make sure that there is cooperation and there's no cooperation right now. Of course, we'll continue to make sure that we protect Canadians." 

Earlier in the day, former Public Safety minister Marco Mendicino told the inquiry that governments and political parties should be required by law to disclose when they use artificial intelligence.

Mendicino said that while he and his successor Dominic LeBlanc have taken steps to help Canada counter foreign interference, such as the adoption of Bill C-70, more could be done.

"I would suggest that artificial intelligence and the deployment of deep fakes is extremely concerning to me," he told the inquiry Thursday.

"And I believe that there is policy and legislative work to be done there to ensure that sitting governments, as well as political parties, are required to disclose when they use artificial intelligence as part of their products of communications or engaging with the public ..."

Mendicino also called on the federal government to engage in more "digital diplomacy" with online platforms and said it has to ensure that Elections Canada has the tools it needs to go after people who want to undermine elections. 

Mendicino said the federal government also should cooperate more with provincial and municipal governments that can also be targets of foreign interference.

While Chong told the inquiry last month that Canada has become a playground for foreign interference, Mendicino said the steps he and LeBlanc have taken are making it harder for foreign governments to meddle in Canadian politics.

"In my opinion, Canada is an obstacle course for foreign interference and we've got to make sure that we make it even harder going forward," he said.

Mendicino also criticized the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians (NSICOP) report made public in June, which concluded that some MPs had wittingly or unwittingly participated in foreign interference. He said its conclusions went beyond the intelligence it received.

"I do believe that they were doing their level best to get to the core of the issue," he said. "It seems as though they were interpreting intelligence without having actually named any parliamentarians in the report itself."

Under questioning by Sujit Choudhry, lawyer for NDP MP Jenny Kwan, Mendicino agreed that officials need to clear the air on foreign interference and parliamentarians.

"I am very worried that the entire conversation around foreign interference and parliamentarians is being transformed into a kangaroo court, with very little regard for the process of understanding how we assess intelligence, especially given its rapidly evolving nature," he said.

On Wednesday, Trudeau's national security adviser Nathalie Drouin told the inquiry that while some MPs may have made errors in judgment or associated with the wrong people, none had committed espionage or sabotage, or betrayed Canada.

If a parliamentarian is participating in foreign interference, it is a matter for professionals, Mendicino said.

He said that "if a parliamentarian is compromised, if they are becoming a witting participant in aiding our adversaries," the government should "take that advice first from our non-partisan officials with the expertise to evaluate the rapidly evolving nature of intelligence." Where appropriate, he said, the matter should be "handed over to law enforcement to adjudicate their culpability as a means of holding them accountable."

Mendicino was also questioned on how his office handled warrant applications from CSIS when he was minister. CSIS has testified that a warrant connected to an investigation into foreign interference submitted to Mendicino's predecessor Bill Blair took 54 days to be signed — far longer than the average.

Mendicino told the inquiry that while reviewing CSIS warrant applications was a priority for him and he would do it quickly, he could not say how many days it took.

On Friday, Blair, is scheduled to take the stand.  Blair has said he signed the application the same day he first learned of it. On Wednesday, his former chief of staff Zita Astravas was not able to explain the delay.

The inquiry, chaired by Justice Marie-Josée Hogue, was set up following media reports which accused China of interfering in the 2019 and 2021 federal elections.

In her initial report, made public in May, Hogue found that while it was possible that foreign interference occurred in a small number of ridings, it did not affect the overall election results.