Sri Lanka bombings likely orchestrated by outside force, expert says

Guests: Ashwin Hemmathagama, Jude Aloysius, Alan Keenan

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: I believe a diabolical attempt to create racial and religious tensions in this country yet again thereby pulling the country backwards just as we as a country economically, socially and otherwise is recovering from the protected war, which basically destroyed the very fabric of our nation.

DM: That's Sri Lankan finance minister Mangala Samaraweera speaking to reporters yesterday after coordinated bomb attacks killed at least 290 people and injured more than 500. What should have been a day of worship for the country's Christian community quickly turned to destruction and despair. Three churches and three hotels targeted in coordinated attacks both inside and outside the capital city of Colombo. Police have arrested a number of suspects. For the latest on the attacks, I'm joined by Ashwin Hemmathagama. He's a senior journalist and Sri Lankan correspondent. He's in Colombo, Sri Lanka. Hello.

ASHWIN HEMMATHAGAMA: Hello.

DM: How are people coping in Colombo today?

AH: Well the curfew was lifted 6:00 o'clock this morning and I mean it's declared a holiday and schools are closed and universities are closed indefinitely. Well vehicle movements are less and streets are empty and people are confused and they are deeply mourning for those who died.

DM: Do we know why these hotels and churches were targeted?

AH: Well actually on the 4th of April, the international intelligence agencies have informed the Sri Lankan authorities that there is a possibility, churches specifically and tourist destinations in Sri Lanka, could be attacked. And then again Sri Lankan Police Department and the Defense Ministry has taken less care about this particular information and they have been issuing letters and kept other people informed, their eleven divisions. But no serious actions, apparently no serious actions taken to apprehend those who are behind these attacks. On by 11th of April the Sri Lankan authorities knew the names and the places these culprits were living, but no serious actions were taken according to the government information that came out. There was a press conference and the government of course clarified that police jolly well knew who's behind it. Now according to Sri Lanka authorities a cult, it's not an organization, named as National Thowheed Jama'ath, which we haven't heard before, is responsible. And no foreign supporters were seen and all these explosions were triggered by suicide bombers.

DM: To target churches on Easter weekend, is there any explanation for that?

AH: Well not really because this particular organization was not known and like six months ago they had attacked a couple of Buddhist temples and they have destroyed the Buddhist, Buddha statues. And well since then it died down and now it has become a problem for the country.

DM: And now the government has access to social media sites, messaging apps. Why have they done that?

AH: Because now Sri Lanka, if you check closely, we had a civil war, which lasted like it's more like a fight against terrorism that lasted over three decades and 10 years ago the government forces took the victory. And since then certain incidents took place where minorities were harassed and social media of course played a big role where rumours and fake news spread the violence. So this time government being a little precautious about the incidents and knowing how it would go they temporarily freezed social media, if I named the Facebook, YouTube and WhatsApp and Viber.

DM: So what impact will it have do you think? I mean after 10 years of peace, what impact will it have?

AH: Well I mean the pieces of course yes, it is you know the question at the moment. And well as far as we Sri Lankans are concerned, we are deeply worried because we never had issues with, serious issues as such with the Muslim community. Although it's not Muslim community, it's a very minority and those who are involved in it. So apart from that these attacks will have serious repercussions and effect badly on our tourism industry because Sri Lanka is a well known destination around the globe for tourism and a lot of tourists arrive here throughout the year.

DM: You mentioned the tourism industry, obviously hotels were also targeted. What is Sri Lankan government hearing from foreign governments whose nationals were killed in this?

AH: Actually travel warnings were raised, but now it's a little too late for those because the government, especially the police should have act responsibly earlier. So now the buzz is gone and well we hope atleast the government would take necessary action and bring all those culprits to book in the days to come.

DM: Ashwin Hemmathagama, thank you very much for sharing your thoughts with us.

AH: Thank you.

DM: Ashwin Hemmathagama is a senior journalist and Sri Lankan correspondent for VWN. He's in Colombo, Sri Lanka. And a few more developments, a van exploded earlier today as police tried to diffuse three bombs found inside. It was parked near a Sri Lankan church that was bombed on Easter Sunday. No one was injured in the most recent blast. And Sri Lankan authorities say they found 87 bomb detonators in the capital, near a bus depot and garbage dump. Sri Lankans in Canada have reacted with grief and horror. Jude Aloysius is president of the Tamil Catholic community in Toronto and he's with me in our Toronto studio. Hello.

JUDE ALOYSIUS: Hello Duncan. Good morning.

DM: What went through your mind when you heard about these attacks?

JA: We were very sadly troubled by what has happened. We were at a Easter vigil service at our Tamil parish and as the end of the service was coming to an end, that's when we started hearing that the bombs have gone in a church and especially St. Anthony's church is very well known in the community and it was very sad to hear that people had gone to worship and to celebrate Easter came out in body bags, killed and hurt in this process and this is a very terrible and a very sad day.

DM: You mentioned St. Anthony's Church. It's a significant one. Why?

JA: St. Anthony's if you talk to a lot of the Sri Lankans is known as the superstar of the saints. A lot of the Tamil community, not only the Catholics even the Hindus go to his shrine and to pray and to pray through him to ask for favours or you know to help with their troubles. And a lot of them have been successful. They've been able to get cured of you know their troubles have been taken away praying to St. Anthony's, through St. Anthony's and he's very well known in the South East Asia. Even here in Canada, every Tuesdays, we do have a St. Anthony's prayer service happen at our church as well. And to happen at a shrine, it is very troubling.

DM: I mean you're in the middle of your Easter Sunday service when you got this news. So how do people in your congregation and in your Catholic community feel knowing that Catholics were targeted?

JA: It is very troubling. It is very troubling. When you go to a church to pray, you hope to get back home safe and you don't want to go back home in a body bag or in parts. So in anywhere, in any part of the world, the places of worship should be protected and you know people going to worship places should be able to go and pray and get back to their family or to their home safely.

DM: What are your fellow parishioners hearing from their friends and family about how people in Sri Lanka are affected right now?

JA: Right now it is a very confused state right now. As you mentioned before there are bombs that are still going off and they're trying to diffuse it. And it's troubling to know that so many bombs that have been able to be set up in the capital and the security forces did not know anything about it or do anything about it. That is the most troubling part, as they had been known that there is a threat and this threat has not been taken very seriously. And if you see of the people who are killed, there's large percentage of Tamils who got killed during this blast. So you know the international government, everybody should take this very seriously and get to the bottom of it to see who is behind it, why this was done and especially whoever who did this should be brought to the maximum of the law that can punish them with.

DM: You mentioned the word troubling a couple of times. I mean there's so many travelling aspects of this, but I wonder what impact you think this attack is going to have on the fractured community, the Sri Lankan community?

JA: So you know the civil war that was there and most of the Tamils who have come here and they have gone through this troubling times before and now to see this thing starting in a different format, it is very troubling for the community. You know before it was between the Tamils and the government and now the Tamils are being attacked by so-called the rebels or the radical, so far I'm hearing is the radical Muslim group that's been behind this. So it is very troubling that the Tamils have been targeted this way. So the community here is very worried of what is next to come for the Tamils in Sri Lanka.

DM: I imagine there's been an awful lot of work done in terms of reconciliation in the past ten years to keep that peace. Are you worried that this is going to be a setback?

JA: It all depends on how the government deals with this issue. Right. If they go forth then try and find out who is behind it and you know bring them to face the law to the maximum and try and apprehend all the people who are behind it then there might be somewhere, but otherwise it is troubling to see that it was allowed to happen. It is very troubling at this time.

DM: What is the community here in Canada trying to do to help folks in Sri Lanka?

So this coming Thursday we have organized mass at Our Lady of Good Health parish. That's a parish location at 131 Birchmount Road at 7:30pm. We are inviting everyone to come and to take part in the mass to pray for the souls as well as to pray for the people who have injured so that they recover and to try and see how we can help the community or the people who are affected. Especially if we're able to give any financial donations through here, collect and sent to them in helping rebuild the church or to the affected families because mostly when a breadwinner gets affected in our country, then the whole family faces a struggling path. So we're trying to see how our community can rally and collect something and be helpful to the community.

DM: Thank you for joining us.

JA: Thank you very much Duncan for having me.

DM: Jude Aloysius is president of the Tamil Catholic community. He's in Toronto. Though it's been almost ten years since the end of the Sri Lankan civil war, the country is still dealing with significant ethnic and religious divisions. My next guest says no matter who's responsible for yesterday's attacks, the country's future political stability is precarious. Alan Keenan is Sri Lanka project director with the International Crisis Group. We reached him in London, England. Hello.

ALAN KEENAN: Hi.

DM: How surprised were you to hear the news of what happened?

AK: Well very surprised, shocked, upset, depressed. I mean this is the last thing Sri Lanka needs and it's really quite unprecedented, both the scale of the attacks and the apparent source of the attacks. There has never been any Islamic extremist violence in Sri Lanka ever before and this group which is now being who the government is pointing to as the culprits is is unheard of. So a lot of people are scratching their heads even as they're in mourning trying to sort out what's going on.

DM: What does it tell us that the attack appears to have been coordinated, involving so many targets?

AK: Well it suggests that it's well organized. I mean we still have to figure out the details of what actually happened and how well coordinated it was, but clearly it was a serious effort and a lot of different targets across the island, different sorts of targets and you know with a lot of explosive power. And that's just not, that's just sort of off the radar in Sri Lanka. Now Sri Lanka of course did live through 26 years of very severe violence between the Tamil Tiger separatist organization, which used terror attacks tactics, which had suicide bombers, which blew up civilian targets and a government which was also quite ruthless in its prosecution of the war. So Sri Lanka has seen terrible violence between the representatives of different communities, but even with that in that context, this is really quite shocking. 290 plus people killed in a single set of attacks.

DM: It is such a diverse country with that history of the civil war. Can you explain the mix of ethnicities and religions in Sri Lanka and who might be interested in targeting Christians in this way.

AK: Well yes I can, but let me just begin, I mean I think one of the big questions is that we're not sure that this the motivations or the dynamics that drove these attacks are really Indigenous to Sri Lanka. So it strikes me, it's more likely that this is, while Sri Lankan Muslims seem to have been involved, they are driven by and working with and sustained by and working on an agenda from outside that doesn't necessarily have much to do with Sri Lanka. That's my reading. We'll wait and see what happens. But within Sri Lanka, there have been multiple lines of communal conflict. So the majority of Sri Lankans are Sinhalese ethnically and they speak Sinhala and most of them are Buddhist although there's a small community of maybe eight to ten percent who are Christian. Then there are also Tamils, couple of different Tamil communities, who make up roughly 10 to 15 percent of the population. They are mostly Hindu, but some are Christian. Many of the Christians are Catholics and then there are Muslims who are about ten percent of the population, who mostly speak Tamil, but many speak Sinhala. So these are the three main communities. There's also some smaller ones. The war was in the name of you know Tamil separatism, the demand for a Tamil homeland to in response to what many Tamils felt was discrimination from the majority of Sinhalese population, which has always controlled the government. But that has sort of played itself out. The underlying causes of that conflict have not really been addressed, but there has been peace on that front. But since the end of the war, there has been rising tensions directed towards Muslims by groups of Sinhalese who say that their main religion Buddhism is under threat from Muslim extremism as they call it. Now until recently, there really was no evidence of Muslim extremism. There is evidence of Muslim fundamentalism for lack of a better word, you know austere forms of Islam becoming more popular among Muslims in Sri Lanka, but there's been no violence directed at other communities by Muslims until yesterday.

DM: So you said it seems to have, there's lots to be learned yet, but it seems to be pointing toward an Islamist group right now. So how is this attack going to affect the political tensions that you've just described?

AK: Well that's the big question. I mean what worries me is how the violence directed at Christians and foreigners by what appears to be an Islamist group with at least some Sri Lankans involved, how that will exacerbate and play into and be used as evidence for all the fears about Muslims that have been sort of built up over the last five six years of campaigning by these militant Buddhist groups. So you know I think the key thing will be for the government and security forces that you know police and army and everyone else, to make absolutely sure that there's no reprisal attacks on the Muslim community in Sri Lanka for the acts of a very few of their community because I think it's really important for your readers to know that after six or seven years of sustained attacks on Muslims by radical Buddhist elements, attacks on mosques, attacks on businesses, houses burned out, a campaign of hate speech on social media, despite all of that, there has never been a response, a violent response from Muslims in Sri Lanka. There never have been a temple, a Buddhist temple attacked, no monks attacked. There have been great restraint and great maturity on the part of the Muslim community and so we don't want to lose that and I think the Muslim community has been very careful. They understand they're a vulnerable minority and they dont want to do anything to provoke further pressure from you know from radical groups among among the Sinhalese. So that's what we have to be focusing on I think now, even as the police do their work of tracking down whoever was behind this and bringing them to justice.

DM: Thank you for joining us.

AK: You're welcome.

DM: Alan Keenan is Sri Lanka project director with the International Crisis Group. He was in London, England. CBC News is next. Then tomorrow marks one year since the horrific van attack on Toronto's Yonge Street. I'll speak to family members of one of the victims, Anne Marie D'Amico, about the meaningful way they've chosen to honour her memory. I'm Duncan McCue, sitting in for Anna Maria Tremonti, and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Family of woman killed in Toronto van attack donates piano to Mel Lastman Square

Guests: Rocco D’Amico, Nick D’Amico

DM: Hi. I'm Duncan McCue, in for Anna Maria Tremonti, and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

DM: In New Brunswick and Quebec, people are contending once again with massive spring flooding. Bigger and more damaging floods seem to be a new feature of life in this country, just like ferocious forest fires and melting permafrost, depending on where you live. It's a reminder on this Earth Day that the climate is fragile and appears to be changing fast. Scientists say we have 11 years to act. In half an hour, we'll bring you highlights of The Current's special, 11 Years: A Blueprint for Climate Action. But first, a return to Toronto's Yonge Street to remember.

[Music]

DM: Tomorrow marks the first anniversary of that devastating van attack on Yonge Street in the north end of Toronto. Ten people were killed when a man drove a rented van into groups of pedestrians along a two kilometre stretch. A year later, it's an act of shocking violence that people in the community remember vividly.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: I went underground when like into the subway when his van pulled up and when I came up at Finch, all I could see was the firefighters and just the destruction that he had left behind.

VOICE 2: I actually saw the police was chasing the car after because I was facing that intersection. Half an hour later I saw those posts online. I saw those pictures and I saw the police was parking and they're blocking the street.

VOICE 3: Exactly where the tragedy took off is where we, my wife and I, start our walk and we walked this exact path. We haven't done it since. One of the victims was actually our neighbour. She's made a remarkable comeback, but she was in fact one of the victims up towards Finch Avenue. She was on her way to the library at the time.

VOICE 4: So on that day I was going to skip one of my classes and it was right around when the attack happened and one of my friends is like oh no don't, you have a quiz, so I didn't. Then I heard about the attack and no one was really taking it seriously, but then we heard like that people had died and we were all so shaken. Since then like there was a memorial for the people and like I remember there used to be like a lot of flowers around here and like pictures of the people who passed and it was scary and sad to see, but it also made me feel a little hopeful to see that there is still a community. There's still togetherness and there's still like good people in this neighborhood and that it's not all bad.

VOICE 5: I remember just thinking oh my goodness, how are we going to recover from this? How are we going to walk Yonge Street again without fear or without that haunting or that darkness being part of it? My name is Lilly Cheng. I am the co-founder of WeLoveWillowdale and we're here in Mel Lastman Square where under the gazebo and actually this piano was donated by the D'Amico family and you know they lost their daughter in the tragedy. And you know music was a significant part of our grieving journey and we had this dream oh maybe we could have a piano where random acts of music could happen. I think we're going to try to get some tuning happening, but there is something beautiful about a piano that is slightly out of tune. It has history. It maybe it has had its own trauma and so perhaps its imperfection is perfect for what we're organizing.

[Sounds of piano]

DM: Just a few voices of people we spoke with in Mel Lastman square one year after the deadly attack. It gives you a sense of how many people were touched by the events of April 23rd, 2018. Tomorrow people will gather in that square again to remember those who were lost. As you heard, one of the victims was Anne Marie D'Amico. She was 30-years-old and remembered by friends and family as a passionate volunteer. Since the attack, her family has been deeply involved in community efforts as a way to recover. Her father Rocco D'Amico and her brother Nick D'Amico are with me in our Toronto studio. Hello.

ROCCO D'AMICO: Good morning.

NICK D'AMICO: Thank you.

DM: Nick, I know that piano was supposed to be an anonymous gift, but the word is out now. It seems like your gesture has really touched people. What's it like to hear it being played?

ND: Well I hope it brings a sense of healing. Hope it kind of provides some sort of way for somebody to express you know their sense of how they feel and provide them a sense of comfort that was really kind of our objective. It wasn't meant to be anything that we were trying to do, it was just more of we had this opportunity, if guys you needed something that can help the city, can help other people, if you want it, here this is for you. So we had hoped it would be anonymous, but it sounds like it unfortunately it didn't turn out that way.

DM: Rocco, I saw you close your eyes when you heard the piano being played. What went through your mind when you heard those notes?

RD: Well yeah it's just basically for us it's about love and this particular event was based on hate, which is horrible. So for us the idea that music is something that brings people together and we're very happy about that.

DM: Nick, this is a community that you've gotten to know now, Willowdale. And I heard one of those voices say, how are we going to recover after that. What do you see about how the community of Willowdale is coming together since the attack last year?

ND: Well I think it's just, it really comes down to I mean whether it's Willowdale, whether it's us, whether it's anyone else I think you know having a sense of purpose and being positive about you know what's ahead of you. You know it's so easy for us. We've been trying to really try and focus on as many positive things as possible moving forward. So you know there is no right or wrong answer to those types of things and I think you know recovering, a lot of part of it is just trying to be you know try and find a way to move forward and trying to find a way to stay positive. That's kind of always trying to be our mantra to this past year.

DM: Rocco can you tell us a little bit about your daughter, Anne Marie. What was she like?

RD: Oh my goodness, the biggest trait that I've loved about my daughter was her loyalty. Loyalty to her work, her family. She's just one of those humanitarians, really good soul that really cared about trying to make other people happy.

DM: She volunteered a lot.

RD: Yeah. She was everywhere.

ND: She found great joy in that.

DM: Why what was it that she liked about volunteering so much?

ND: You know what she would come back and tell us a story about how she went and did some volunteering out in Dominican Republic and it really touched her that she was able to provide this comfort and help build homes for somebody. She came back and was just you know had a whole new perspective on how good we have it and how good things are here compared to other parts of the world. So I think having you know that little piece of knowledge and a little piece of understanding of other people and what they've been through and what you're going through and how it might be different, you know kind of puts the whole thing in perspective. And maybe you know when you're going through things it may not be as bad as it could be for somebody else. I think that really brought a lot of joy to have that kind of introspection.

DM: And tell me a little bit about your relationship with her Nick.

ND: I was always the protective older brother. I always try and I remember one time when we were in grade school, I remember she was, someone told me she was crying in one of the schoolyards, so I ran across as far as I could to just kind of see if she was okay and she told me, no I'm fine. I'm like oh okay, that's good. And I came back, but I always kind of had that sense like I wanted to make sure that everyone treated her right and no one kind of did anything to harm her, try and be there, you know try and do anything to her.

DM: You're wearing a bracelet. Can you tell me what's on the bracelet?

ND: It was donated by Tennis Canada and it said, "What what would Anne Marie do?" and she was a volunteer there for almost 20 years and won Volunteer of the Year there about two or three years ago and this is just kind of something like a constant memory of all the good things that she brought to people's lives, especially ours. And it's really a way to kind of look down and kind of ground yourself. It definitely grounds me to think you know what would she do in this situation? What kind of positive thing would she bring to the situation and how can I be more like that? How can I bring that out of myself. So that's definitely something that's always with me now.

DM: Rocco, what's it been like over this past year trying to cope with the loss of Anne Marie?

RD: It all depends on what day you're asking me I guess. It's literally sometimes minute by minute. So right now I had a little bit of a moment, but regrounded myself, but it's so many dark days. It goes without saying. As someone professionally told me I have to land on something positive and that's the only way you can get yourself out of the hole, but brutal, yeah.

ND: You can't, you can't imagine. Well there are so many times where you think you're okay and then all of a sudden, you get, something just triggers you and all of a sudden you kind of hit a moment of deep kind of sorrow and then all of a sudden you can kind of pick yourself back out of it. Sometimes you can't. You know it's this specific incident was so layered because it was so so tragic and it was so internationally and Gil and Nick Nikesh nationally internationally recognized that you know kind of it was difficult it was difficult to kind of had everything thrown at you all at once. And what helped you make sense of it if you can even now you know oddly enough stuff like this has actually contributed to my healing. You know for the longest time I'd walk into a room and I don't know who knows my sister or knows that I was her brother and I knows that it happened to me and it was really awkward for myself to kind of be in that social setting because I'm willing to talk about it. I felt openly willing to talk about it, but not everyone has that ability or not wanting to feel that they're comfortable doing it and not a lot of people want to bring up that story. When people have asked us, we're happy to kind of provide our sense of how we're dealing with it and what we're trying to handle things moving forward, so to have this opportunity to speak about it is almost cathartic. So it wasn't easy to kind of make these decisions to kind of do it, but I felt you know maybe I need it. Maybe this is something we need to kind of help move forward.

DM: You as a family have done something else as well. You've launched a foundation in Anne Marie's name. You've pledged support for the North York Women's Shelter, the new building that they're building that's under construction right now. Our producer Julie hrysler visited their executive director, Mohini Datta-Ray. So let's hear what Mohini had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: To have a family that has been impacted so greatly by violence come and support an organization that supports women who are you know fleeing violence means the world. And it is really you know survivors who are at the centre of the work that we do. It's survivors that basically tell us what we need to build, what the needs are. And the D'Amicos are a family of survivors and their support has just been invaluable.

DM: What does it mean to hear that from Mohini Datta-Ray?

ND: They have helped us. They're an incredible group of women who have this passion that have hopefully kind of matched our passion, but I mean would love to talk about the foundation another day, maybe not so much today, but I think that has been so incredibly helpful for us to have a focus like that to help us kind of work through us through what we're trying to work through and be positive and trying to do something positive. That is really what the whole essence of it was and also to kind of create something in honour of my sister and something she represented. So to hear something like that from Mohini who is just an incredible soul and someone who has been so with us through this and so compassionate and been providing a bit of crutch for us at points. It's just so heartwarming to hear.

DM: Rocco, the North York Women's Shelter, why that particular cause in Anne Marie's name?

RD: Well first of all it was in the area where more or less where it all kind of happened. Anne Marie worked there for about a year, witnessed a lot of the violence that women suffer and try to survive. And they just have state of the art program. This building they're building, they're about I don't know, $9 million into it. We're trying to complement another three million for them. They're just state of the art. You know trauma informed, it's just like all research based and we thought well this is something we want to be able to help out. And may be something can be modelled going forward.

ND: Just to attach ourselves and try and attach us to something like this where they're trying to do something so great that's kind of you know it's been inspiring for us as well. So I hope we're kind of motivating each other to kind of do better together. That's really been a big part of it.

DM: You mentioned that it helps you to give back in that way. How so?

ND: You know, it's a conversation for, a deep conversation that I'm not sure I'm well versed in explaining, but I for me it's just how I try and handle adversity. Just try and move forward with positivity and do better things. Just try and find a way to kind of let that bring you forward. That's really what I've tried to do and I think what we've tried to do as a family to try and that has been our approach that we have found helpful for us. We can't really you know every person has their own story, every person has their own way of dealing with it, no right way or wrong way, but we felt that was how we felt would be a good way to handle it.

RD: Collectively as a family, absolutely.

ND: It's brought us closer together for sure.

DM: I mean often when family goes through tragedy I mean it can be incredibly bring about the most incredible tension. Obviously it's brought you closer together.

RD: Like magnets.

ND: You know, you don't think about that. I mean you think about maybe you'll have thoughts of losing someone, you don't think about the after effect of what it might do to everyone who loved her so much and loved someone so much. You never thought about the connections you would have or what it might do and you know it has brought the four of us and my wife, the five of us and my daughter as well, all of us much closer together. We kind of have this ability to kind of feed off each other and work together when you know if there's three of us down, one of us is okay that can help everyone else kind of be okay. We all just work together to try and pick each other up and through the work of the foundation, we have conversations, twice a day, three times a day, e-mailing. Like we're all very involved and it's really brought us close together and in a weird way we almost owe it to my sister who passed away like it's just really weird to say that.

DM: Were there connections that you discovered about Anne Marie that you didn't know about before in the past year?

RD: Well I've repeated this story so many times. It's just these little things that we wouldn't hear about it because she just wouldn't come in and say hey dad I did this or mom I did this. And the most recent one that just happened less than two or three weeks ago, one of her, she called her work cousin and how she was motivated into doing what Anne Marie drawed out of her basically to go back to school and take some upgrading courses and more importantly to get her driver's license. This was something that kind of connected the way Anne Marie interacted with her fellow workers, family, anybody she connected with.

DM: It seems that it was part of Anne Marie's personality I mean in terms of the volunteering work that she did that she wanted to help build others up.

ND: She really tried to and it's not that she just did it because she wanted to do it, she wanted to do it because she wanted to make a difference. She wanted to be there for somebody. She really wanted to be a supporting figure for whoever she felt connected with. You know it could be anybody. It really could have been anybody. So I think we're lucky to have a role model like that in our lives that we can, that we're going to think about every day that we can use moving forward. Unfortunate circumstances, she's not here physically, but spiritually and she's within us and she's we have that to look to on a daily basis if we need to.

DM: And I know you both made it pretty clear that you don't want to talk about the foundation today too much. It's not about that so much, but I do wonder if it is providing you strength to do that work in her name, what else has offered you support over this past year?

RD: Well for us, family, our friends, neighbors, it's just been and generally the city, it's just been overwhelming love that they've shown towards us. It's not just one thing, it's a combination of all these things combined has helped us really figured out how to be positive and everything.

ND: We know that although we were the ones most directly affected, this was a city-wide tragedy. This was something that went national. This is something that went international. People from New Zealand and China reaching out to us who we knew out there. So we're very cognizant of that and the fact that everyone tried to do what they could and everyone tried to come together and everyone as a community came together to try and get through this and recover. That was so nice for us. We felt like we had that on top of the immediate frontline support that we had. We also had that because we got to look at other people trying to get together and do better together as a community and that was also very, very inspiring. It helped us move forward.

DM: You mentioned you don't want to talk about the trial, but tomorrow is the anniversary of the attack. So what will you be doing as a family to mark it?

ND: We haven't really decided yet. We don't know how we're going to feel. We were talking about this the other day and it's.

RD: Well more than a months, but it's difficult. We just don't know how we're going to feel that day. I know one thing for sure, we're going to start off by going to church. So from there and then I'm going to go visit her at her cemetary, but after that who knows.

ND: Yeah this was, I had a conversation with my wife, it's like what are we supposed to do, get up, put up a suit and go and see her? Like it's not the funeral. What is this? You know what are we doing? What are we trying to accomplish, you know? We're not trying to relive that day, but we're not trying to forget that day either. You know we're trying to find a way to let that help us and remember and my sister and remember those other victims and the first line responders and everyone who were involved in this, a way to remember how everyone kind of came together. I think that's you know above and beyond our own sorrow. You know I think that's definitely one we were looking at. So we don't really know what it's going to bring.

DM: Is there a particular memory of Anne Marie, that you'll have on that day?

ND: It seems like every time you do something, every time you see something, every time you take a step almost, it's like another memory comes in or some, her, the way she was kind of is, her presence is there, you know. But an actual moment.

RD: I really, for me personally, I really don't want to talk about that day, but I have some memories that are basically singed in my brain, but I don't know if I'm capable of speaking about that, but it's your daughter. It's the last time you see her. What can you possibly say? It's just very difficult. That's all I got to say. It's very difficult to piece out something that day. There's so many minutes that went by and hours, it's just so much.

ND: I think it's just going to kind of come when it comes on that day. We'll know how we're going to be thinking about her and what we're going to be thinking about and I think it's just going to be by moment. We're just kind of, that's all we're going to do. I don't think we're going to have anything that jumps out until it jumps out.

RD: Yeah.

DM: I want to thank you for sharing your healing journey with us.

ND: Thank you.

RD: Hopefully it helps other people too. That's one of the reasons why we're here. Maybe to motivate someone else to get out of their darkness.

DM: Thank you both.

ND: Thank you so much.

RD: You're welcome. Thank you for having us.

DM: Nick D'Amico's sister, Anne Marie, was among those killed in the van attack in Toronto last year. Rocco D'Amico is Anne Marie's father. They joined me in our Toronto studio.

[Music]

DM: I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to The Current. I've got a moment to let you know about a conversation coming up tomorrow. Anna Maria Tremonti will talk to federal NDP leader Jagmeet Singh. He's just taken his seat in Parliament ahead of this fall's election and he's published a memoir too. He writes about events in his past that have shaped him, some of them traumatic events, that he's sharing for the first time. Jagmeet Singh remembers vividly when he began facing racism and bullying.

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VOICE: I at some point it was around when I was in grade 2, I felt that Jimmy didn't really reflect who I was and I wanted to be Jagmeet. And to start wearing my hair in the traditional way, with the patka tied up in a top knot. Right after that I remember vivid experiences of bullied, picked on for looking different, folks trying to pull the patka off my head, pull my hair and trying to and making fun of my name. That was very common. It was really confusing as a kid because I thought I'm the same person that I was just you know last year in grade 2 and in grade 3, all of a sudden I started getting bullied for the way I looked. So it was something that it was shocking, but in a lot of ways I felt like just because I'm being bullied for something, I don't want to give it up. I don't want to back down, so I thought let me not give in to this pressure. So I really wanted to resist it, but it was something that was really frustrating and sometimes it was scary. I tried to hide the fear by being tough, but it was a tough time.

DM: Join Anna Maria tomorrow to hear her interview with federal NDP leader Jagmeeet Singh. Coming up in our next half hour, how to mobilize for climate change. We'll revisit The Current's special, 11 Years: A Blueprint for Climate Action. I'm Duncan McCue, in for Anna Maria Tremonti, and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

11 Years: A Blueprint for Climate Action

DM: I'm Duncan McCue in for Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

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VOICE: I want you to act as if the house was on fire. I have said those words before and a lot of people have explained why that is a bad idea. A great number of politicians have told me that panic never leads to anything good and I agree to panic unless you have to, it's a terrible idea. But when your house is on fire and you want to your house from burning to the ground then that does require some level of panic.

DM: That is 16-year-old climate activist Greta Thunberg addressing the European Parliament last week. She was taking leaders to task for inaction on climate change, pointing out that the EU has held three emergency summits on Brexit and none on climate. Here in Canada scientists have warned that this country's climate is warming twice as fast as the global average and that this change will create more extreme weather, including devastating wildfires, heatwaves, droughts and flooding. Thousands of people in parts of New Brunswick and Quebec are facing that new reality now. Massive spring floods have hit more than 1200 homes and displaced more than a thousand Quebecers. Many more are on alert. It's a reminder on this Earth Day that the climate appears to be changing fast. Scientists say we have 11 years to act to avoid climate disaster. That's what motivated The Current to bring you a special program earlier this season with Anna Maria Tremonti, 11 Years: A Blueprint for Climate Action. So today we're going to revisit highlights of that special beginning with the voices of some of those with the most at stake.

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VOICE 1: I would want the grownups to stop using their cars and like wasting electricity and stuff for where you don't actually need it.

VOICE 2: I think we should have more vegans or vegetarians.

VOICE 3: I'm ticked off about straws. They're stupid. You use them once. They come with your happy meal. You stick it into a drink and you drink out of this little tiny plastic tube. Why do you need a plastic tube to drink your juice? Just drink it normally.

VOICE 3: Individuals could reduce using gasoline cars and they could start using electric or solar panel.

VOICE 4: You don't have to have a big fancy rich life. Like my friend Maria is hoping to have a big three story building that is clear, except for the bathroom. And she wants to have a plane of her own. You don't have to have a life like that. I want to live by the pond in the cottage, one level cardioids. That is simple. Why do you have to live in a gigantic three storey building all toyour self.

AMT: There you go. Some of the people who will judge the decisions we make now about how we're going to live in the future. We invited two Canadians with different perspectives to talk to each other about the decisions they think we have to make.

JACKIE WALL: My name is Jackie Wall and I live in a small community just east of Estevan, it's Bienfait and I am currently the executive director of the Estevan chamber of commerce.

HAYLEY ZACKS: Hi. My name is Hayley Zacks. I am here in Halifax unceded Mi'kmaq territory. I am a 21 year old student at Dalhousie, studying sustainability and international development and I'm part of a collective called Youth Rising which is young people from coast to coast in Canada demanding real climate action now. In the next 11 years I think that we need to transition to a 100 percent renewable energy and create 1 million climate jobs in the process. We need to meaningfully implement the U.N. Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous peoples, and in the next 11 years we need to keep fossil fuels in the ground, and align the federal climate plan with a 125 degree threshold.

JACKIE WALL: I believe in the next 11 years we as a country definitely need to be conscious of climate change, but we need to do that in a way that is both socially and economically viable. We need to take a look at the entire impact on the social lives of the people transitioning out of fossil fuels. And we really need to take a look at solutions that will accommodate all of the products that are supported by fossil fuels and petroleum products. They penetrate every aspect of our life. You find them even anti histamines an in tyres and in vitamin capitals and telephones and just about everything you touch has a petroleum product at its base. So we need to be conscious of that also as we move forward.

HAYLEY ZACKS: I think that I was really excited to have this conversation because we align so much in terms of jobs and address translation. I think as young people were really concerned about what our future looks like in the climate era. So what that means is also sustainable jobs for us because we've seen in Canada with the natural resource economy the boom and bust cycle has been so unsustainable with [unintelligible] and things like that. That's really scary for my generation because we know that we're moving towards a future where those jobs don't exist, but we're not seeing the transition happen to me that decline.

JACKIE WALL: I absolutely agree with you Haley. I can speak to this very personally because I have as that works in the fossil fuel industry. He works at the coal mine here. And in the next several years we are going to lose hundreds of jobs in our community, hundreds. And once again it is because of a federal initiative, which is fine if the federal government has a plan to transition these workers. We have been part of the dialogue but everything is still up in the air. We don’t have details and it does not look like there is a plan to transition these workers or this community and that is a huge concern of mine. Another concern is that I have two young kids. When the power goes out here at minus 40, it does not take long for your home to get very very cold. And wind generated power does still need backup. So we still need the fossil fuels as the backup for the renewables. I wish that was a different case. Perhaps it will be moving forward in the future, but at this time, when it gets so cold in this part of the world, we just need to know that were able to heat our homes.

HAYLEY ZACKS: I think that’s a really valuable point to make. And I think that what it shows us is that the government doesn't have a plan now for what that looks like. So we're seeing in Canada that we're going to get left behind if we don't start making this transition quickly. And what I think as youth inheriting this future, we see it in two ways. There's this side where we don’t transition properly and we come to a future that is in climate disarray, and there is no plan for how we meet that economically or socially and equitably. But then there's also this opportunity where we've been given 11 years, and 11 years to make changes really quickly. And as youth, as youth inheriting this future course scared for our generation we see the writing on the wall in a way that the government hasn't. This is our opportunity. We have 11 years to make dramatic changes quickly, if we are going to have a future that isn't a complete climate disaster. And so I think for me as a young person, and I really hope that in this moment when we're at such a tipping point that we take this as an opportunity to change the way that we do things here in Canada.

JACKIE WALL: Well you know here's here's my question. Canada can-- we can move forward as quickly as we want. We can adopt as many new practices as we want and I hope we do. I think we need to be an example for the world. That would be my dream. But realistically, across the globe, no matter how much Canadair transitions, we still will have a very very low impact on the world's carbon. We have a very small impact. That's not to say that we shouldn't be forward thinking and be more environmentally sound. I am not saying that at all. We do need to do our utmost and we do. On a global scale, we have some of the highest environmental start words. We are moving in to even better production for our power. But ultimately we have a lot of huge countries that are building coal plants, like, daily. And no matter how good Canada can move forward and move forward quickly, we're not going to have the impact. And speaking to that, Hayley, is also not just the environmental practices, but it’s also the social injustices that are happening. We’re bringing in oil from countries that have very low environmental standards, very low human rights standards. And I think we really have to start taking a look at that as well. I find it very frustrating. I'm very very frustrated because, yes, we should transition, but we really need to have other countries adopt what we have here in Canada.

HAYLEY ZACKS: Yes. Like you said, it is a global scale problem but it's also recognising when we're saying that, yes, maybe Canada is a small country relative to some other countries. Canada also is emitting way above its weight, especially when we're looking at per capita and historically. As a country we have benefited from these industries. It is actually our responsibility, in my opinion, to be the leaders in ending fossil fuel exports, ending fossil fuel imports and also the use of fossil fuels as quickly as possible. And also, regardless of what other countries are doing, we need to be doing it. I I've heard it in interviews us being called 'idealistic youth'. But I think that we're actually the only ones who are being realistic. We are being told by scientists this is a climate disaster and that we have 11 years to act. And so we were seeing that our government is refusing to act in these 11 years. And so were taking that responsibility on our young people because we will be listening to the science. We know what our future looks like if we don't act.

JACKIE WALL: You know that's fantastic. And Hayley I do have children. I have a 12 and a 14 year old at home. And I really want to be able to pass on a sound environment to them in a sound world, overall. I would like to know how you proposed that you were going to continue manufacturing the solar panels, manufacturing the wind turbines, manufacturing a lot of the products that we use daily when we're not going to be using petroleum products. You can take your bike to work which is in great environmental step, personally, but your tires on that bicycle have petroleum products in them. You can take your kayak and enjoy a wonderful scenery in our country, but that kayak contains petroleum products. I just don't right now see solutions coming from the grass roots. I think one of the biggest impacts we could have is personally, each one of us personally taking a look at our life and deciding, 'Can I support more local? Can I support more local farmers, more local growers? Can I take a look at how my carbon footprint is affecting the globe and start there?' But realistically there are so many industries and so many manufacturers that use petroleum products all the time. I mean even the wind turbines. If you're the bearing and you'll have to grease that, what are you going to use to grease that bearing a for not going to be utilizing petroleum products?

HAYLEY ZACKS: Yes. I don't think I have any disillusions about this being easy. I know this is going to be difficult and I do really agree with you that there is an individual impact that we can make, absolutely. But I think what we're talking about here is a global system that has, for generations, refused to look at the impact that we're having on the environment and not account that within our economy, that we haven't been seeing environmental impact as a cost. So I think we're talking at a much larger scale about shifting the way that we understand the environment and the way that we value an economy. Even just looking at Canada as an example in Canada worth subsidizing the fossil fuel industry. But what if we shifted that to renewable energy because even if we look at what's happened this year in Canada; our government committed4.5 billion dollars to purchasing a leaky pipeline and not to mention the costs of actually building it. Like we're looking at a 16 billion dollar bill right now. And for me, when I think about that I think about all the things that we could have done were 16 billion dollars in terms of making this transition easier in terms of not having the cost fall on communities, especially communities that are already impacted by climate change. We are talking indigenous communities and rural communities. I'm assuming, like your own end and the way that that money could have been shifted to making that transition possible, so that when you're talking about your kids we're not making a choice about being able to put food on the table and allow our kids to have a livable future, because that to me doesn't feel fair or just.

JACKIE WALL: Well I would have to say that I know people in the pipeline industry. One of them sits on my board actually and any time there is any kind of a leak, they have to go in there and clean it up to the top standards, I would say, in the world. So as far as pipelines go that is that it's not leaky. The other that I would like to say is they are doing very innovative things here with solar and with wind in our province and they are moving ahead as quickly as they can. But ultimately they also have a responsibility to the ratepayers so that the ratepayers aren't paying an exorbitant amount for their power, which we've seen in Ontario. And I never want to have my children in that position where they're taking a look at their monthly power bill and wondering how they are going to pay for it. There are subsidies for the solar and for the wind. I'm not against that. I am for anything that will make our world a better place. I used to be a farmer and a rancher. We very much changed the way we farmed and the way we ranched because we wanted to be able to provide the land to go forward in future generations. But we also realized that we have to be very careful in how we do that because it does have a huge impact socially and economically and we have to balance all of that. We really do.

HAYLEY ZACKS: Where I'm coming from is everything I'm hearing from you [unintelligible] is that how hard these decisions are and what that shows to me is that the way that we're functioning right now isn't sustainable as an economy. So what I'm saying is that right now, as a young person, I'm looking at my future in 11 years and I'm scared. And I think it is not just me with Youth Rising we are a collective, across the country, of youth that are genuinely afraid of what our future looks like. We're seeing mass wildfires. We're seeing flooding at extreme degrees and extreme weather events. That really make it fearful because we recognize that if this is what our future is going towards, then we're not going to actually have choices anymore because it's going to be too late. And so what I am hoping for in the next 11 years is that we take this moment, where our scientists at the IPCC are telling us that we have 11 years to make some extreme changes about the way that we ran our economy, about the way that we treat the planet, and that we actually take that call to action seriously. So what were doing is we're calling on our government. We're calling on the Canadian government right now who is responsible, who had came forward in the 2015 election saying that they were going to take climate leadership seriously. They showed up to Paris and said 'Canada is back', but as young people we haven't seen that at all. I don't feel secure right now in a climate safe future.

JACKIE WALL: Well I must say, Hayley you're very eloquent and you put forth a very very good argument. You’re right. We have not seen the leadership from this federal government. I guess that I would just-- it's a different perspective from where from where I sit. I have seen pipelines. I have seen pump jacks all the time, but continue, Hayley, continue doing what you're doing. I would really love it if there was a lot more passion and energy put into solutions as well. That's what I encourage of my children every day. And sometimes solutions don’t move as quickly as we would like them to but we just have to keep pushing. And we really don’t know what the next new technology around the corner is going to be. In BC one company is taking CO2 out of the air and producing fuel out of it. And if you and I Hayley can support that, and can get that adopted, just think of the amazing things that we could do. But we have to find those nuggets, those scientists and those innovative companies that are coming up with new solutions, and we need to support them, and we need to make sure that their new technology is adopted across the globe.

HAYLEY ZACKS: I want to thank you for your time Jackie. I think its really valuable to get to speak to people that are on the ground and living this transition. And I also want to say that I know you mentioned your mother and you're talking about solutions with your kids and so I do really value that and I value that it is going to be youth that are carrying this forward.

AMT: Thank you Hayley Zacks in Halifax and Jackie Wall in Bienfait, Saskatchewan.

AMT: We get it. You're one person. You're overwhelmed. Climate change is big and you are a little. So let's consult some psychologists. Robert Gifford is a professor of environmental psychology at the University of Victoria, that's where he is. Margaret Klein Salamon is a clinical psychologist and the founder and director of the Climate Mobilization. She's in New York City. Hi.

ROBERT GIFFORD: Hello, Anna Maria.

MARGARET KLEIN: Hey, thanks for having me.

AMT: Margaret Klein Salamon I want to start with you. When you talk about a World War II level mobilization to address climate change, what do you mean?

MARGARET KLEIN: We are calling for a 10 year crash transition to zero emissions plus drawdown and time to achieve full spectrum sustainability across issues. The idea being this is not a problem. We are too late in the game for gradualism to incrementally reduce emissions or for individualism. The idea that I'll take care of my emissions, you take care of your emissions and so forth. What we envision is a rapid transition of our entire economy and society with all hands on deck as most recently happened in our history during World War II. So for example some of the policies that would come from a war were to skip a climate mobilization would be the immediate bane of all new fossil fuel infrastructure, and a 10 year timeline for retiring the fossil fuel infrastructure that we do have, coupled - because we want to keep the lights on - with a massive scale up of renewable energy. So large government investment creating millions of jobs to both reduce demand, through things like winterizing homes, and just transform our energy system to renewable. We also have policies in agriculture transportation and industry that we promote but that's the basic scope okay.

AMT: And you make the connection to World War II actions. Remind us. What are some of the examples of individual and collective action people took during the Second World War in the US that you can imagine being applied to climate change?

MARGARET KLEIN: Well a great example is the victory gardens. So during World War II 40 percent of American vegetables were grown at home in the front and backyard by the people that ate them. We can farm our lawns and have community farms which increases you know local food security, and also you know you don't have emissions from transportation. But more generally, programs like transitioning industry. So the United States banned the production of new consumer automobiles because they said, 'We need all of that automobile factory capacity to create our tanks and planes and machineguns. And so no more consumer car production. Period. Sorry'. It's a fundamentally different mentality. When you get into the mode of 'we face an existential threat, everything is on the line'. And so the government is going to do everything that it can. The government should spend without limit to save as much life as possible.

AMT: So that is the war. This is war and we have a victory plan, idea. That's the mindset. think we need now in the face of climate change.

MARGARET KLEIN: I think it is the only thing that can protect us.

AMT: Robert Gifford, the climate scientists are saying this problem is urgent. Why aren't we seeing that kind of drastic action on this issue?

ROBERT GIFFORD: Well there are many reasons for that of course. All we have to do is look into our own lives and we see that there are psychological barriers, obstacles, I call them the dragons of inaction that hold us back in different ways. I could just list a few of them. We have other goals in life to be healthy which of course is related to climate change, but some sometimes people don't think of it in terms of climate change. We want to look after our children. We want to do a good job at work and so we have - I call this conflicting goals and aspirations or CGA. But there are a lot of other ones. A lot of people feel that their actions by themselves won't make much of a difference. There's distrust in some quarters of experts or government. There's usually some risks involved in making any kind of change in lifestyle. And a lot of people are risk averse. And sometimes people simply think the little bit that they do do is already enough.

AMT: You also talk about limited cognition. Why is climate change hard to think about?

ROBERT GIFFORD: Well as a couple of reasons but probably the most important ones are discounting of distance and discounting in time. That is, well, climate change is somewhere else with the polar bears are far away somewhere. And you know these people keep talking about 2050, 2070. You know, I've got to get to work right now and make breakfast. So we tend sometimes to live too much in the here and now and not think about what's coming and where it's happening.

AMT: Even people with kids?

ROBERT GIFFORD: Well of course, yes, because you know 'my child has cold, my child has to go to school and my child has homework'. And that's also on my kids. It's more immediate. It's more right in front of my face than climate change is for a lot of people.

AMT: Another drag on is social comparison. What is that?

ROBERT GIFFORD: We are social animals. And so we are - whether we like to admit it or not - we're very influenced by the other people around us, the important others around us. So if somebody we admire is driving to work or if we think it's our role in life is to drive and not to take public transport or if we think about that other country is doing it. Why should Canada do it? Why should we do it here? Then that tends to limit our actions.

AMT: There are a lot of dragons surrounding us.

ROBERT GIFFORD: There is a long story to that. You know there was seven drag, literally a total of seven at one point and I would give talks in different places and the people in the audience would say, well what about that? And so it's gradually grown from 10 to 13 to 18 to about 40 now.

AMT: The dragons are multiplying, reproducing. I want to come back to some of the World War II ideas. During World War 2, there were public awareness campaigns aimed at getting people involved in the war effort, both in the U.S. and in Canada. Listen to this.

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MOTHER: Jenny, this is for you and, Billy, this is for you. It's mother's Christmas presents.

BILLY: War bond.

MOTHER: Yes, Darling, war bonds.

BILLY: Gee. Thanks a lot, Mom, but...

JENNY: I wanted a bicycle.

MOTHER: I know you did, Jenny. And I know that Billy wanted a railroad, but I feel that you are both old enough to realize that your country's at war, and to be willing to make sacrifices for it. Just think if Daddy were wounded, one single war stamp might pay for the medicine that would save him from pain, even save his life.

AMT: Well there you go. That's Betty Davis in a war bond's campaign. Over the course of the war the U.S. raised more than 2.5 trillion dollars in today's dollars. Robert Gifford, what jumps out at you about the messaging in that ad?

ROBERT GIFFORD: What jumps out at me is that, frankly, I'm a little bit worried about the sacrifice aspect of it. Some people are willing like our other guest to engage in sacrifice, but sacrifice messages in my own research don't work as well as more positive messages attempting to explain climate change as an opportunity to make a better world, to empower people to take action, not to threaten them with dire messages. There's quite a bit of research that suggests that dire messages actually turn a lot of people off. So my approach would be more toward talking about what can be gained by being more of an activist. We all, at some level, want to help other people to build a better world, and to focus on this kind of positive empowering type of message and not that you can have a bicycle this Christmas.

AMT: Margaret what do we know about the kinds of sacrifices families made for the war effort?

MARGARET KLEIN: Well of course many millions made that ultimate sacrifice and meat was rationed, gasoline was rationed, tires were rash, pantyhose were rationed and other kind of household consumer goods, coffee, but those rations were for everybody. They were across the board the rich and poor got the same amount of gasoline.

AMT: Well you know there was resistance to making those sacrifices. We've got another clip here from the popular radio comedy show of the era, Fibber McGee and Molly.

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FIBBER: How do you think it's fair Molly? They can't do this to me. Four gallons a week. That's rediculous.

MOLLY: I think so too.

FIBBER: You do?

MOLLY: Yes. You don't need four gallons.

[Laughter]

FIBBER: I do too. I think it's a dirty deal. The whole thing is silly, giving all the car owners an [unintelligible] little medicine dropper full of gasoline. It is an infringement on private rights. That's what it is.

MOLLY: Look, dear, look, the main reason they're rationing gasoline is to save tyres. Don't you know that if we continue driving like we have been the majority of our motobiles will be off the road next year?

FIBBER: Good. There is too much traffic anyway.

AMT: Okay Margaret Klein Salamon that's comedy of course, it does give voice to some real concerns at the time, and it echoes a little bit of what people worry about today. How do you answer those worries when you hear them?

MARGARET KLEIN: I don't think it's going to be so easy. I think we're talking about major disruptions in every part of our economy and society. But here's the other side: the people who lived through World War II on the front, often looked back at it as some of the best years of their lives because they felt productively and meaningfully employed in a cause that was greater than them. And they felt connected to their neighbors and to their community and to their country and to their cause. And the hopefulness that Robert is talking about - and that many many people in the climate movement talk about - the hopefulness, yes we need that but it has to be based on reality and on telling the truth. And there is no hope for a smooth transition to zero emissions, for over decades, that kind of doesn't bother anyone. Maybe we could have done that if we had started it in the 70s but we did and emissions have gone up every year. And we need a crash transition to protect ourselves. And even if we do it, even if we execute the most austere year end intense transition to zero emissions, we still might not win. You don't know if you're going to win a war before you go into it. It's possible that the positive feedback loops that we've already triggered will overwhelm even our absolute best efforts to get to zero emissions, but we're not even trying now.

AMT: Robert Gifford what are you really thinking as you listen to her?

ROBERT GIFFORD: I'm thinking a few things. One of the dragons of inaction is uncertainty. And when we talk about 'well we might lose, we might win' that's going, in my view, to reduce the motivation of some people who say 'well if we don't know if we are going to win or lose, then why should I put out any effort?' So I tend to think that we have to take a generally positive tone with people rather than an uncertain - that uncertainty is an important thing or that we must sacrifice. The same action can be seen as a sacrifice or it can be seen as a heroic act. And I think that we need to frame it more in terms of people's heroism than their sacrifice.

AMT: The latest. IPCC report says we have to take drastic action by 2030 to avoid some very serious climate impacts. Robert Gifford do you think it will be possible for our society collectively to overcome dragon of inaction in time?

ROBERT GIFFORD: It's not a matter of whether I think it's possible. It simply must be done and you know there's just no question about it. To me to see what kind of approach do we used to doing it. Not everybody is able or willing to be a militant. So I'm thinking more of the average person who's working, trying to do his or her best, and how do we approach people, what kind of messages do we use for that kind of average person?

AMT: Margaret Klein Salamon what makes you so sure that emergency mobilization and climate change is possible?

MARGARET KLEIN: So one of the slogans we use at the Climate Mobilization is making the necessary possible. I see a lot of green shoots. Let's say a lot of momentum for this paradigm shift into emergency mobilization mode. And I think with every devastating fire in California, or flooding in Houston, or internationally of course these things are happening everywhere. It just drives the point home more and more. So whenever I talked to a politician or staffer I say, "Listen I ever said guarantee that I can give you. And that is that every month the climate crisis is going to be expressing itself with worse and worse devastation. So I advise you to stake out the strongest possible position on climate now and you're going to look like a frickin genius".

AMT: We will leave it right there. Thank you both.

ROBERT GIFFORD: Thank you Anna Maria.

MARGARET KLEIN: Thanks so much.

AMT: Robert Gifford is a professor of environmental psychology at the University of Victoria. Margaret Klein Slalmon is a clinical psychologist and director of the Climate Mobilization in New York City.

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ELIZABETH: My name is Elizabeth Curran and 10 years old and I live in Winnipeg. Being young person, what I find most concerning about climate change is that, like, animals can their homes, like polar bears if the ice melts.

ARTHUR: My name is Arthur. I'm nine years old. I live in Iqaluit. It's a bit scary because I live near the ocean. And if there is a glacier, that will also make the water go close to my house.

BEN: My name is Ben Biscayon. I am 15 and I live in Montreal, Quebec. I think that it's time for the governments to do big things but just because, just because the governments are doing big things doesn't mean that people should stop doing small things, that everyone should just, you know - without necessarily sacrificing everything, yet - just do what they can to reduce the footprint and help us not be doomed.

MIAO: My name is Miao Tistaot. I am 12 years old and I live in Winnipeg. The thing that scares me the most about climate change is literally everything. It's terrifying. It's kind of pushed to the side. And it's just, not knowing anything about it is kind of excuse me about it and just knowing that it's going to kill us if we don't do anything which we're not doing anything. That's the scary part.

PATRICK: My name is Patrick. I am 10 years old and I was born in China but now I live in Vancouver. Young children will experience far worse than the people living right now. Also scares me that floods, hurricanes and other natural disasters are way more likely than in the past five years. I think grownups should think that we actually should make an impact and not just sit back and let it happen.

DM: We've been listening to highlights of The Current's special, 11 years: A Blueprint for Climate Action with Anna Maria Tremonti. It first aired in December. And that's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for Q. Musician Adam Cohen is on the show to talk about his late father Leonard Cohen's posthumous collection of poems, The Flame. Remember you can always take The Current with you to go on the CBC Radio app. It lets you browse through past episodes of our show and it's free from the App Store or Google Play. It's a great price. I'm Duncan McCue. Anna Maria Tremonti is back tomorrow. Thanks for listening to The Current.

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The Current Transcript for April 22, 2019

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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Family of woman killed in Toronto van attack donates piano to Mel Lastman Square

11 Years: A Blueprint for Climate Action

Apr. 22, 2019 episode transcript

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