Conservatives may not win new voters, but will use SNC-Lavalin ethics report to galvanize base: pollster

Guests: Katie Simpson, Martin Patriquin, Sachi Kurl

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ANDREW SCHEER: Trudeau has already become the only prime minister in Canadian history to have been found guilty of breaking ethics laws. Now his first violation for accepting a paid vacation on a luxury Island from someone living his government was shocking. This one is unforgivable.

DM: Opposition Conservative leader Andrew Scheer was quick to respond to yesterday's report from Federal Ethics Commissioner Mario Dion. The main finding? Prime Minister Trudeau contravened the Conflict of Interest Act when he sought to influence former Justice Minister Jody Wilson-Raybould's decision on the SNC-Lavalin case. Jody Wilson-Raybould, for her part, says the report affirms the position she always took -- that what happened was inappropriate. The Prime Minister, as we heard, says he doesn't agree with all of the Ethics Commissioner's conclusions but still fully accepts the report and takes responsibility for what happened. Now with just 10 weeks to go before Canadians go to the polls on October 21st, the question is how all of this will play out on the campaign trail are a rotating national affairs panel is here to discuss. Katie Simpson is a senior reporter with CBC News covering mostly federal politics and she's in Ottawa. Martin Patriquin is a columnist for the Montreal Gazette and he's in Montreal. And Sachi Kurl is Executive Director of the Angus Reid Institute. She's based in Vancouver but she's here in Toronto today. Hello to you all!

KATIE SIMPSON & SACHI KURL: [together] Morning!

DM: Wow that's a cheery good morning!

MARTIN PATRIQUIN: Seriously, wooh! [laughs]

DM: Katie Simpson, let's start with you. What word would you use to describe this latest development?

KATIE SIMPSON: Oh, well I would say what a messy... what a mess the Prime Minister now has to sort through 10 weeks out from the election, you know. This is a point where Justin Trudeau had just started to recover from the SNC-Lavalin affair when it first broke back in February and dragged on for two months. They could not move past it. They had finally started to regain their positions in the polls 10 weeks out from an election. And now this bombshell of a report from the Ethics Commissioner is released. And if there was any ambiguity whatsoever around what happened behind the scenes, if Canadians were left well, 'Well he says this and she says that,' the Ethics Commissioner investigated what was going on, spoke to all parties involved, looked at the documents and he clearly came down on the same side as Jody Wilson-Raybould and the events that he presented as his findings of fact were very similar to what she presented in her testimony before the Justice Committee. So this is-

DM: Briefly, remind us exactly what's at the core of this. What did the Ethics Commissioner say that the Prime Minister did wrong?

KATIE SIMPSON: Well he says he broke the Conflict of Interest Act. He broke the rules. So he said that the Prime Minister flagrantly in many ways tried to bend the will of the attorney general and at the same time undermine her decision as well as the head of the public prosecution's decision to not grant SNC-Lavalin a deferred prosecution agreement. That's basically an agreement that allows a company to get out of a criminal prosecution in exchange for promises to reform as well as a payment of the fine as a way to protect jobs and not see jobs moved to different parts of the world or to lose jobs in a certain country. This was the situation before the Prime Minister. SNC-Lavalin, the Quebec engineering firm, had been lobbying the government for a DPA. They actually lobbied the government to change the law so that Canada would have this tool available. They lobbied, lobbied, lobbied. They were the ones that pushed to get this passed through an omnibus budget bill. This tool is available for Canadian prosecutors after that lobbying effort. But the Director of Public Prosecutions says, 'No, I don't think this is appropriate.' Jody Wilson-Raybould, the Attorney General, stands by that decision. The Prime Minister doesn't like it and that's when this influence campaign kicked off. And as the Ethics Commissioner said, there was many ways that Justin Trudeau directly and with his senior officials tried to bend the will of the Attorney General.

DM: And it's good to have that summary when we're in the midst of summer vacation here, many of us. Martin Patriquin, what stands out most for you about the Ethics Commission's findings?

MARTIN PATRIQUIN: You know just looking at it today and watching the reaction, everybody is outrageous - this panel notwithstanding of course. But you know, everybody's outraged. You have Andrew Scheer who's outraged, the Conservatives are outraged, the pundits are outraged. You know, certain Liberals are outraged at the outrage. I'm actually pretty happy. You know, you read through this 57 page summary and there is a lot of good in there. I mean look what happened. Katie just outlined it very well. PMO - the Prime Minister himself, the Finance Minister, the Treasury, the President the Treasury Board, the private- the Privy Council. Various legal advisers on the SNC payroll used their collective weight to sort of try to secure this - Katie mentioned it - the deferred prosecution agreement or the remediation agreement. You know, and did this for what? The lobbying effort was probably about four or four and a half months, probably over a dozen meetings and attempts to to get Jody Wilson-Raybould to change and change her mind. And it didn't work because the Attorney General did when an Attorney General is meant to do - that is to secure the independence of this country's prosecution and act as a guardian of public interests.

DM: Martin, Mr. Shear argues there should be an RCMP investigation into this. The RCMP say they're looking at it. How likely is that to happen?

MARTIN PATRIQUIN: That is that is the big question. You know, the enemy of any good scandal is time. And that's why we saw that that, you know, everybody again was outraged in the wake of the Globe and Mail story back in February. It lasted two, two and a half months and Justin Trudeau was able to come back from it. I think that, you know, we're at the tail end into the summer, we're going back into recession. We're pretty close to an election. It's bad for Trudeau. It's much, much worse if the police become involved.

DM: Sachi Kurl, Martin just mentioned we are at the tail end of the summer. Summer sometimes where where political scandal goes to die. But I mean what kind of... Is this going to be enough of a bombshell, as Katie describes, it to get Canadians' attention?

SACHI KURL: So a couple of things. You know, Martin talked about outrage. So are Canadians outraged? Are they outraged as they're listening to this from the cottage, or on the road trip, or just trying to squeeze those last days of summer? This has the potential to be sort of the public opinion equivalent of taking a five minute major in the third period just when the two teams have pulled even, just as the Liberals have started to cut a climb out of that hole, show some signs of momentum. I'm not saying it's an own goal but they're definitely back on the back foot. Here's what's happened. The people who were initially outraged, angry, really feeling PO'd about SNC-Lavalin migrated their votes a while ago. So those who went over to the Conservatives are going to stay with the Conservatives. There were a lot of, you know, traditional Conservative voters who tried out Justin Trudeau in 2015 and said, 'Well no not that guy.' The bigger issue for the Trudeau government now and for the Liberal campaign is what happens to those left-of-centre voters? A lot of them have started to drift and bleed all over the place. They're indicating for the NDP, they're indicating for the Greens, a lot of them are saying they're undecided - which is kind of code for I might not even show up and vote.

DM: Well you say undecided- I mean this is the second time that the Ethics Commissioner has as found Prime Minister Trudeau has committed wrongdoing. Is there a tipping point that they're just going to lose those voters?

SACHI KURL: Oh sure absolutely. Look, this is- I mean hey. I'm the analogy Queen. This is also the equivalent of couples counselling, you know?

PANEL: [laughs]

SACHI KURL: They were ticked off about something a while ago! And now, you know, we're talking about it again. Voters like, 'What? I remember why I was mad at you!' So what is happening in terms of where these movable, open, soft voters are. In -especially in ridings where they matter - is you start looking at things that are important to these voters and whether or not they give the party points in terms of being strong on that issue. So I can tell you that among soft voters the vast majority say that ethics and transparency is an issue that they personally really care about. And it's also an issue they don't give a lot of juice or a lot of credit to the Liberals on right now.

DM: The parties are certainly looking to score some points here. Didn't take long for opposition leaders to weigh in. Hear what NDP leader Jagmeet Singh had to say.

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NDP LEADER JAGMEET SINGH: First off, I always said we should believe Ms. Wilson-Raybould. People should believe her. It's clear that what she said was right. She was right. She was pressured. It was inappropriate. Contrary to what Mr. Trudeau has been saying that I have nothing to apologize for, yes he does have some to apologize for. The Ethics Commissioner says very clearly he has something to apologize for. He applied inappropriate pressure to benefit a powerful corporation and to help his own re-election. And that is wrong.

DM: Katie Simpson, could we eventually hear the Prime Minister apologize in this?

KATIE SIMPSON: He has dug so far in that if he did it would be such a walk back that it would really, it would make for quite the video segment that we would play saying, 'I have nothing to apologize for.' And from that news conference in Ottawa a few months ago where he said, you know, 'I'm going to go up to the north and apologize for the wrongs of the past but I'm not going to apologize for what went on here.' And remember - what is really important remember is when this story first broke in The Globe and Mail and it broke that the Prime Minister's office had inappropriately pressured Jody Wilson-Raybould over this affair, he came out and stood before reporters and said the allegations in The Globe and Mail are false. So that is really important context remember here that he's dug himself in. First of all he said it's false and that is not accurate. Second, well he's dug himself so far in. I think there is some personal animosity at this point between from the Prime Minister's office and Justin Trudeau toward Jody Wilson-Raybould and for him to apologize at this point, I don't think he can swallow that.

DM: Martin Patriquin, and part of the problem here has been the dual role between the Attorney General and the Justice Minister and whether or not the cabinet influence is influencing the legal decision. Yesterday the Federal Government released a report by former Attorney General Anne McLellan. What did that have to say and what does, how does that fit into this?

MARTIN PATRIQUIN: Well it basically said that the two shouldn't be split... as was suggested before by the Liberals. I mean... and it's not the it's not the only dual issue that they have here. And it's an interesting problem that- the meat and bones of this little bit is that the public prosecution service can't consider economic interests when deciding on whether to allow one of these remediation agreements and it sort of speaks to a politician's role, you know, Justice Minister, Attorney General, that a politician's role, you know, is almost given to only consider economic interests. And that's... Mr. Trudeau actually said it quite well is that you know economic interests and the sort of the Parliament and the institutions sometimes clash. And they and they came together here.

DM: Does it matter the timing of that report's release with regard to the recommendation from Anne McLellan not to split the role?

MARTIN PATRIQUIN: It sort of fell is a bit a bit of a tenure... The release roughly the same time as this sort of came off, to me anyways, as being sort of an ersatz kind of PR attempt and it sort of got buried. I don't see how something like that can stand up in the wake of this 56 page that came out of Mr. Dion's office.

DM: Sachi Kurl, Mr. Shear is calling this this ethics breach quote "unforgivable." It's not surprising, perhaps, for a man that's looking to unseat the Prime Minister. But what do you think voters will have to say about that assessment?

SACHI KURL: I think to some extent it will have to do with how much voters are reminded of this assessment. So again, even with the healing powers of time - and it is, you know, arguably better if there is a better here for the Liberals that this is happening in August and not in October. However, you know the attack ads were written and banks back in February and March. So this is just... this is a little bit more flourish for those ads that we're going to be seeing. This is a little bit more flourish for the attacks. That will come at the debate saying, 'This man can't be trusted, he broke the law, he broke the rules,' et cetera, et cetera. This is why you're seeing the Liberals scrambling, and not just scrambling but deliberately putting a focus on other issues on the agenda: health care, gun control, the economy and jobs, affordability. And they are going to count on or gamble on the idea that voters after, you know, 70 days of hearing about this are going to get very tired about it.

MARTIN PATRIQUIN: And that's the key point right there is - and Katie mentioned before - you know, Trudeau can't necessarily apologize because he's dug himself so far in. I would also add to that is that he's basically telegraphing what his campaign slogan is going to be - "jobs, jobs, jobs." Name me a politician that doesn't talk about jobs going into a campaign.

DM: Well, but we can see what Mr. Scheer's slogan is going to be as well. And it's going to have to be dealing with this report and the suggestion of conflict of interest. So I mean I wonder, though, is that a double edged sword for Andrew Scheer? Because I mean it's worth pointing out that the conflict of interest and Ethics Commissioner only came into effect in 2007. It's been only in effect under two prime ministers, Trudeau and Stephen Harper. Some of Stephen Harper's MP's faced ethical investigation. So is Mr. Shear overplaying his hand if he really goes to town on this during the campaign?

MARTIN PATRIQUIN: I don't think the mechanics of the conflict of interest minister really matter to add to Canadians. The ideas that- I mean Scheer has a ready-made headline and he said it in that clip that you played earlier, you know, 'This is the only Prime Minister that's been found... to have breached these laws.' And I mean that's just the sound and you can play it and play it. You know, whether or not how long the Ethics Commissioner and how long the conflict of interest commissioner has existed doesn't really matter to Canadians.

DM: Katie Simpson, what about Jody Wilson-Reybould? I mean what does this mean for her bid to win as an independent in her writing of a Vancouver Granville?

KATIE SIMPSON: Well she's going to point to what happened in this report as evidence that she wants to do politics differently. But the big question is Jody Wilson-Reybould as well as Jane Philpott have been very strategic in how they've responded to different developments and they've actually helped prolong the scandal when it first started. It was a slow drip of information. We did stories on this on The National nearly every day for two and a half months. For something like that to happen to capture the nation's attention like that, that is unusual. So my big question is do Jody Wilson-Raybould and Jane Philpott try to drag this out - and maybe in two days they hold a news conference publicly and bring it up again - how is this slow drip going to filter into the campaign? And is this another Mike Duffy trial. Is this going to have an impact on this election campaign the same way those stories had an impact on Stephen Harper during the last campaign?

DM: Sachi Kurl, what does it mean for the NDP and the Green Party in terms of competing for progressive votes?

SACHI KURL: You know, there's a lot of conversation right now about where the parties are in the polls, and what does that mean, and how is it going to shift and the big, big picture. But you know for the parties, they're so focussed on the ground game and efficiency of vote - where can we win, where can we make this an issue - that it matters. And so just going back to that to the Scheer factor and to Jagmeet Singh saying talking about the credibility of Justin Trudeau right now, the trustworthiness, this is also about motivating your own base. Andrew Scheer isn't necessarily going to pick up more conservative voters as a result of this, although he may. But this is also signalling to his base, which is so annoyed with Justin Trudeau at the moment, they would line up and vote Conservative three times if they could if that was a possibility for them. So it's also about galvanizing your base which is what he's focussed on doing. And for Jagmeet Singh, for Elizabeth May, this is about playing to disaffected Liberal voters and saying, 'You know what? That gentleman there, Justin Trudeau, promised to be better than all of us and has turned out not to be what he promised to be. If you are feeling unhappy about that come on over to us.' And for Justin Trudeau it's about keeping jobs and affordability on the front burner, and this, to the extent possible, on the back burner.

DM: Martin, to try to staunch the bleeding Gerald Butts, Justin Trudeau's right hand man, resigned but he is now back leading the campaign strategy for the Liberals during the election. I also wonder about the Ethics Commissioner's finding that the current clerk of the Privy Council Office didn't make all of the evidence that he wanted for this investigation available. How much of that is going to be a problem for Justin Trudeau when he's saying it's time to move on?

That was the most, and it sort of came out before this report, that one of the more disturbing aspects of this the clerk of the Privy Council is as people might not know is the most important bureaucrat or the most powerful bureaucrat in the country - is, you know, arguably apolitical. Having the clerk of the Privy Council not give information, not hand over documents to an independent commissioner... reeks of partisanship. And it sort of plays exactly into the way that Mr. Wernick, the former clerk of the Privy Council, came off during those hearings. That he wasn't necessarily as independent as he should have been and that he was actually doing a fair bit of Justin Trudeau's bidding.

DM: Katie Simpson, how is this going to play out in the days and weeks ahead?

KATIE SIMPSON: It totally depends on how it is dragged out. If this becomes one of those things where every day on the campaign trail there's a new development and reporters continue to ask, ask, ask about it and there's no way for Justin Trudeau to change the channel and change the conversation, it could be ugly. However, if Canadians accept what the Prime Minister has to say about this - he didn't apologize but he says he takes full responsibility - what exactly that means is unclear at this point. But if Canadians are comfortable with that and this slow drip of information is able to be stopped then perhaps, this again, this is that summer blip that the Liberals have to try to overcome. But ten weeks out it's unclear. It certainly is going to make this contest a lot closer than people would have thought one year ago today.

DM: Sachi Kurl, predictions on how Justin Trudeau will come back from the "five minute major" as you describe it.

SACHI KURL: Well let me pull out the crystal ball that's in my handbag and prognosticate into the future. No look- in February I asked two questions: does this stink and will it stick? The answers at the time were yes and yes. The general mail order has come back. People are sniffing it. To what extent will it permeate the room, or will they just move on? Stay tuned. Watch this space.

DM: Okay. Well thank you all for weighing in today. Appreciate it.

MARTIN PATRIQUIN: Thanks a lot.

KATIE SIMPSON: Thanks!

DM: Katie Simpson is Senior Reporter with CBC News, covering mostly federal politics. Martin Patriquin is columnist for the Montreal Gazette. And Sachi Kurl is Executive Director of the Angus Reid Institute.

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DM: CBC News is next. Then there's a new Google Earth project that's pretty fun to explore. It features dozens of people sharing their Indigenous languages, like this greeting from Bangladesh.

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VOICE: [Chakma phrase]

English Translation: Hi there, I am Bivuti Chakma from Banduk Bhangha, Rangamati of Bangladesh.

DM: The point is to help preserve languages, but does a site like this actually achieve that goal? We'll talk about that and continue CBC investigative podcast Finding Cleo. I'm Duncan McCue. You're listening to the Summer Edition of The Current.

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Google Earth project about Indigenous languages feels like 'tourism,' scholar says

Guests: Jennifer Wemigwans

DM: Hi I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to the Summer Edition of The Current.

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[Music: Theme]

DM: Still to come, we continue the award-winning podcast Finding Cleo. The search for any trace of the missing girl takes reporter Connie Walker to a cemetery in hopes of finding Cleo's adopted name. But first, giving endangered languages new life.

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[Music: Theme]

DM: The United Nations has declared 2019 the International Year of Indigenous Languages. And to mark the occasion the folks at Google have put together what they call a "Google Earth Tour" of some of the world's Indigenous languages. From Inuktitut in Canada's north...

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VOICE 1: [Inuktitut phrase]

English Translation: Here you are.

DM: ...to Mapuche...

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VOICE 2: [Mapuche phrase]

English Translation: A greeting from the heart for everyone.

DM: ...a threatened language spoken in Chile and Argentina. Released last week, the project allows users to click around the world and hear snippets of greetings and songs from over 50 languages. Raleigh Seamster is Senior Program Manager with Google Earth Outreach.

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RALEIGH SEAMSTER: I think we're really hoping that people around the world can really begin to appreciate the contribution these languages make to global diversity and think about the languages in their own area, maybe explore within the collection we have. We mentioned all the partner organizations that work on the ground to preserve these languages and to learn more about those organizations and how they could support them locally.

DM: The chance to explore the world and learn about local groups preserving languages is one thing, but my next guest says big tech companies like Google could be doing much more to help revitalize indigenous languages. Jennifer Wemigwans is Anishinaabekwe from Wikwemikong First Nation in Ontario. She's an Assistant Professor at the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education at the University of Toronto where she specializes in the convergence of Indigenous knowledge and new media technologies. And she's in our Toronto studio. Bonjour, hello!

JENNIFER WEMIGWANS: Bonjour, ami.

DM: What were your first impressions of the Google Earth Project?

JENNIFER WEMIGWANS: Well to be honest, when I looked at it I just felt it was kind of like cultural tourism. You know, it was very short. It was, you know, kind of like 'Who are you and can you tell us what this language is and a song.' And that was it. I mean yes, you could scroll down and see who was involved maybe in that community, but if you go through the majority of the pieces you don't really see a lot of organizations that are involved in communities. I was also really surprised that, you know, having just come back from Central America where I'm doing research on Indigenous timekeepers that I looked at the whole region of Guatemala and Mexico and there was no representation. And yet, you know, all of the Indigenous timekeepers that I've met who are knowledge keepers were asking me oh you know about technology can you help us get a language app? And I was just thinking like, what kind of synchronicity to come back to Canada and be contacted and asked about Google Earth's language and the declaration! And I thought yes, something could be done.

DM: Well there are in the Canadian section of the Google Earth project that there are only seven languages that are represented from Canada. Let me play a portion of one.

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VOICE 3: [Plains Cree phrase]

English Translation: Hello, how are you? My name is Dolores Greyeyes Sand. I was raised at Muskeg Lake Cree Nation.

DM: That's a Plains Cree reading from Delores Greyeyes Sand from the Muskeg Lake Cree Nation in Saskatchewan. Here's what she told CBC News about how she feels about being part of the project.

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DOLORES GREYEYES SAND: I feel good about it because they will be there always. It'll be there for, you know, my grandchildren, and their grandchildren, and their grandchildren. It gives credence I guess, you know, to our existence, to our languages, and to who we are as a people. It lets the world know that yes they're here and they have their own ways, and language, and culture, and traditions and worldview which are as valid as any other language group in the world.

DM: What do you think of what Delores has to say?

JENNIFER WEMIGWANS: Oh I agree with her 100 percent. What governments and the history of colonisation, the kind of violence that it has caused across Indigenous communities throughout this continent - from the north to the south - is tremendous. And that impact has led many non-Indigenous people to believe that we don't exist. So in that way, yes. This is a project that, you know, kind of...

DM: Raises awareness.

JENNIFER WEMIGWANS: Yeah raises awareness. But what I'm curious about too is that in raising awareness does it just become, then, a memorial? Or can we go beyond, you know... When I look at somebody like - well not somebody but - Google is a huge technology company and what they could do beyond turning on a camera at the Indigenous Permanent Forum in New York, well what about creating a mobile language temp- like a template. A language template.

DM: You mentioned you were in Central America doing field research and that they were saying we need technical help to preserve our languages. What kind of hands-on tech were they asking for?

JENNIFER WEMIGWANS: So I think they're kind of asking for, you know, the kind of work that I developed a language app with Alan Corbiere - Nannabush and Nenbosh - and they're looking at introductory ways to start getting their community to start knowing how to sound out syllables, how to pronounce the words correctly, how to have a library or vocabulary of certain key words and phrases. And you know, the projects that we have developed thus far here in Canada, we did that for iPad. And one of the things the elders said to me in Guatemala is he said, 'You know we're so far behind. We don't have access, even, to iPhones. So we need technology that is suitable for mobile phones that are the very cheapest phones.' And I thought about that and I think that, yeah... what would be really useful to actually celebrate and revitalize indigenous languages would be creating a mobile language template. And if we could have that then we could offer it to communities for free.

DM: You were showing me your language app. Very cute. I mean... a rabbit is involved, it's a game for kids. How does that help learning and language preservation?

JENNIFER WEMIGWANS: It helps because teachers can use it in the classroom, and students and young people and older people alike can start connecting the eye to the syllables and their ear and they start to make the connections. So when I first tried to read to my son a book in Anishinaabemowin I killed the language because I was using English pronunciations to make out the sounds of the word. So I couldn't, you know, even read the language correctly. But using these apps will allow me to then pronunciate and enunciate those words correctly.

DM: I am learning Anishinaabemowin [Indigenous phrase]. I only speak a little bit, but I find that there's a lot of focus on the apps which are very beginner and introductory, often. It's more difficult to find online resources that help intermediate and advanced speakers and actually try to preserve the language. What can be done to try to correct that?

JENNIFER WEMIGWANS: You know, I'm not a language expert but I think like people like Alan Corbiere who are, you know, doing work in that area, they could speak better to that. I think that, you know, from my understanding of the Environmental Audit he's done on Indigenous languages on the Internet he says that there are a lot of like YouTube and Facebook sites, etcetera, that have language speakers and that kind of you know offer teachings in terms of like trying to provide a context and, you know, explain different parts of the language. But what he found was that you almost had to be at that intermediate-advanced stage. So you had to understand enough to work with those pieces. So that's why he wanted to develop the very basic introductory- like how do you just understand the syllables, and you know, the contraction and conjoining of syllables to make words, etcetera.

DM: And so the point of this project is to point out that so many Indigenous languages around the world are threatened, endangered. How would you encourage big tech companies to get more involved and help with that with indigenous language preservation?

JENNIFER WEMIGWANS: I would say to look at the bare bones of what is needed to create a useful mobile language app and then create a template that then everyone from different communities could upload their own words and start figuring out their own syllables and start putting together their own, you know, kind of vocabulary and working with that app. So it would mean doing some consultation with community and doing some consultation with people like myself who have developed projects in the past and then trying to work a way to create a template that's open and free.

DM: Miigwech, Jennifer. [English Translation: Thank you, Jennifer]

JENNIFER WEMIGWANS: Miigwech.

DM: Jennifer Wemigwans is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Leadership, higher and adult education at the Ontario Institute for Studies and Education at the University of Toronto. She's also the author of A Digital Bundle: Protecting and Promoting Indigenous Knowledge Online. She joined us in our Toronto studio. I'm Duncan McCue you're listening to the Summer Edition of The Current and this summer we're playing some of the best of CBC original podcasts. This week the award winning Finding Cleo. Host Connie Walker investigates the case of a Cree girl from Saskatchewan who went missing in the 1970s. In this episode the search for Cleo leads Connie to investigate a headstone belonging to a 13-year-old girl who died in 1978. The cemetery is more than 20 hours away from Arkansas where Cleo's family has long believed she was killed. Here's episode four of finding Cleo, "The Funeral Home."

Missing and Murdered: Finding Cleo – Episode 4

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[Sound: car driving]

GPS: In about a quarter of a mile, left turn onto Church Road.

CONNIE WALKER: So Church Road? No, you said Coates, right?

MARNIE LUKE: Because there's two cemeteries with this exact same name. One's old, one's new.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): My producer Marnie and I are in a rental car. We've just turned off the New Jersey Turnpike and are trying to find a small township called Medford in Burlington County. Specifically, we're looking for the old Park View Cemetery.

CONNIE WALKER: Oh wait, there's Coates.

MARNIE LUKE: Oh good, good, good.

CONNIE WALKER: Found it.

GPS: Left turn ahead onto Coates Street. Then you are two tenths of a mile from your destination.

MARNIE LUKE: There it is. There it is.

CONNIE WALKER: Oh I think we could find it. I don't think- it doesn't look that big.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): It's been a few weeks since Marnie's late night Internet search. We're at this old cemetery because we think that somewhere here is the grave of a young girl named Cleo who died in 1978.

CONNIE WALKER: How are you feeling?

MARNIE LUKE: I feel nervous.

CONNIE WALKER: Me too! Me too.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): I'm nervous because on one hand this kind of feels like a long shot. But on the other it feels like it might actually be the clue we've been searching for. Someone somewhere just randomly uploaded a picture of a headstone for a girl named Cleo onto a website called findagrave.com.

[Sound: car door shuts, crow calls]

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): The website says this photo was taken from this cemetery, but we need to confirm that it actually was. And we're not sure if that Cleo is the same girl that we've been searching for months. The girl who was born in Saskatchewan and adopted into this state more than 40 years ago. Cleo Semaganis.

MARNIE LUKE: I almost don't want to find it. I don't know, I just feel like... I'm not sure. I just...

CONNIE WALKER: Hmm.

MARNIE LUKE: Not that I don't want to find it, but... it just feels weird to be here at this point all this time.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): It's a sunny morning in late May. Memorial Day is coming up so there are dozens and dozens of little American flags next to the headstones of veterans throughout the cemetery. We start at the East End and walk through row by row looking at every headstone for the name Cleo. The cemetery is bigger than it seemed from the car. I realize it could take a while to check every one.

CONNIE WALKER: But it looks like it would be one of those smaller ones. Those grey ones? Look, like that one says "Roberta Adams."

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): We brought a copy of the photo that Marnie found online. We're looking for a small, grey headstone. It's rectangular shaped but with a little curve on top.

[Sound: footsteps through crunchy leaves]

MARNIE LUKE: But doesn't have a cross.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): The woman who posted it told us in an email that finding and posting pictures of gravesites is a hobby of her's. She's uploaded thousands of photos on findagrave.com and didn't remember finding this particular one.

CONNIE WALKER: We're looking for "Beloved daughter.".

MARNIE LUKE: "Beloved daughter, Cleo L. Madonia."

CONNIE WALKER: So it says "Beloved daughter, Cleo L. Madonia. May 7th, 1965 to December 22nd, 1978.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): The headstone has the full name of the girl who died in 1978. Cleo L. Madonia. If this is the Cleo we've been searching for we now know her adopted name and are closer than ever to solving the mystery surrounding her death.

[Sound: footsteps through gravel, crow calls]

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): It's quiet here which is good because I imagine where a strange sight with our microphone and camera walking through scanning each and every headstone.

CONNIE WALKER: Because there's that one in the middle that looks like... See what this snow- see there's a little snowmen next to it? And it looks kind of old.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): We haven't told Cleo's siblings about our trip here yet. We don't want to get their hopes up for something that could turn out to be a wild goose chase. Before we tell them anything we need to find this Cleo's grave site and try to find out who she is and how she died. We need to be 100 percent certain whether or not this is actually their sister, the Cleo they've been searching for for decades.

CONNIE WALKER: Just wait. I think I can- do you think that's it?

MARNIE LUKE: Let's go check.

CONNIE WALKER: I don't think it says "Beloved daughter." Let me just... no it doesn't. It says, no no... Roger Button.

MARNIE LUKE: But that's very similar though, the shape.

CONNIE WALKER: Madonia. M-A-D-O-N-I-A?

MARNIE LUKE: Mmhm.

CONNIE WALKER: Crosses... doesn't look like it.

[Sound: footsteps on pavement]

CONNIE WALKER: [gasp] There it is!

[Sound: birds chirping]

CONNIE WALKER: So small. Wow.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): We found it. Cleo L. Madonia's grave. Is this Cleo?

CONNIE WALKER: It looks smaller than the others but it- is it?

MARNIE LUKE: It's almost like it sunk down a little more?

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah. Maybe it's sunken in.

MARNIE LUKE: Just all by itself.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): It feels surreal to be standing here. Right in front of a grave of a girl who, no matter who she is, died a tragic, young death.

MARNIE LUKE: That doesn't look like anyone's been here to see it in a while.

CONNIE WALKER: "Beloved daughter Cleo L. Madonia. May 7th, 1965 to December 22nd, 1978." That's right before Christmas. She would have been 13. Whoever Cleo is, if it's Cleo from Saskatchewan or if... Cleo Madonia someone else.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Before we got here researched online for any information about Cleo L. Madonia, but all that came up was the photo of this headstone from findagrave.com. We're only in town for a few days. If we're going to find out if this is Cleo Semaganis, we need to do it here, now, while we're on the ground.

[Sound: dog barking]

CONNIE WALKER: Oh she's looking at you!

MARNIE LUKE: She's like, she's wondering what we're doing.

CONNIE WALKER: Hi- Hi there!

WOMAN: Hi.

CONNIE WALKER: How are you?

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Across the street, a woman comes out of her house with her two dogs.

CONNIE WALKER: We were looking for a particular gravesite there. Yeah. So we're from Canada and we're looking for a girl who died, we think, around 1978 and her name was Cleo and she was adopted into New Jersey.

WOMAN: Ohh. And you're looking for somebody.

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah we're looking for somebody.

WOMAN: Say the last name again?

CONNIE WALKER: Madonia. Ma-don-ee-ah or Ma-doh-nee-ah?

WOMAN: OK. It's right over here on the far side of the- yes. OK.

MARNIE LUKE: You knew where it was?

WOMAN: Yeah. Yeah. It's like the second or third in.

[Sound: dog barking]

WOMAN: [Turns to the dog] Stop it!

CONNIE WALKER: You don't know any Madonias?

WOMAN: No.

CONNIE WALKER: No?

WOMAN: No. No, and I've been round here a long time. I don't recognize that at all.

MARNIE LUKE: Any recollection from around that time? Like in the 70s, did you ever hear anything about a young girl dying or...?

WOMAN: What? Oh, oh you mean strangely?

CONNIE WALKER: Well we don't know actually but we heard that she might have been killed.

WOMAN: Whoa. No. '78. OK. Have you- have you got in touch with the man that runs the cemetery?

CONNIE WALKER: No. What's his name?

WOMAN: Yeah it's Earl or something. Yeah yeah yeah.

CONNIE WALKER: And what's your name?

WOMAN: Nancy.

CONNIE WALKER: Thanks Nancy!

NANCY: You're welcome, hon. I hope you find it. But Earl would help you if he can. 'Cause he keeps close record. [Turns to dog] C'mon now!

[Sound: dog barking]

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): There are two Park View cemeteries in Medford, New Jersey. The old one where we are, and a brand new one just a few minutes away.

GPS: In a quarter mile, your destination will be on the left.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): A visit to Earl at the new mausoleum and crematorium seems like a logical next step.

CONNIE WALKER: Park View Cemetery...

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): We don't know what records, if any, they'll have about Cleo Madonia. Or even if they have them, what we'll be able to access. But it's not unheard of for cemetery records to include a death certificate which may also list a cause of death.

CONNIE WALKER: Hello.

CEMETAERY EMPLOYEE 1: Hi.

CONNIE WALKER: How are you?

CEMETAERY EMPLOYEE 1: I'm doing great. How are you all doing?

CONNIE WALKER: I'm good. It's Earl in today?

CEMETAERY EMPLOYEE 1: He's somewhere on site.

CONNIE WALKER: OK.

CEMETAERY EMPLOYEE 2: Let me go let her know that you're here.

CONNIE WALKER: Oh are you Earl?

EARL: Yes.

CONNIE WALKER: Hi I'm Connie. Connie Walker. I'm a reporter from CBC, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. This is Marnie.

MARNIE LUKE: I'm Marnie, nice to meet you.

EARL: Nice to meet you.

CONNIE WALKER: I was explaining that we're working on a story about a Canadian girl who was adopted from Canada into New Jersey in the 70s and her siblings are looking for her but they don't know any information about where she died or what happened to her.

EARL: What's the name?

CONNIE WALKER: Her name is Cleo.

EARL: That's the first name?

CONNIE WALKER: The first name. But we think we-

EARL: Do you know the last name?

CONNIE WALKER: There's a there's a Cleo Madonia in the old grave site from who died in 1978 on December 22nd and she has the same birth year as the Cleo we're looking for. So we're wondering if that's the Cleo that we're actually looking for.

EARL: Uh... let's go... let's walk through here.

CONNIE WALKER: Sure.

EARL: Watch your step please.

CONNIE WALKER: Sure.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Earl takes us away from the reception, punches in a code for a locked door and leads us through a few dark rooms to his office. As we pass through the rooms I notice a strange smell that reminds me where we are. It's unnerving. Earl's office looks like it's actually a garage that he's converted. He sits behind a small cluttered desk and has a laptop open in front of him.

CONNIE WALKER: Thanks. Yeah this is... We took a picture.

EARL: Let me see... This is at our cemetery?

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah at the old one.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Along with a big fan near the ceiling when you walk in, there's also a little fan on his desk pointed directly at him.

[Sound: desk fan]

EARL: I mean this is all the information I would have on it. I don't know if I'd be able to tell who... The only thing is I have a book that says who's the owner. I would look up the obituary somehow and find out who the funeral director was. Funeral director may have the actual death certificate. Let's see... M-A-D-O-N-I-A. '78's right year. And it's the right name. So I'm going to go into our grave book. It says page reference number 108... number 108.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Earl's grave book is actually an old brown spiral notebook. It's a small ledger. Every entry is handwritten. It says where each grave site is in the old cemetery and the name of the people who paid for the plots.

EARL: So if we go into 108 and it should be grave I.D. R64.4 so...

CONNIE WALKER: Oh there it is! There it is. It says "name: Louis...

EARL: ...J. and Lee Madonia. They just says 1978 they paid 250 dollars for the grave. So Louis and Lee is probably the parents of that child.

CONNIE WALKER: So they just purchased the one, the one grave?

EARL: Yes. I mean obviously she- this is, the baby is 13-years-old here. So it is a child.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): If this is Cleo, Earl's little notebook contains the names of the people who likely adopted her. And the full name of the daughter they buried.

EARL: Here we go. Cleopatra, C-L-E-O-P-A-T-R-A Madonia, M-A-D-O-N-I-A. That was done by Bradley Funeral Home.It says age 13.

CONNIE WALKER: That was her full name, Cleopatra.

EARL: Yeah.

CONNIE WALKER: That was, that's the full name of the girl that we're looking for.

EARL: Yeah. That's... she's right here.

DM: We've been listening to finding Cleo, the award-winning CBC original podcast by Connie Walker. Stay with us to hear the rest of episode 4 coming up in about two minutes. I'm Duncan McCue. You're listening to the Summer Edition of The Current.

[BREAK]

DM: I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to the Summer Edition of The Current. For the past few weeks we've been bringing you some of these best original podcasts. This week we're hearing CBC reporter Connie Walker's investigation Finding Cleo. We continue now with the conclusion of Episode 4, "The Funeral Home."

SOUNDCLIP

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Cleopatra. Cleo Semaganis' full name was also Cleopatra. This is not 100 percent confirmation that we found her. But if this isn't Cleo Semaganis, these are some pretty remarkable coincidences.

EARL: Well that's one of the best funeral homes in New Jersey. Bradley Funeral Home. You can go talk to Jill, Jill Bradley Ingram. She's the owner. Actually, her father was here just a few minutes ago. They would have records back then.

CONNIE WALKER: The funeral home would have maybe a death certificate or something like that?

EARL: Yeah that's where I would start if it was me.

CONNIE WALKER: Is there an obituary?

EARL: Not find anyone that far back. But you can go to Bradley Funeral Home and ask them.

CONNIE WALKER: OK. All right, we'll head over there. Thank you very much.

EARL: It was a pleasure.

CONNIE WALKER: That was really helpful.

EARL: Watch your step please.

[Sound: footsteps]

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): We leave the cemetery office and arrive at Bradley Funeral Home one town over in Marlton, New Jersey.

CONNIE WALKER: Jill, what was her last name?

MARNIE LUKE: Bradley.

CONNIE WALKER: Jill Bradley. Oh - Jill Bradley, manager.

[Sound: attempting to open the door].

CONNIE WALKER: It's closed. Okay we'll have to come back tomorrow. Should we go to the library?

MARNIE LUKE: The library is up... it's up in Burlington.

CONNIE WALKER: OK is that... is that far?

MARNIE LUKE: We could... it's about half an hour away.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): We contacted the local library and they sent us an obituary for Cleo Madonia. It appeared in the local paper in 1978. It said Private funeral services were held for Cleo L. Madonia, 13, of Marlton. She is survived by her parents Louis J. and Leonora Madonia, and a brother Louis A. We searched online for information about the Madonias. It looks like her father died a few years ago. We find an address for her mother in Marlton, New Jersey. But because we're not sure how Cleo died or what the circumstances were, we're not ready to reach out to her yet.

CONNIE WALKER: Hi there. We're wondering where we could access old newspapers and microfilm?

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): We go to the library in person because if we have the right Cleo and she was murdered there could be something in the local paper about the crime.

CONNIE WALKER: In Burlington County Times...

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): We start scrolling through reels of microfilm.

CONNIE WALKER: Just going to go all the way to the end, and then come back. Just going to see what's there on the 22nd to the 26th. So this is the first- if she died on the 22nd this is the first time anything potentially would even be in the paper. This is the 24th. "Decomposed skeletal remains of a human body were found. New trial ordered on injured girls... Hunters discover decomposed body.".

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): There seemed to be a lot of crime in the news in 1978.

MARNIE LUKE: John Wayne Gacy Jr...

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): John Wayne Gacy had just confessed to killing over two dozen boys in Illinois. Here in Burlington County they were reporting on homicides, assaults and suicides.

CONNIE WALKER: And the state police in Burlington County major crimes unit are investigating to determine if it is a possible homicide... Remains found.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): And then a story about an attack on a teenager jumps out at us.

CONNIE WALKER: Attempted rape- did you just happen on this?

MARNIE LUKE: Yeah.

CONNIE WALKER: "Attempted rape of hitchhiker in Medford" - which is really close to Marlton right? September 7th, 1978, Medford police here are investigating attempted rape of a Cherry Hill teenager last Wednesday. Investigators said the girl was hitchhiking and she was picked up by a man described in his late 20s operating a medium to full size car with red body in white final top. She was taken to oral field in Medford where the alleged attack. Occurred shortly after 7:00 p.m.. The victim said the driver gave his name as either Mike or John and said he was from Pennsauken.

MARNIE LUKE: Oh my God.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): We have no idea who this girl is but the horrifying details in this story sound kind of familiar. The girl in the paper survived the attack. It happened in early December, three weeks before Cleo Madonia's death. It might not be related at all but I can't help but think about Cleo Semaganis and the story that her family heard about her death - that she tried to hitchhike back home to Saskatchewan and was picked up and assaulted before she was killed. I wonder again what truth there is to that story that Christine wrote. The story that started us on this journey. I hope that while we're here we get some concrete answers.

CONNIE WALKER: The 26th was the day that she was buried, it said, right? Ok these are the death notices for Tuesday, December 26. William Andrews, William Finnegan, Maryann Lee...

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): We search through the rest of the archives for that month but we don't find any mention of Cleo Madonia or anything about the murder of a young girl in Marlton.

[Sound: beep]

LIBRARIAN: May I have your attention please. The library will be closing in 45 minutes. If you have any monetary transactions to complete or need a library card...

[Sound: car driving]

CONNIE WALKER: It's going to be a short drive. Six minutes away.

MARNIE LUKE: Where are we off to?

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): The next morning we head back to Bradley Funeral Home where we know that Cleo Madonia's service took place.

MARNIE LUKE: All right.

CONNIE WALKER: Good morning.

FUNERAL HOME EMPLOYEE: Morning.

CONNIE WALKER: How are you doing?

FUNERAL HOME EMPLOYEE: Good.

CONNIE WALKER: It's Jill Bradley here?

FUNERAL HOME EMPLOYEE: No she's not.

CONNIE WALKER: Do you know when she'll be in?

FUNERAL HOME EMPLOYEE: She's out running errands and then she won't be in at all this afternoon.

CONNIE WALKER: OK. OK. I wonder if there's anyone else we could talk to. We're actually... We were over at the Medford cemetery talking to Earl.

FUNERAL HOME EMPLOYEE: Oh that's where she is actually right now.

CONNIE WALKER: Oh really?

FUNERAL HOME EMPLOYEE: She just headed over there. She's going to take someone to the crematory.

CONNIE WALKER: Ohh.

FUNERAL HOME EMPLOYEE: And then she's not gonna be here this afternoon. What do- any one of the directors can help you. Do you have a question, or?

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah we do have a question. So we're actually, we were over at the Medford cemetery looking for this gravestone. It was a girl who died in 1978.

FUNERAL HOME EMPLOYEE: OK.

CONNIE WALKER: And she was 13 years old and her name was Cleo Madonia. And...

FUNERAL HOME EMPLOYEE: Do we do this... did we do this funeral?

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah. Yeah he said he said that you guys did back in 1978 so it was a long time ago.

FUNERAL HOME EMPLOYEE: Yeah it was a long time ago. So you couldn't find the headstone. Is that what you're telling me?

CONNIE WALKER: No we found the headstone. But the reason- we're journalists from Canada and the reason we're looking for her is that she... there was a girl who was adopted from Canada in the 1970s whose family was told she died in 19... around 1978. So we want to try and find out if this is the right girl.

FUNERAL HOME EMPLOYEE: If this is her.

CONNIE WALKER: So I don't know... were you here in the 70s?

FUNERAL HOME EMPLOYEE: No. [laughs] I was 13. So OK let me- all right. Have a seat. I'm gonna see if I can find the book that the record is in. So December 22nd, '78.

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah.

FUNERAL HOME EMPLOYEE: I have to go down the basement. So have a seat there.

CONNIE WALKER: Sure.

FUNERAL HOME EMPLOYEE: December 17th...

CONNIE WALKER: 22nd. December 22nd, 1978.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): The receptionist leaves us in the foyer and goes down a staircase in search of the records from 1978.

CONNIE WALKER: I think everything we want to know is going to be in that book.

MARNIE LUKE: The death certificate though?

CONNIE WALKER: I don't know.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): I don't know if she's going to share any information with us. I think it's kind of unlikely. But I was surprised that we were able to see the records at the cemetery office. Things seem different in the States. Saying you're a journalist seems to open doors that they might not in Canada.

CONNIE WALKER: I know she wants us to sit. I can't sit.

MARNIE LUKE: I know. I feel so nervous.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): But she's back within a few minutes and has a file of papers in her hand.

MARNIE LUKE: Wow. What's that?

CONNIE WALKER: That's her file! Amazing.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): But she doesn't hand them over. She keeps them close to her behind her desk.

FUNERAL HOME EMPLOYEE: Hold on. Let me come around.

CONNIE WALKER: OK.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Jill said she was 13 years old in 1978, the same age as Cleo Madonia. It's a long shot but I show her the picture we have of Cleo, the one we've been carrying around with us for months.

CONNIE WALKER: So are you from here as well? I was just wondering if you would recognize your photo.

FUNERAL HOME EMPLOYEE: No. I don't think so. I am from here but no I don't recognize her picture.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): But then she looks at the photo again.

FUNERAL HOME EMPLOYEE: Oh wait a minute. This is Cleo.

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah.

FUNERAL HOME EMPLOYEE: Oh my gosh. Yes. Wow. Yes she and I were friends!

CONNIE WALKER: What?

FUNERAL HOME EMPLOYEE: Yes. Yes she... Let me- let me- let me think for a second. We were in fifth grade, sixth grade, no. Middle school? Are you recording this?

CONNIE WALKER: Yes is that OK?

FUNERAL HOME EMPLOYEE: No it's not.

CONNIE WALKER: We're doing a documentary for her family. Her siblings are looking for her. And this is...

FUNERAL HOME EMPLOYEE: I would just rather you didn't record me if that's OK. Yeah. So you turned it off?

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah. OK.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): I stopped recording. I can't believe it. We found Cleo, the girl we'd been searching for for months. We found her. And not only that, we're talking to someone who knew her! Someone who was her friend. Someone who doesn't want to be recorded. I'm crushed. The woman doesn't ask us to leave though. She keeps talking. Her name is Jill Slim. She's not the Jill we came to see but I'm so glad that she is the one that we found. What are the odds? Jill can't believe it either. She keeps saying "Oh my gosh, oh my gosh." It starts to sink in that we're talking about her friend Cleo and she gets emotional. Even though I'm disappointed, I can understand her hesitation about being recorded. Jill starts telling us about the day that Cleo died. She remembers it vividly. It was a few days before Christmas in 1978 and Jill was hosting a party. She invited all of her girlfriends to come over to her house, including Cleo. Everyone brought an ornament to help trim the tree. The party had started but Cleo didn't show up. As Jill is telling this story I feel panicked. This is the moment we found Cleo and are hearing details about her life and her death. Details that her siblings have been searching and longing for. I'm not taking notes. Neither is Marnie. Everything is happening so quickly and I'm worried we're missing something important. Something crucial. So I make a split second decision. And hit the record button again.

JILL SLIM: Didn't show up to the party, didn't show up to the party, didn't show up to the party. So my mom called. My mom called her house and they told me what had happened. So.

CONNIE WALKER: In my mind I think Jill is shocked right now.

CONNIE WALKER: Well first of all, I can tell you what we're doing here so you can have a better sense but...

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): But maybe once she has time to process and hear more about what we're doing and why...

CONNIE WALKER: Cleo had five siblings from Saskatchewan and they've been searching for her their entire lives...

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): ...she might change her mind. And maybe she'll be okay with it and let us use what I'm recording for the podcast. And even if she doesn't, even if she still says no, it's important to record what she says for our notes for accuracy. So I keep recording.

JILL SLIM: Oh my gosh I don't know if I can do this. I'm just not ready to do this right now.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Luckily Jill would change her mind.

JILL SLIM: OK. So what do you want to know?

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Months later. After we'd met again she agrees to let us use what I recorded that day in the funeral home. Her reaction after we realized that the girl that we've been searching for is her friend Cleo.

CONNIE WALKER: I can't believe that we found you.

JILL SLIM: Oh my gosh like this is just crazy.

MARNIE LUKE: But that's her?

JILL SLIM: That's definitely her. She's really, really tall. She was taller than all of us. But that's her. She was really small here. I was in... I was in 1978 so I was 13, so I was in middle school.

CONNIE WALKER: What school?

JILL SLIM: Marlton Middle.

CONNIE WALKER: Marlton Middle School...

JILL SLIM: Yeah Marlton Middle.

CONNIE WALKER: Would there be a photo of her, like a yearbook or anything like that?

JILL SLIM: Yeah. I think... Yeah I probably have a yearbook picture of her at home.

CONNIE WALKER: Oh my God.

JILL SLIM: Oh no. Middle school? Do I have a middle school year book?

CONNIE WALKER: I can't believe that you know her. It's funny, we've been looking for her!

JILL SLIM: Oh my God I cannot believe! Gina and I were just talking about her.

CONNIE WALKER: Who is Gina?

JILL SLIM: Gina is just my... we were just best friends at school and we were friends with Cleo.

CONNIE WALKER: How long was she in New Jersey, do you know?

JILL SLIM: Very... honestly I don't have much recall of her. Only... she was just in my class. That's all I know. It was just tragic. I think I know how she died. I'm not positive.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Even though Jill says she's not sure, I think she actually knows how Cleo died. But she is adamant she can't be the one to tell us what happened to Cleo.

JILL SLIM: I'm sorry. I'm sorry! I was really, really sorry.

CONNIE WALKER: You think it's likely she could have died in an accident?

JILL SLIM: [sniffles] You can try the police department. They might have a record.

MARNIE LUKE: Can you even tell us just what the story was going around? This isn't official cause of death. Just even what the...

JILL SLIM: I can't. I really... I just am not interested. You know, it was tragic. It's just, it's a tragedy.

CONNIE WALKER: Is it something you think police may have info on?

JILL SLIM: I'm sure... I'm sure the police were called. Yeah.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): The whole time we're here, Jill is texting with her friend Gina who was also Cleo's friend.

JILL SLIM: I know I have a yearbook with her picture in it. I know I do.

MARNIE LUKE: Is there any pos-

JILL SLIM: She looks just like that. She was just really, really tall.

CONNIE WALKER: Did her hair change?

JILL SLIM: No. It was... it was really straight. Bangs. Yeah.

MARNIE LUKE: Did she talk about being adopted?

JILL SLIM: No. See I have such a vivid... it was eighth grade. Do you remember much from eighth grade?

CONNIE WALKER: No.

JILL SLIM: I mean it was horrible, right?

CONNIE WALKER: OK great.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): This has obviously thrown Jill for a loop. She's reeling and she's still at work.

[Sound: phone ring]

JILL SLIM: Bradley Funeral Home.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): We ask if we can meet up with her later but she has an appointment right after work and is heading out of town first thing tomorrow.

JILL SLIM: What are the odds?

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah I know.

JILL SLIM: What are the odds right? And I'm looking at this paper and I'm looking at this picture and I, hmm. I get upstairs and I'm looking for '78, and oh no no '78 is upstairs. And Cleo. Cleo Madonia.

CONNIE WALKER: I'm so sorry. This must be really shocking hearing this. We were friends.

JILL SLIM: The three of us. We were friends.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): We agree to touch base with Jill, and hopefully Gina, later in the day. I sense she's feeling so overwhelmed and we want to give her some space, but we're really hoping she'll agree to meet with us this evening.

CONNIE WALKER: We can call you back in a couple hours.

JILL SLIM: I have so much to do today. [clears throat] Yeah, let me think about it.

CONNIE WALKER: Thank you very much.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Back in the car, Marnie and I are also a bit in shock.

MARNIE LUKE: Yeah.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): We call Heather, our senior producer, on the phone.

HEATHER EVANS: Okay.

CONNIE WALKER: So we have found Cleo. We found... we found Cleo. And the funeral, or the man at the cemetery told us her full name was Cleopatra and her friend knew that was her full name as well. And she, I mean, she recognized her photo.

HEATHER EVANS: Right. Right.

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah.

HEATHER EVANS: Then you have found her.

MARNIE LUKE: I just I keep thinking about Johnny. He's only an hour away from here. And it just... It's just heartbreaking to think that they were only an hour apart when this was happening. Whatever, whatever happened to Cleo.

CONNIE WALKER: Even just the detail that she was like, she was invited to a tree trimming party where everyone brings their own ornament. With other girls in her grade class. It's just, and it was... It just reminds you so close to Christmas. And. Yeah it's just- it's just- it's a lot. It is a lot.

HEATHER EVANS: Yeah.

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah.

HEATHER EVANS: And any one of these things would be a lot on their own and then sort of all to be together in the life of a little girl, basically a young girl.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): We know that we need to tell Cleo's siblings now that we found her. Johnny is just a few hours away in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. We contemplate going to tell him in person. But today is also our only chance to talk more with Jill and her friend Gina. And to hear more about what life was like for Cleo in New Jersey. And before we talk to Cleo's siblings we want to find out more about what happened to her. How did she die? Was she murdered like her family has always believed? Why won't Jill tell us what happened to her? We take Jill's advice and head to the local police station.

CONNIE WALKER: Hi. I'm journalist with The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation in Toronto, Canada and I'm working on a story about a girl who died in New Jersey in 1978. And I'm wondering if anyone from your police department worked here in 1978 who might be able to help?

POLICE OFFICER 1: I don't know. you would have to speak to one of the officers but right now they're all out on a critical case. There's no one here and they might be gone for a couple hours. So do you want me to give you a phone number you can talk to somebody.

CONNIE WALKER: Sure. Yeah.

POLICE OFFICER: I'm gonna give you the number of Lieutenant [inaudible]. He's our public information officer and he might either be able to help you or to direct you.

CONNIE WALKER: And he's not in right now?

POLICE OFFICER 1: There's nobody here right now.

CONNIE WALKER: What's going on?

POLICE OFFICER 1: We're not allowed to discuss it.

SOUNDCLIP

NEWS REPORTER: A police standoff continues to disrupt the South Jersey neighbourhood this afternoon. Well that's where a man has barricaded himself inside of a resident's...

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): The police may not want to tell us but it's all over the local news. So it seems like on duty officers will be tied up today.

POLICE OFFICER 2: I'm so sorry. Normally we'll try to do whatever we could.

CONNIE WALKER: OK. Thanks very much.

POLICE OFFICER 2: Sorry about that.

MARNIE LUKE: We appreciate it.

CONNIE WALKER: Thank you very much.

MARNIE LUKE: So I just got a text from Jill at the funeral home and she says, "I'm going to try to find..."

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Jill and Gina have decided they will meet us tonight.

CONNIE WALKER: That's good. I feel like she's just so overwhelmed in the moment.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): But just to talk. They're not ready for an interview. We meet at a local diner. And as promised we leave our microphone behind. Jill and Gina are clear about their intentions. They're talking to us for Cleo's siblings. They want to help them learn more about their sister. Help them get to know the girl Jill and Gina considered a friend. They're shocked about us showing up out of the blue and were wary about talking to journalists. But the more we talk, the more comfortable they become. They tell us again about the moment they found out that Cleo died. We talked to them for over an hour. It's the most I've heard about what Cleo was like. I don't want to forget a thing so as soon as we're back in the car I go over everything they told us.

CONNIE WALKER: Okay. All right. Where to begin. So we just- we just left the Marlton Diner. Jill remembers her mom sitting down all the girls on a sectional in the living room and her mom sitting on a coffee table and telling all the girls that Cleo died and then all of their mothers came and picked them up and they were all upset. And they also said they remember the funeral was on the 26th but they weren't allowed to go. It was a private funeral.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): They share memories of Cleo and paint a picture of her that I've never heard before.

CONNIE WALKER: They said that she was happy and that she laughed. And that she... she just always had a big smile on her face and she was just a goofball and that she, she was really happy. They just kept saying over and over again...

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): It's such a contrast to Johnny's last memory of Cleo and the Cleo we've been hearing about. The young girl who was taken away from her mother and who was so upset about being sent away for adoption. I hope that hearing about this Cleo, the happy Cleo, gives her family some comfort.

CONNIE WALKER: They said she didn't talk about what happened before she was adopted except once she said something about how her real mom named her Cleopatra. And when we were talking about her other siblings, Gina thought she might have mentioned something about a sister. But they said that she didn't really talk about that.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Jill and Gina brought two photos of Cleo and I was struck by how different they were. The first one was Cleo's Grade 5 class picture taken the year she arrived in New Jersey. Cleo stands out because she's tall and she's wearing a bright yellow top. Gone are her crooked bangs. Her dark brown hair is cut perfectly straight and it looks so shiny. I love this photo because Cleo is smiling and she looks really happy. The second is a black and white photo from her Grade 8 yearbook. Her hair is longer and her face is fuller. Around her neck is a white seashell necklace. Cleo doesn't look like a little girl anymore. She has a small smile on her face but it doesn't look genuine. Underneath the picture it says, "Respectfully remember Cleo Madonia." It was taken just a few months before she died. I wonder what she was going through. What happened in those three years in New Jersey to clear try to run away from here? Why? Was she trying to hitchhike back to Saskatchewan?

CONNIE WALKER: They didn't- they didn't know anything about the Sixties Scoop or about residential schools. Gina just kept saying, 'So they just come into your house and take your kids?' She just seemed really shocked by that. They said that they wanted to meet with Johnny. They wanted to meet with Cleo's siblings. But they both remembered finding out and how they found out about her death. They didn't want to talk about it. They didn't want to tell us how she died. They didn't want to get into that at all but they said you need to get the death certificate. You need to find out on your own.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): But before we go any further we need to talk to Cleo's siblings. To Johnny, Christine, Mark and April. They need to know that we found their sister.

DM: We've been listening to episode four of the CBC original podcast Finding Cleo hosted by CBC reporter Connie Walker. Cleo's story continues on tomorrow's Summer Edition of The Current. And that's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio 1 for Q. Hung Vanngo is the celebrity makeup artist to the stars in Hollywood. He spends a lot of time flying back and forth to Los Angeles. But that trip is nothing compared to the one that brought him to Canada. This morning he'll share his journey from a refugee boat out of Vietnam to salons in Western Canada. That's on Q, coming up next. Earlier in the show we heard about the new Indigenous Languages Project on Google. You can hear samples of languages from Indigenous groups around the world. There are greetings and legends, and in some cases traditional stories or songs. Solange Powou Molu works to promote the Bamum language that she grew up speaking in Cameroon. She recorded a traditional lullaby for the project. We leave you with that today. I'm Duncan McCue. [Indigenous phrase] That means thanks for listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

SOLANGE POWOU MOLU: [Bamum lullaby]

English Translation: Sleep, my child, sleep. / Don't cry, my child, don't cry. / Should I give you your larva, the hen will come and peck it. / But if you eat the hen, then you are the king!

The Current Transcript for August 15, 2019

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

Conservatives may not win new voters, but will use SNC-Lavalin ethics report to galvanize base: pollster

Google Earth project about Indigenous languages feels like 'tourism,' scholar says

Missing and Murdered: Finding Cleo – Episode 4

Aug. 15, 2019 episode transcript

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