Jane Goodall on how she faces climate change, COVID-19 and war

Jane Goodall has seen dark times. The 87-year-old lived through the Second World War, taking shelter at a family home in Bournemouth, England.

It was there she befriended trees, brought worms to bed, and hid out in chicken coops for hours, laying the groundwork for the field research she would conduct with chimpanzees in Tanzania in 1960.

Though that work in the forest made her an esteemed primatologist, the destruction of that environment set her on a new path: promoting conservation. That's a mission she's been on for more than 30 years. 

The renowned primatologist and writer recently released The Book of Hope: A Survival Guide for Trying Times.

Goodall recently spoke with The Sunday Magazine's Piya Chattopadhyay about her life during the Second World War and the COVID-19 pandemic, and why she refuses to lose hope in the face of adversity. 

Here's part of their conversation.

What do you mean by hope? 

I like to think of it now, [that] the human race is at the end of a very, very long, dark tunnel, and right at the end is a little star. That's hope. 

But we don't just sit and hope that the star will come to us. No, we have to gird our loins, as the Bible says, and work hard to crawl under, climb over, work around these obstacles, like climate change and loss of biodiversity and poverty and corruption and unsustainable lifestyles, all those things, to reach that star. 

So hope is about action. But if you don't have hope, if you don't believe that you can make a difference or that a difference can be made, then you fall into apathy. What's the good of doing anything? And if everybody falls into apathy, that's the end. 

But fortunately, more and more people are taking action, and particularly the young people today. 

What concrete action are you taking in your life to stave off climate disaster and the loss of biodiversity, that you think people listening could adopt? 

It's different for different people. But if you realize that every day you live on this planet, you make some kind of impact, and then you realize that actually you can choose the kind of impact you make, then [you] start to think: When you go shopping, this thing I'm going to buy, did it harm the environment? Was it cruel to animals? Is it cheap because of slave labour or unfair wages in other countries? And if the answer is yes, don't buy it. 

And the good news is that consumer pressure, the more and more and more people who choose ethically when they go shopping, is changing business. It's changing the way business works. And I know that for a fact. I've talked to many CEOs about this. 

If it was just you, it wouldn't matter. But it's not just you. There are millions of people now around the globe making responsible decisions in how they live their lives, thinking about their use of electricity, their use of water, could they go shopping less. All those little things. But cumulatively, they can add up to big change. 

And when you go talk to those CEOs of large corporations, the world leaders… What do you say to them? How do you push the wealthy and powerful to do what needs to be done? 

Telling stories. It's no good to argue with people. But if you can find out a little bit about the person you're talking to, find one little point of commonality between you, then try and find a story that will reach the heart. 

Because I honestly believe that arguing, presenting facts, presenting statistics [doesn't work]. They may give you lip service. And say, 'Yes, you're right.' But they may not change. Because change has to come from within.

And [if they do change], let them think it's their decision. Don't feel, 'Oh, they must acknowledge what I said.' No, I don't want them to. I just want them to change.

Where does hope fit in [with the pandemic]?

I don't have an answer for everything. If you've lost your job and you're basically being pushed out on the street, the kind of hope you have will be like being at the end of the tunnel and hoping the star comes to you. Because what can you do? 

On the other hand, there are people who find themselves in that situation and they say, 'Well, I'm going to find something to do.' And a lot of people get hope by volunteering to help others who are even worse off than they are. And I think when you take action, especially if you take action in a group, and you see that you're making a difference, and you know that all over the world there are amazing volunteers doing amazing things, that gives you hope in the indomitable human spirit. We won't give up. 

And I think one reason that I think that I have the attitude I have is that I grew up in the war in England. And we weren't prepared for war. We had a brave air force. We didn't have a proper navy. We didn't have a proper army. We didn't have proper defences along the south coast. And I'm right on the seafront. We had a bit of barbed wire and some scaffolding and old men coming out with pitchforks, that was about it. 

But we had Churchill. We had Churchill who roused the defiant spirit in the British people. We will never be defeated. And if we hadn't had Churchill, I think we'd have been overrun. 

Basically, there wasn't any hope. There was no way that we could withstand the might of the German military. But we did. 

Written and produced by Sarah-Joyce Battersby. Q&A has been edited for length and clarity.