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The Current Transcript for December 1, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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We are going to see many HIV new infections because it hasn't left, it's been pushed aside because we are so much worried about covid.

MATT GALLOWAY: It is the first of December. World AIDS Day and the theme for this year is end inequalities and aids and pandemics 40 years after HIV emerged. It's the COVID pandemic that in many ways poses the greatest threat to eradicating AIDS. In an hour, how COVID has impacted the fight against that disease and what the past could teach us about our current fight. Also this morning, your letters about the rising floodwaters in B.C. and how climate change is affecting where we live. And later,

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What interesting Justin calling his album Injustice another album also as Freedom. There is no justice in Saudi Arabia. There is no freedom in Saudi Arabia.

MG: Justin Bieber is set to play Saudi Arabia this weekend in 30 minutes. Why the widow of murdered Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi wants Bieber to cancel that show, and why others accuse the kingdom of trying to launder its human rights record with arts and culture. We start, though, with the story of a Catholic priest and his hidden family. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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The stigma faced by children fathered by priests — and how to dismantle it

Guests: Cameron MacIntosh, Vincent Doyle

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Look at me, I'm pale as pale can be right, and, you know, I was always called the bastard child. To me at a young age, I never understood a nickname that I was given growing up. And it's not a name that I'm proud of either, because it's an insult, you know, it's an insult to who I am and you know, I'm a product of something that I never asked to be a part of. My mother never asked to be a part of, my grandmother never asked to be a part of. They called me Pahkwayis, which Cree is the definition of a Catholic priest. And that's the name they throw at me. You know, I'm that guy.

MG: That's Randal Apetagon from Norway House Manitoba. The 42 year old is remembering the confusion he felt growing up being called names without understanding why the answer is tied to a long held family secret. Randal believes he is the grandson of a Roman Catholic priest, and it's only recently that he's been learning more about his family history, and he suspects there are many others just like him. CBC's national reporter Cameron MacIntosh has been looking into Randall's story, a warning our conversation deals with allegations of abuse in the residential school system. Cameron MacIntosh joins me from Winnipeg. Cameron, good morning.

CAMERON MACINTOSH: Good morning.

MG: Let's go back to those early days of the confusion that Randall faced growing up, what was going on there?

CAMERON MACINTOSH: Well, he spent a lot of time feeling like an outsider in his own family whenever he did visit his extended relatives in Norway House, which is about 450kilometres north of Winnipeg. He says they were unkind to him and his older sisters, they'd mock them and call them things like dirty little Frenchmen. They bully them, he says, sometimes violently, other times just shunning them and keeping their distance. You know, that's behaviour that's continued into adulthood. And all he really knew was that he was different. He and his mom had green eyes and lighter skin than the extended family. Looking back what he believes now, he realises the insults hinted at the family's resentment at the secret.

MG: And it wasn't just his family that was treating him differently.

CAMERON MACINTOSH: No, he was also confused by how someone's treated him the first time he visited a school run by the Roman Catholic Church in Norway House. Here he is telling me about that experience.

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It was like a welcoming committee, like a welcome home type of thing, you know? The nuns in that room welcomed us with arms and hugging. Walking with my mom back with my grandmother. And you know, they were so happy to see her come home. And to me, I didn't really understand. I was thinking, Are these people family? I didn't know, right? The comment of hearing that that's Mary's boy, Mary's boy. How come that's Mary's boy? What was that? They knew who I was.

MG: What does it mean to be Mary's boy?

CAMERON MACINTOSH: Well, Mary was his mother, and the nuns knew Mary and took an interest in her well-being because Randal believes she was the daughter of the of a priest that was formally in charge in Norway House.

MG: The story goes back to the 1940s. Randal's grandmother was a teenager. Then when did he find out that the Reverend Father, Albert Chamberlain, could be his biological grandfather?

CAMERON MACINTOSH: It wasn't until his mother was dying that he found out and really started piecing this all together, he was in his late 20s by then it was 2006. In the weeks leading up to her death, Miriam Tegen revealed that she believed the truth about her past was connected to this priest and that father, Albert Chamberlain, was indeed her biological father.

MG: The CBC found Mary's birth certificate, where her father is listed as William F. taken. What did you find out about that, Cameron?

CAMERON MACINTOSH: So, Randal says after his grandmother, Terese Evans, became pregnant, the church coerced her into marrying a local Freeman William Apetagon to conceal the identity of the baby's father. Now the timeline, it gets a little confusing here, Matt. Evans left school in 1946 at age 15. Multiple people told us she got pregnant while attending the school, but her baby, Mary, her birth certificate, says she was born in 1949. There's also a note on Evans baptism record that says Evans and William Apetagon got married in 1949. Now, as you can imagine, it's hard to find people who are alive back then that have a lucid memory of this. But when we speak to Mona Clark, Mary's cousin, she's 76 now. She was a young child back then, but says Mary, the baby was at that wedding. She told us she remembers going to Terese and William's wedding and cradling her baby cousin in her arms. Another community member told us that it was a well-known but little spoken about secret that Terese came to her marriage with a baby. Many in the community understood the Catholic priest Chamberlain to be the baby's father. Keeping in mind, this is the late forties. The Catholic Church had a lot of influence in that community.

MG: And so Randall has grown up with this suspicion and these questions that have been swirling around his mind. Has he taken a DNA test to try to to find out more information?

CAMERON MACINTOSH: No, not yet. You know, they weren't even really sure how to go about piecing a story together until recently, and they've been becoming increasingly interested in been asking questions of the relatives to learn more. He and I went to the St. Boniface Historical Society archives here in Winnipeg to look up some photos of the priest, and the archive has at least five dozen pictures of Chamberlain. He spent a lot of time in northern Manitoba in his tenure up there is fairly well documented, you know, beginning in his 20s and right up, right up almost until his 80s. So they put together a folder of images that we sat down together and looked at in the reading room, looking through some of these black and white portraits. And he immediately saw his mother's features in the priest's face.

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RANDAL APETAGON: I've seen that face many times.

CAMERON MACINTOSH: So it's September 1926, he's a young man now.

RANDAL APETAGON: Kind of chilly, you know, I'm looking in a mirror or something. I know that expression, that face. I've seen it. The calmness in her stare, you know, she just gazes off to stare off thinking, you know.

CAMERON MACINTOSH: Yeah.

RANDAL APETAGON: But just this man. You know, if I had a picture of my mother to show you right now, the comparison is, Oh my God, you know, it's- you would see that. You could take them and blend them. You'll see that.

MG: He says it's kind of chilly looking at those photos. I mean, it's a really emotional moment in looking back at those pictures. What did it mean to Randall to be able to put a face to Chamberlain?

CAMERON MACINTOSH: Well, you know, sitting there with him, he was clearly struck, you know, and it meant a lot to him. And there is a resemblance there. When you take a look at the pictures of Chamberlain and take a look at the pictures of Mary. You do see a resemblance. You see it in the chin. You can see it a bit in the nose. And you know, for him to, you know, kind of put that together and kind of put this story that's been in the back of his mind for for many years now. And to put a face to that into this, he's a confirmation to a degree in the photos and to see that this isn't just a name, a name that they, you know, pulled out of the sky. And this is something that looks tangible to him. It was it was pretty emotional for him.

MG: You mentioned that the church had a lot of influence in this community. You reached out to the Catholic Church. What sort of response did you get back?

CAMERON MACINTOSH: We tried to get an interview. We reached out to the Archdiocese of Kuwait in Lahore, which is the local archdiocese that still encompasses Norway House. It employed Chamberlain for more than 50 years, and Chamberlain, by the way, is from small town Quebec, but spent decades running missions and residential schools across northern Manitoba and Saskatchewan. Archbishop Murray Chatwin declined an interview but sent a statement where he said in part, And I'm reading here, I am profoundly saddened to read about these allegations. I had no awareness of this family's concerns prior to your email. I take them extremely seriously. We asked the archdiocese if it would be willing to pay for counselling in his email. Archbishop Chatwin told us he'd be willing to again quote "meet with the family, to better understand their situation and explore ways that the diocese can assist them moving forward".

MG: What is Randal looking for?

CAMERON MACINTOSH: He's not entirely sure. This is kind of overwhelming to him. And you know, I put that to him and mostly he wants more residential school survivors and indigenous people to speak out if they're harbouring their own stories. We spoke to others in the community who said they knew Chamberlain to be a known predator to girls and women. An 80 year old man who remembers Chamberlain said the priest approached women inappropriately and said that another woman complained to a bishop and Chamberlain got transferred. Mona Clarke, Mary's cousin, told us Chamberlain got fresh with, in her own words, a woman when they went swimming and another senior accused him of outright sexual assault. When Randal and I were at the archive together, one thing that really stood out to him was Chamberlain's obituary. It shows him from the 1920s and up to his retirement in 1980. Chamberlain was relocated about a dozen times across northern communities Cross Lake, Norway House, Cumberland House, God's Lake. The list really stuck a chord for him. He wonders whether he might have relations elsewhere, or if people in other communities might have similar stories. And he's hoping that maybe this story brings some of that out.

MG: Cameron, thank you very much.

CAMERON MACINTOSH: My pleasure.

MG: Cameron Mackintosh is a CBC national reporter. We reached him in Winnipeg. Support is available for anyone affected by their experience at residential schools and those who are triggered by these reports. You can access emotional and crisis referral services by calling the 24 hour National Crisis Line at 1866 925 4419. In the Catholic Church, clergy take a lifelong vow of celibacy, but all around the world, more people are now coming forward to say that they believe they are the children of priests and bishops. Vincent Doyle is one of them. He's a psychotherapist in Ireland. In his late 20s, he learnt his own biological father was a Roman Catholic priest. He started coaching International, a charity to support the children of priests. Vincent is the author of Our Fathers Vincent. Hello!

VINCENT DOYLE: Good morning, Matt, how are you? I'm well,

MG: thanks. What were through your mind when you heard about Randall appertaining story?

VINCENT DOYLE: Well, this story is really evocative of a systemic process that has occurred as far as the deepest parts of Africa. It's although I say it's not unique. It's very, very serious. The intergenerational nature of abuse that is catalysed and fostered as a result of of silence imposed upon children of priests and religious is really serious and needs to be looked at. There are people listening to your show as we speak, women who are probably quite traumatised by this and the bishops of Canada, though this have encouraged openness towards this. They actively need to speak about it from the pulpit and on good radio shows like this,

MG: you've called an emotional child abuse.

VINCENT DOYLE: Absolutely. The one of the definitions of emotional abuse is premature imposition of responsibility upon a child. So how can any adults expect a child to navigate the world of silence and to understand why, when all of their friends and colleagues in later life speak so freely about their history, yet they're expected that this child is expected to understand and know how to comply with this silence that goes against their nature completely.

MG: How widespread is this issue of children fathered by priests?

VINCENT DOYLE: OK, there's two ways to look at that question. Number one is it's widespread in terms of geographically, which is one 175 countries. That's the amount of countries that children of priests are appearing in coming forward to coping. The second one is widespread in terms of how long has this been going on. You need to look at how many priests have been ordained in Canada over the last 140 years. So a priest who was ordained at that far back their child in theory, would still be alive or would be very elderly, who would have grandchildren, which links him with this situation. So you're looking at a situation that goes back over a century across 175 countries. What has happened interestingly, during COVID 19 that coping has seen is people probably had more time on their hands and started to complete home DNA tests in countries such as Germany, where we had contact from Canada as well. Now, not every country can get them. But what these tests are showing is that a child is told that they are one name when in fact a host of other names shows up, which absolutely contradicts their what they've been told and their family history.

MG: One of the elements to Randal's story that really stands out, I think to a lot of people is that his grandmother was married off to another man, allegedly to cover up the identity of her baby's father. Is that something that's common?

VINCENT DOYLE: It's common to the phenomenon, and it's not unique to Canada, either. We heard stories of that exact nature in parts of Africa and the places that Cameroon, Nigeria, Kenya where you would have priests who had impregnated maybe the young housemaid or it could be rape, it could be a parishioner. Sometimes it was consensual and then the priest or the child is born and with one case where the mother was married off to a gardener. Common to all of these issues around clerical abuse, whether it's psychological or sexual, is appearance to say that appearances were put first. So the situation was normalised and quite perversely, by using a sacrament, a marriage. And it's, you know, the priest got off kind of scot free. He didn't have to own up to his responsibilities and there was no shame or scandal, and there should never be shame or scandal around a child. But unfortunately, that is imposed upon the church by the church and local communities upon children like me about the people who knows he is a child. And they said, Well, we're never going to tell this, but that's not enough. If your child who was born, or indeed the grandchild in this situation, if they decide to do a home DNA test for less than $100 the secret will come out. And to look at it from a church perspective, that is why bishops and religious leaders listing in Canada right now, you need to look at this, not only in terms of their priesthood religious life today, but over the past 100 years, because they have no clue as to the amount of people in their country, both in Canada and then people who claim Canadian origin. That's why it's an issue for the Canadian government, the bishops of Canada and then the authorities over the religious organisations, Jesuits, et cetera. They also need to look at this and because they're their priests, would have gone to parts of the world where it would be unthinkable for a man not to have a family. And oftentimes we have multiple cases where priests have given in and have taken a wife for a partner and fathered multiple children and then retire at home, leaving their children in places as far as Africa and South America.

MG: Has the church ever acknowledged that its priests had fathered children?

VINCENT DOYLE: Well, I may stand corrected on this, but I do not believe that any pope has spoken publicly, especially in recent times, about the issue of priests children. And that is what needs to happen. Within the Canadian context, I have communicated with the Canadian bishops, and they have acknowledged to their credit, but anybody who's affected by this phenomenon can come forward to their local bishop. Now that's grace, and it's really helpful, but they need to say this on their website. They need to say it on a on a news interview and be confirmed that within a case where there's a consensual relationship, that the priest does not have to leave his job but not leaving his job does not mean that he doesn't look after his child. Just before covid hit, the Vatican confirmed that a priest can remain in ministry having fathered a child.

MG: In your work as a psychotherapist, what have you learnt about how this affects someone's sense of identity when they believe they are related to a priest or a bishop, but that's been that's been hushed up, that's been covered up?

VINCENT DOYLE: It's less about being related to a priest and more about how others around you conceive the issue. But look at the issue. So I'm the child of a priest. I could equally be the child of a radio presenter or a bus driver. But how people perceive that issue, how people respond to that, that's where the stigma comes in. The secrecy begins within the domestic, within the home. And then that's strengthened by the default form of silence within the institutional church. What it does to the child and to the adult later and their grandchildren. It nature is the organic psychological processes of openness, transparency and joy. And then that in turn affects how their parents eye defects in terms of employment, education, housing in so many ways, and it continues down the line. The church to the return of Shame have decided that secrecy is the best way to respond to this, and it's absolutely not.

MG: If you don't mind me asking, how has it affected you?

VINCENT DOYLE: Well, I found out in just over 10 years ago, and the initial response was relief. I was delighted to hear that when my 28 year old suspicions were right, I wasn't just deluded into thinking this intimate connexion with this man who happened to be a priest and was now dead. And was I stigmatised? You bet your bottom dollar I was stigmatised. And I have been, I've got phone calls late at night. I've been called profane names and I have been asked to leave my home country. The lasting stigma is, it's so harmful to people.

MG: Do you think the church will take responsibility for this, for what you went through and for what others have gone through?

VINCENT DOYLE: Not until the Pope stands up and talks about it, no I don 't. Unless you address the neglect imposed upon these children, you could say that your silence enables it.

MG: Vincent Doyle, it's good to speak with you. Thank you very much.

VINCENT DOYLE: Thank you.

MG: Vincent Doyle is a psychotherapist in Ireland. CBC is continuing to investigate the harms caused by residential schools. If you have a story to share, you can contact our team confidentially by emailing. Wherearethey -All one word, wherearethey@cbc.ca or call toll free 1833 824 0800. Your CBC News is next.

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And then to see someone a really famous, then he's going and performing in Saudi Arabia at this time. It is so, so weird. It's a shame. These people are the killers.

MG: Those people are Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman and his allies. In six minutes, why a murdered journalist's fiancee is calling for Justin Bieber to stand with her and against Saudi Arabia. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One.

Saudi Arabia is using Justin Bieber, F1 event to 'whitewash' its human rights record: Human Rights Watch

Guests: Aya Batrawy, Farida Deif

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

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Still to come, when the pandemic hit, health care systems turned to face the threat, and that meant in some ways those systems turned away from other illnesses like HIV aids that's had consequences, and people on the front line say things could get worse in just under 30 minutes. What COVID has meant for the progress against HIV and other viruses. But first, three years after the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi, his fiancée has not stopped pushing for justice.

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VOICE 1: What is it that you miss the most about Jamal.

VOICE 2: His voice, his faith? He was a really cute person. More than husband and lower and boyfriend, and he's like my, my father and my, my brother and my mother, sometimes advisor and a teacher, best friend. I loved him a lot. Yes, everyone knows now they killed him Jamal, but I think Jamal voice in everywhere. Mine voice, Jamal voice, I try to keep this story alive.

MG: Hatice Cengiz, the fiancee of slain Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi speaking with Scandinavian television last year. Since his killing by Saudi agents in Turkey in October of 2018, Cengiz has used her voice to press for those responsible to be brought to justice. Now she's calling on the Canadian pop superstar Justin Bieber to do the same by taking a stand against Saudi Arabia's human rights abuses. Bieber is scheduled to give a concert in Jeddah on December the 5th as part of a Formula One race. But in an open letter to the singer, published recently in The Washington Post, Cengiz wrote, "Do not sing for the murderers of my beloved Jamal". She also had this to say:

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When I heard that Justin will sing in Saudi Arabia. It is so, so weird. It's a shame for for someone like a singer, very famous singer. It is very, very important to remind him again that the Saudi do not deserve that job. There is no justice in Saudi Arabia. There is no freedom in Saudi Arabia because the the crown prince kills Jamal. So what is interesting, Justin calling his album is a justice and another album, also as Freedom. When he called his album Justice. He has to be in side of justice.

MG: Aya Batrawi is an Associated Press reporter in the Arabian Peninsula who covers Saudi Arabia and has been reporting on this story. Aya, hello.

AYA BATRAWY: Hi.

MG: Why is Saudi Arabia hosting this Formula One race with Justin Bieber performing?

AYA BATRAWY: Right. So it really began with the crown prince trying to modernise and reform the kingdom and just open it up to, you know, the world and bring it into the 21st century. So he ushered in a huge raft of reforms, like allowing women to finally drive cars, you know, allowing women to travel without the permission of a husband or a father, even a son in some cases of male guardianship, but also allowing concerts, music, sports events on an international scale to come to Saudi Arabia to then hopefully with that attract investors, attract tourism dollars and create jobs. Most importantly, for the millions of young Saudis, in a country that he is set to inherit, the majority of people are young. And so part of that effort is to bring, you know, pop stars to a country like Saudi Arabia that is 30 million people. It has one of the world's 20 strongest economy as part of the G20. It's one of the world's biggest oil producers. So in his mind, this is this is what Saudi should have always been doing.

MG: Who'd be able to go to this race or attend the Bieber concert?

AYA BATRAWY: So, you know, if the price point for some of these, you know, high scale concerts and Formula One races and others is going to be out of reach for the average Saudi who earns a few hundred dollars a month and relies on government subsidies for the rest. So this is going to be an elite crowd. This is going to be a liberal crowd. This is going to be a crowd that has probably travelled and seen concerts like this abroad anyways, has been a lot of these races. Don't forget, Saudi is a very wealthy country as well. There's a lot of wealth concentrated in certain families and regions, so that'll be the crowd that will mostly be there.

MG: The organisers of this, the Formula One organisers, have faced fierce pressure and many, many pointed questions as to why they would hold this race in a country with such a poor human rights record. The organisers have said that events like this could open the door to reform or cultural change over the long term. Do you think, given the reporting that you've done on the ground, do you think that's how some young Saudis would see it, that this is is part of a cultural opening?

AYA BATRAWY: Right, so the government's point of view, like you said, very much mixed with this, you know, Formula One organisers are, which is that sports is a form of modernisation, allowing women to not just participate in sports, but even just be present in the presence of other men without that segregated barrier. It was only recently that women were even allowed to attend sports in stadiums and play sports and private schools. It wasn't that long ago. I've been reporting the country over the last eight years, nine years, so this has all happened, I think, for for young Saudis. You know, a lot of them say, like, why should the whole country and all of us be punished for political decisions or decisions that might be targeted towards one person in our government? And the reality is, and of course, it's very difficult to get popular opinion polls or any real clarity on what people really think politically because there is this crackdown that has happened on human rights activists, women's rights activists, anyone even perceived as slightly critical or not cheerleading enough the policies of the crown prince. But generally, I think it is fair to say from my reporting many times over that the crown prince is popular amongst a lot of young Saudis for the reforms that he ushered in. And a lot of young Saudis, just like a lot of Canadians or Americans or anywhere, aren't that politicised to begin with, they're not involved with the political decision making. They tend to trust their king. This is not a democracy. There's no elections. So they tend to just, you know, in trust in their leadership. And I think they're seeing the crown prince on the ground, making a lot of changes that are popular.

MG: So I mean, and as you said, it's difficult to know what people think about the protests because of the crackdown, and they're worried that they could be caught up in that crackdown. But this the calls for Justin Bieber to cancel this concert are getting a lot of attention here in Canada, obviously his home country, but elsewhere in North America. Is there any sense as to how much of an impact that's likely to have in Saudi Arabia?

AYA BATRAWY: I think with the kingdom and rightly so, there's a lot of focus on human rights and human rights record of the kingdom because it has been over the last few years worse than at any time that I can recollect. The crackdown has been so massive and so sweeping, and in some cases, really unprecedented. I mean, there isn't really anyone at any level of society that's been spared. Even princes have been arrested or detained or whatever, so it's gone from all the way down. But I think to get to your point, this isn't the first time that the Crown Prince has faced this question. Right after Khashoggi's killing, inside the Saudi consulate in Istanbul by Saudi agents who worked for the crown prince, Mariah Carey showed up in Saudi Arabia for a concert, just a few months after that or maybe it was even a few weeks. And there was a lot of calls for her not to do that concert. The timing was so sensitive still. He was still shunned internationally, and she just said, Look, this is about my fans and this is about the Saudi public and this is me making a statement. I think in some ways to put that kind of mantle on the shoulders of celebrities that they're supposed to carry the light of justice or take a political stand might be a bit much for a lot of celebrities to wade into. And also interesting, I don't know if you were going to ask me about this, but you know, the kingdom, they have faced a lot of these calls for boycotts of sports events for people to boycott, you know, participating in concerts. They went and purchased a huge stake in the company during the pandemic, when the stocks were at like $30 a share and now there, like 120. So at a really low price and

MG: This is Live Nation like the largest concert promoter, perhaps in the world.

AYA BATRAWY: Right. And they I mean, this is how celebrity stars like Taylor Swift and just this is really where they make their money is on tour. It's not from their album sales. So they went and they purchased their the second largest investor in this company that runs Ticketmaster and organises and promotes concerts. Now, of course, this Justin Bieber concert is not part of his upcoming tour, which starts in February. It's for Formula One. But I think, you know, it's important to keep in mind that you know that that could be a factor going forward.

MG: Well, connect the dots a little bit more there. I mean, you can imagine artists and, you know, sports organisers saying, Well, we're coming as part of some cultural awakening. They're also coming because there are going to be paid a lot of money.

AYA BATRAWY: Yeah, I mean, the sums are, you know, never disclosed on either side, neither the Saudis nor the celebrities will say how many tens of millions they're paid for these events. But there are celebrities who have turned that money down. Nicki Minaj, turn that money down, turn down her participation in a concert after a public outcry from her own fans. It was a bit misplaced. I mean, she was saying like, I don't want to participate in a country where, you know, people, you know, for homosexual crimes can be killed or whatever. I haven't seen anyone, you know, murdered or executed for homosexual crimes since, you know, for years and years or decades. I mean, it's criminalised across the Muslim world. It's very rare that you actually see an execution happening as a result. But, you know, so there is like a little bit of a stigma maybe attached to some of these laws, whether they're applied or not. But she did. She did turn turn it down. So there has been, but that was rare, and I can't think of anyone else who has recently, also.

MG: The push for Justin Bieber to cancel the concert comes from the fiance of Jamal Khashoggi. She and other critics say the justice still has not been served for his murder. Is your sense that she will see justice in this case?

AYA BATRAWY: Well, just to clarify to, you know, the I think the loudest push has come from her, but there have been, of course, organisations like Human Rights Watch and others and of course, Saudi activists in exile who are forced into exile because they cannot return because they've been outspoken have also called for celebrities not to show up in Saudi Arabia, not to sort of legitimise these events and the kingdom's policies. Because the money for these events, an organisation comes from the top down. It does come from the government and all decision making at this level would be with the crown prince. As far as justice goes, look, the kingdom has has had its own flawed trial. I think internationally it's been seen as flawed in the sense that the five who were found guilty for this murder, none of them were the ones who had authorised this operation. None of them were in charge. There was nobody in leadership in charge of this operation found guilty. So that left a lot of question marks. And then they were also spared of execution under a forgiveness clause and Saudi Islamic law. So it certainly left a lot of question marks about, you know, whether this case truly was independent and free as as most cases in Saudi also raise those questions. So in her case, I don't know what kind of justice she would be seeking. But but most likely, you know, for the Saudis, at least, this case has been closed. And I know that Turkey, the Turkish authorities, because this happened on Turkish soil, have been pursuing a case of their own. But of course, everyone who would be in that case is not in Turkey or under custody in Turkey.

MG: Just before I let you go is your sense. Knowing the country that the crown prince would be affected would be troubled, would be paying attention at all to these sorts of protests.

AYA BATRAWY: You know, the crown prince is very sensitive and astute to public opinion, and that may be why an operation to get Khashoggi happened to begin with because he was outspoken in The Washington Post at a time when everyone was hailing the crown prince. Not everyone, but I say a lot of politicians and a lot of public figures were hailing the crown prince for these reforms. At the same time, there was this crackdown happening. This is not this crackdown didn't begin or end with Jamal Khashoggi's killing, his crackdown on human rights on on critics, on anyone perceived as not supporting the crown prince's foreign policies or domestic policies. So for sure. You know, he is paying attention to this kind of rhetoric. And of course, she is not the only one speaking out.

MG: Hey, we'll leave it there. It's good to speak with you. Thank you very much.

AYA BATRAWY: Thank you.

MG: Aya Batrawy is with The Associated Press, a reporter in the Arabian Peninsula. We reached her in Dubai. Fareed Atif is the Canada director of Human Rights Watch, one of the groups, as you mentioned, that has been urging celebrities not to perform in Saudi Arabia. She is in Toronto. Good morning to you.

FARIDA DEIF: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What do you make of this call by many others, including Jamal Khashoggi's fiancee for Justin Bieber to cancel this concert upcoming this weekend in Jeddah?

FARIDA DEIF: Well, I think what what's clear is that Justin Bieber and other celebrities are being used by Saudi Arabia to to deflect from the country's image as a pervasive human rights violator. And so what should be happening is that these celebrities should either be vocally speaking out about human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia or not perform because the concert is clearly part of Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman's efforts and a campaign to whitewash his human rights record to deflect attention from the brutal murder of Jamal Khashoggi. So it really is important for performers and entertainers who are involved to not allow their name and their talent to be used to restore the reputation of this government.

MG: You've called this image laundering. What are some of the other examples aside from this concert and this race of so-called image laundering within Saudi Arabia?

FARIDA DEIF: Well, the Saudi government has spent billions of dollars hosting major entertainment, cultural and sporting events like the golf tournaments, the Saudi Invitational Golf Tournament, professional wrestling events the Dakar Rally. Brought in since 2008, performers like Jennifer Lopez, Mariah Carey, 50 Cent, et cetera. And all of this is a very deliberate strategy by the crown prince to deflect from the country's record as a pervasive human rights violator. And so, as part of his Vision 2030, which is a plan to overhaul the country's economy and attract foreign investors, he needs to create a local entertainment industry and attract top talent from across the globe to enhance the image of the kingdom internationally. And sports is part of that. You know, sports washing is really an effort to distract from serious, serious human rights abuses. We've seen this happen and you know, in Qatar in, you know, that's hosting the World Cup in in China as well in terms of the Olympics. So you use, you know, a celebration of human achievement in sports to distract from serious human rights abuses that are happening in your country.

MG: What do you make of the line that was offered by Formula One organisers? And again? I mean, we've heard this over time. You go back to the Olympics in Beijing in 2008 that these events help open up the country to the outside world, that they helped pave the way for reforms. What do you make of that?

FARIDA DEIF: I mean, I think we have little to no, no examples of that actually happening in real time. Right. So what we've seen is either abuses occur in the lead up to these major events or, you know, by, you know, for example, in Qatar, we've seen sort of migrants, you know, deplorable abuses against migrant workers who were involved in building the stadiums, et cetera. We've seen that what happens is perhaps a a short period of of, you know, freezing of these types of abuses. But every, you know, under the surface, everything is still happening. We've seen, you know, Saudi Arabia is a systematic human rights abuser and pervasive human rights abuser. And you know, those the the the dramatic curtailing in civil and political rights in the country are not going to stop because of a Formula One Grand Prix race that's happening across the board. And it's a system of repression that won't change because of of a sporting event or a cultural event. In fact, what happens is it allows the government to to continue without accountability. It undermines any efforts to hold Saudi officials accountable or to scrutinise the Saudi government human rights record. Because, you know, you have this sort of veneer and the spotlight on something very different, which is a big sporting event.

MG: And so I don't know that the world is looking to Justin Bieber for information on human rights, but he is a global pop star. He's enormously popular and has currency around the world. What would it mean for him in fourth for what you've been talking about if he were to cancel this concert? Is it anything more than a symbolic gesture or would it pressure the regime to think differently about what it's doing?

FARIDA DEIF: Well, I think he has a very powerful voice. And what we saw before, as your previous speaker mentioned, there have been other powerful voices that have basically declined invitations to to perform. They've turned it down. Both celebrities, but also kind of large investors like Richard Branson of the Virgin Group, who suspended his partnership with Saudi Arabia for its space tourism venture. And so they sent a very important message both internationally and to Saudi Arabia, that they're not going to be used as part of this effort to whitewash Saudi's human rights abuses. They're not going to be used in such a way, and Saudi Arabia actually needs to commit to real reforms, not with these types of sort of spectacles that really don't reform anything at all. And so those are important messages. I mean, whether it's Justin Bieber or a host of other celebrities that can be doing that, I think once there's a larger wave of celebrities that are declining these invitations to to kind of be used by the Saudi authorities in this way. I think it will send a powerful message both to the outside world as well as to Saudi authorities.

MG: And to governments, perhaps as well. I mean, what could a government like the government of this country do to press for justice in the case of Jamal Khashoggi and to press for other improvements in Saudi Arabia's human rights record?

FARIDA DEIF: Well, I mean, I think there's a tremendous amount that Canada can do to be far more vocal than it is on the international stage on Saudi human rights abuses. What we saw, you know a few years ago, is that Saudi Arabia hosted the G20 summit. It was a virtual summit because of the pandemic. Canada attended as a member of the G20. And at the time, we called on Canada to really and then Prime Minister Trudeau to be very vocal about Saudi human rights abuses, not only because of the level of repression that we've seen under Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman since 2017, but also because Saudi Arabia's targeting Saudis, who had hoped to find safe haven here in Canada through digital espionage through an alleged extrajudicial killing attempt on Canadian soil. And so these abuses are not strictly in Saudi Arabia, and what we saw with the Jamal Khashoggi murder is that in fact, Saudi Arabia targets dissidents everywhere they are, including here in Canada. And so it's very important for the prime minister and the government of Canada to speak out vocally on human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia to not to ensure that every dialogue with Saudi Arabia includes human rights to ensure that there really is a sense that those types of abuses on foreign soil are unacceptable and won't be accepted by the international community. And that accountability has still not been achieved with the Jamal Khashoggi murder murder that the top high level officials have not been reprimanded in any way. They have not been held accountable. That really is only a low level member of I of Saudi officials who carried it out, but weren't the, you know, coordinating masterminds that were held accountable. And so that I think it's very important for the international community, including Canada, to not welcome back Saudi Arabia with open arms and forget about what happened three years ago in that consulate in Istanbul. But to ensure that accountability and justice is achieved for Jamal Khashoggi, his widow and her family.

MG: Just in the last couple of minutes that we have, I mean, if you move beyond Saudi Arabia, we have a Winter Olympics coming up in China in February amid ongoing concerns around that country's treatment of ethnic and religious minorities, its Uyghur population. People have labelled this a genocide. What's going on? And that's just one part of what's happening in China. People have said that this is is image laundering as well. If you take it, look at that. It's not a cultural event, but it is a cultural event. Should athletes be attending those Olympics in Beijing? Given what you have said and the ramifications of what that could mean to China and the rest of the world?

FARIDA DEIF: Yeah, I mean, it's it's very difficult because I think for for any organisation, it's difficult to call for a full kind of boycott of an event. And I know that those are calls that are being made by members of Parliament here in Canada. And you know, for for us, I think what's important is, you know, these we're not calling for a boycott of all types of events, but really where there is pervasive human rights abuses, where there are where it's clear that the event itself to be carried out, you know, involves human rights abuses, involves, you know, evacuating communities from areas in which those, you know, the stadiums are being built, et cetera, that those types of events government should really, you know, focus on and see whether or not it makes sense to participate and at what level.

MG: And so I mean, where where does China fit into that China? It sounds like, would fit into that.

FARIDA DEIF: Sure. And what we've been calling for is a diplomatic boycott of of the of the Olympics. What that means is that government officials from Canada and other countries shouldn't be. At these stadiums shouldn't be kind of clapping at these stadiums for, you know, their athletes and for these events, because that allows the Chinese authorities who are committing very systemic human rights abuses that amount to crimes against humanity to really just be allowed to celebrate their achievements while, you know, committing all of these abuses. And so whether or not athletes should participate or not, that's really up to them. But in terms of government officials, the diplomats themselves, they shouldn't be part of this type of sports washing that's happening by systemic human rights abusers.

MG: Frida, good to speak with you. Thank you very much.

FARIDA DEIF: Thank you.

MG: Farida Deif is the Canada director of Human Rights Watch. Your thoughts welcome. You can email us The Current at CBC.ca or on Twitter at The Current CBC. Coming up after your regional update.

SOUNDCLIP

We had people dying HIV positive. You can be able to take care of themselves, and the clinics are very busy. I am not saying we must not be worried about COVID, but we must not neglect the other infections, other chronic illnesses.

MG: Controlling COVID has been no easy task in the process of trying, though we may have been undoing years of progress in tackling HIV and AIDS in 90 seconds. We'll talk more about that and what can be done to remedy it. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current on CBC Radio One.

How COVID-19 has affected the fight against HIV/AIDS

Guests: Hombisa Ntsikanye, Mitchell Warren, Liz Hoath

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway, you're listening to The Current. It has been four decades since the world discovered the HIV virus that causes AIDS. In that time, it's gone from an uncontrollable killer to a manageable and treatable illness with proper medication. All those decades of lessons learnt can now be applied to our fight against COVID 19. But in some ways, the pandemic has been a giant step backwards in our efforts to eradicate HIV and AIDS. Hombisa Ntsikanye is an implementer and developer at the South African NGO Blue Roof Life Space. This or ganisation has been looking at creative ways to address HIV in their communities following a shutdown in services caused by the pandemic. Hombisa joins me from Durban, South Africa. Besa Hello.

HOMBISA NTSIKANYE: Hello, Mitt. Thank you for having me.

MG: Thank you for being here. When the pandemic began. Would you have ever imagined that the work that you do in addressing HIV and AIDS would be affected to the degree that it has been met?

HOMBISA NTSIKANYE: Everything happened so fast. The kind of emotion we're so mu ch packed together and everything was a shock and in our work and also in the country as a whole.

MG: And now we're in the time of Omicron, this new variant and we're seeing travel bans from countries from southern Africa wouldn't impact do you think that's going to have?

HOMBISA NTSIKANYE: We crossing our fingers. We do not kno. We still at the very early stages to determine how much effect we have on this.

MG: Tell me specifically what services at Blue Roof have been disrupted over the last 20 months or so?

HOMBISA NTSIKANYE: You mean we had to transfer out our patients to to government clinics, and those government clinics would be closer to their homes. And also, we stopped the campaigns that we were doing to our communities, door to door campaigns because of the travel restrictions, and also had to stop the in-person services for HIV testing.

MG: I want to talk about testing in a moment, but for treatment, what has that meant for patients and their ability to get treatment?

HOMBISA NTSIKANYE: The problem with that treatment is if a person, if they don't take their medication the way they supposed to be in it has got a very bad impact in their lives. And also, we have a problem of running out of the medication and where are they going to get a refill for their treatment.

MG: Are people dying because they can't get the treatment?

HOMBISA NTSIKANYE: If I can tell you of one grandmother, the grandson phoned me, it was the beginning of the year, and the grandson also is a patient. He called me and said, Well, he said, Hombisa where are you at home? I want to tell you this. My grandmother passed. For me, not that I was- I was prepared, actually, to hear about those news because the first question that we asked when we were transferring them out [unintelligible] said, Where are you taking us? Do you know that if the government facilities are so full up to the rim? Do you know that when you're taking us to those facilities, those facilities, not that they're not good, but now they are very much worried about the COVID. They no more worried about us. They know more worried about patients that are HIV positive, that have got AIDS. So what? What are you? Where are we taking them? And when I was busy consoling this, the grandson, he told me that his grandmother, her hypertension was to the roof. She was very much worried up to the point that her BP, blood pressure, went up. So all of those things was so shocking and so worrying and also with the people that in the household seeing someone dying because of the medication, because of being HIV positive. So yeah, we had people dying, if I can tell you that. So I'm telling you one story. But we had lots of deaths of people not taking their medication the right way that they supposed to because of clinics now being full. They can't be able to take care of themselves, and the clinics are very busy with a new pandemic.

MG: Yeah, I'd said in the introduction that there are creative ways that you are addressing the issues around HIV in the communities given COVID. How are you approaching testing, for example, given the fact that there have been lockdowns that people feel less comfortable in moving around in public spaces? What is the testing protocol like now?

HOMBISA NTSIKANYE: I'm at what I can say about us. We are not scared to take up a new innovations. We've developed there that the programme is called, Talk Test Treat. A person is going to order online the postal self-test kits and it is user friendly. We're going to order online and also book the themselves force for counselling wherever they are. They can do this.

MG: And so this is this is a home testing programme so people would test themselves, but also then speak with a counsellor as they're going through that process.

HOMBISA NTSIKANYE: Definition meant they can do HIV, self-test at their homes, with their partners, with your friends, wherever they are and be can be able to order for the counselling.

MG: HIV has been in some ways overshadowed by the COVID pandemic. What are you most concerned about if that continues and the HIV epidemic doesn't get the attention that it deserves because we're dealing with this other crisis right now?

HOMBISA NTSIKANYE: For me, looking at the neglect, I'm going to call it neglect. I feel that HIV patients, it's come to a point where it's been pushed aside. We are going to see many HIV new infections because he hasn't left. HIV is there. We know that HIV compromises the immune system. And if anything has to do with the immune system, because it needs the medication, it's on medication that is going to suppress the virus. And if that has been neglected, what I was saying and what we wanted to see in two years to come. I am not happy at all because my fear is that we exposing many people to this. Image in the new person that is being exposed to HIV, that is infected to HIV and not getting treatment and not getting any support because we are so much worried about COVID. I am not saying we must not be worried about COVID, but we must not neglect the other infections, other chronic illnesses that have been there.

MG: And that's your concern that that's what's happening now, but that that has been happening from long before before COVID appeared.

HOMBISA NTSIKANYE: Exactly. And remember, with the time of TB, that is what happened. Also, we neglected TB. We went straight to HIV. Not that TB was or was not there. It was there. And it became the most of the cause of death in South Africa because we didn't look at the TB problem that we had before HIV. Same thing is happening for TB. That is a problem. We've got HIV. But if we do not take care of all of those things, we are going to see the COVID as a very big problem. But if we are taking care of those chronic illnesses, COVID is going to come, but is not going to kill if everyone is on the medication.

MG: That's an important warning. I'm glad to hear about the work that you're doing. Hombisa, thank you very much.

HOMBISA NTSIKANYE: Thank you so much.

MG: Hombisa Ntsikanye is the implementer and developer of the HIV and AIDS programme at Blue Roof Life Space in South Africa. Mitchell Warren is executive director of the AIDS Vaccine Advocacy Coalition. It was founded in 1995 by nine HIV treatment activists. It's now a leader in the global movement to prevent the transmission of HIV. He is in New York City. Mitchell, good morning to you.

MITCHELL WARREN: Hello, Matt, thanks so much for having me.

MG: Thank you for joining us. What do you make of what you've heard from Mombasa that in some ways and this happened even before COVID that HIV has been pushed aside?

MITCHELL WARREN: Absolutely. You know, which he described is is so real and not just in Durban, but throughout the world, really. And it really speaks to how we, you know, we use the word pandemic a lot now, and the pandemic is a global epidemic, and HIV and TB have been global pandemics. And yet, because those diseases seem most often to affect and infect people who are often marginalised and stigmatised, we don't think of it in many other parts of the world. But COVID because it is impacting every place in the world and everybody is at risk. We see the urgency the political will, the financial commitments to respond to COVID, and we haven't seen that ever for HIV, for TB. And they are just as pandemic pre the emergence of SARS-CoV-2 two years ago as they are today, and the risk of really losing the gains that had been made for against both HIV and TB are being lost in real time over the last two years. And and I believe what's beginning to happen is we end up playing a bit of what I think of as global health Whack-A-Mole. You know, we respond to COVID, but HIV and TB pop up. So now we might turn our attention, hopefully back to HIV. But then will another pathogen emerge? So for me, this is a reality check about how we rethink the entire global health architecture and global health response.

MG: What progress has been made in the last 40 years? I mean, when HIV and AIDS first appeared, it was a death sentence for many people.

MITCHELL WARREN: It is remarkable to think that today, with 40 million people living with HIV, over 24 million of them are living incredibly healthy lives on antiretroviral medication. And we now know very clearly that people are on their antiretrovirals and their virus becomes undetectable as it will if people adhere to treatment. They are untranslatable as well. But just do the maths. You still have this gap of over six million people who aren't yet on treatment and. And so while there's been great progress, there are still significant gaps in both the treatment response, but even more than that in the prevention response. We are at a point in prevention where we have reached kind of a stagnation. We have the relatively same number of new infections every year around the world, about a million and a half new infections and and that's down to three million from 15 years ago. So that's important and significant. But we've plateaued at that 1.5 million new infections so that the end of this year, because fewer people are dying, we're going to have forty one and a half million people in need of antiretroviral treatment. So we have got to prioritise primary prevention. That's how we end pandemics and we have to do that for HIV. And just as we do it for [unintelliglbe].

MG: How much of the stigma has been erased? I mean, we know that this this exists throughout the world in varying degrees when it comes to the stigma around HIV and AIDS. Where where is that at right now?

MITCHELL WARREN: Oh, sadly, the stigma of HIV from 1981, when it was first identified until 2021, 40 years remains as bad or worse, and I again, I think this really speaks to the challenge we have. And and you know, as much as we look for biomedical advances, both antiretroviral treatments, research on a vaccine that continues for HIV, that stigma will never have a vaccine. Unfortunately, this remains a disease that's very stigmatised in some countries, even criminalised.

MG: Are you surprised at that? Stigma is still as forceful as it is now?

MITCHELL WARREN: A colleague of mine once said he got to the point where he was never surprised but frequently appalled. And I believe that that's really where I would put my views on this. It is not surprising because of the way in which these health issues actually transcend health. They transcend a virus or a passage, and we even see it in COVID. We see it even this last weekend with the al-Muqrin variant where where we saw a degree of stigma said in a degree of a fear, a degree of xenophobia, a degree of not following science and human rights. And so we've really got to address that because at the end of the day, any of these pathogens, any of these viruses that come pandemics are never just about the virus, they're never just about the science, they're fundamentally about people. And I think that's where we have often failed. We even see it. I would argue in the current inequitable distribution of COVID vaccines that we we rightly design products, vaccines and treatments and prevention options around the virus. But we need to design the programmes around the people.

MG: What could those who are designing the fight against COVID learn from the fight against HIV and AIDS?

MITCHELL WARREN: First and foremost, I would say the most important lesson is to follow the science and and when you begin to develop policies out of fear. And again, we saw that in the early 80s in the United States, under under, then President Reagan, and we saw it actually in the early part of the COVID response in the United States. When you when you let politics and and stigma and opinion drive the response, you fail and the virus wins. So first and foremost, follow the science. Second, you've got to involve community and civil society from the beginning. You know, a lot of the excitement of the last year has been the remarkable advance in science around COVID vaccines. And yet we see in country after country that simply because we build it, people don't necessarily come whether they are not trusting of the vaccine, whether they are not trusting of the health system, whether they are not trusting of the larger environment, you know, because we thought, Oh, we're going to develop a vaccine and now people are just going to come lining up. Well, they don't always because we didn't involve communities appropriately from the outset. And then thirdly, it is about this idea of a comprehensive, integrated and sustained response. I mean, it's never just about a vaccine. It's never just about antiretroviral treatment. It's never just about condoms. It's never just about stigma. It's about all of those things at once. And again, I would argue, just as we think condoms plus oral prep plus antiretroviral treatment is part of a comprehensive AIDS response. Vaccines and masking and social distancing remain a comprehensive part of the COVID response. So for me, those three things are not new because of COVID, we knew them from HIV, follow the science, engage communities and develop a truly comprehensive, integrated and sustained response.

MG: And equitable, as well.

MITCHELL WARREN: And that would be the fourth lesson that we actually still have not learnt that. And that's what's probably the most frustrating aspect of this, that if we don't leave with equity, we don't end epidemics. That is that is the basic lesson in all of this. Equity has got to be the driver of this, and we can do a great job of protecting a few people from HIV or a few people from COVID. But that doesn't stop a pandemic. If we are not equitable, we do not stop pandemics and viruses win. You know, at the end of the day, epidemics, pandemics, it's really a race between human and pathogen. And when we don't do it with equity, the virus with

MG: Mitchell, it's great to speak with you. I really appreciate your time. Thank you very much.

MITCHELL WARREN: Thank you so much, man.

MG: Mitchell Warren is executive director of Avec the AIDS Vaccine Advocacy Coalition. He was in New York City. My name is Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: At the peak, it was ripping those trees out with ease. It was mind boggling to really look at it and to listen to it.

VOICE 2: I have plenty of food. I have heat. I would be a nuisance on the highways and the emergency service centres. That's why I stayed and

VOICE 3: I'm going to do whatever I can to raise funds because I hate when my family is hurting and marriage is like family, so I'm going to do what I can.

MG: Those are some of the people I spoke with last week when I was in the interior of British Columbia. We were there covering the flooding that that region has been seeing over the last few weeks. Liz Hoath is a senior producer on The Current. She's based in Vancouver. She was with me on that trip, and she's here now to help me go through some of your responses to those stories. Liz, good morning.

LIZ HOATH: Good morning, Matt.

MG: This is not a story that is finished where you are. It's still unfolding at this moment.

LIZ HOATH: Yeah, it sure is. We've just been hit with the third atmospheric river to hit the region in as many weeks is absolutely pouring rain yesterday. So that means that thousands of people are still out of their homes not knowing when they'll go back. Every day, it seems there's a few more evacuation orders in different parts of the province. Different highways keep getting closed. There were mudslides yesterday in Chilliwack. It's really been something to see.

MG: And it's awful news for merit and for those people who are in that city that were forced out of their homes told to leave. Some 7000 people told to get out of their homes.

LIZ HOATH: Yeah, it's certainly not over for them. I mean, they're watching the weather because they're in different places around the province, there in Kamloops, there in Kelowna, and they're all over the place. They're wondering when they can get back to their homes. They were apparently letting some people back on day passes to take a look at damage and retrieve belongings. But that got cancelled again on the weekend because of the heavy rains. Again, it just wasn't safe to have people in that city.

MG: It's remarkable. I mean, we were up on a little hill overlooking the town, and you could see I mean, I said it was eerie. You could just see how little activity, how little life there was in the city of Maori.

LIZ HOATH: Yeah, it was so strange looking at it from above, like a normally bustling little city and there were just simply no cars on the streets. It was just heavy machinery. It was dump trucks, it was bulldozers. They were they were trying to clear the debris in the mud and trying to make it liveable again and of course, trying to protect it from the future rains that are still coming down. And even the whole area around Merritt, it was very odd to be in a region that I've driven through so many times, and it's normally a very busy highway. And when we were there, it was just the odd semi-truck coming and going. A few people were coming back to their homes in the higher areas, but it was very quiet. With the restaurants closed, most of the gas stations closed, most of the stores closed. It's just a very different merit than than what we're used to.

MG: And you really feel it in conversation with someone like Elijah Mac, who we met in Kamloops, who runs a little cafe there and has no idea when he's going to be back because his area is in the part of the town, which will be the last to be let back in there. It's dramatic and this is something that that people right across the country have been paying attention to and in part reacting to, because this is something that they have been dealing with themselves.

LIZ HOATH: Oh, for sure, this is something that people coast to coast to coast in this country have been dealing with for years. I mean, more so lately, obviously, but we got lots of letters about this. So let's start with Gracie Wilson, who's writing from Victoria, B.C. She writes, I grew up in Prince George, where my parents' home was built on a flood plain. Winter floods of our basement were a regular occurrence when ice jams forced the waters beyond the banks. After I left home, I worked for the BC Wildfire Service in Kamloops and worked on fires for many years. In those same years, I filled sandbags. I built walls around homes all over the interior and watched as homes were damaged by both floods and fires in the same year. Being involved in emergency response has changed my perspective on so many aspects of how we live. As I know that when nature truly decides to show us what she's got, there's very little we can do about it. These experiences have not only changed my thoughts on where we live, but also how we live. The idea of tiny homes on wheels that can be moved when necessary is so much more appealing in face of ever increasing natural disasters. I think that a massive shift in the way we live our lives is going to be necessary in the coming years as we try to adapt to the realities of climate change.

MG: That kind of massive shift was something that we spoke with a man named John Anderson about. He's a rancher and he finds himself on his ranch. Not so far away from here.

LIZ HOATH: Yes, in the beautiful Nicola Valley Mountains on one side, the river on the other. Let's just go back there for a second. Here's what we heard when we stepped out of the car.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Cows mooing]

MG: That's a lot of cows.

LIZ HOATH: That is a lot of cows, and that's apparently what they sound like when they're taken away from their mothers for the first time. John says they'll be absolutely fine in a couple of days or just a little bit sad for now.

MG: I should mention, you know, I ran into a listener who said that the sound of the cows freaked her animals out, that the cat got very low to the floor and the dog that was listening to the radio as well was looking around the house for the cows.

LIZ HOATH: Well, fair enough. I mean, those cows were pretty loud and ran all the way through the interview because we were standing right next to them when we were talking to John on the banks of the river there. And I actually wanted to touch base with him yesterday just to see how he was doing in the most recent atmospheric river that's coming through. And he says that the river did come back up again pretty significantly on the weekend, but it didn't breach in the way that it had the week before. He says the animals are still safe. They're still oblivious to it. And he says he's more worried about the people around Merritt. He uses the word fragile to describe how they're doing. His land is all still intact, and in fact, he says, there's a bit of a bright side here because when the water receded, they actually got hundreds of cubic metres of new soil sediment put on the lowland.

MG: Here's a bit of what John said last week when we spoke with him.

SOUNDCLIP

I'll just take a little poke at governance here, but we spend a lot of time listening to people talking about trying to get our temperature down by 1.5 degrees, but we don't hear anybody talking about adaptation. And for us living on the ground here in this landscape and doing what we do and having this very long and enduring relationship with nature, we really recognise that the plan now has to be adapting to the climate that's already showed up and now is the time to start building things that are going to last and are going to protect the natural environment that we already have.

MG: Teally thoughtful comments there from John Anderson and that hit a nerve with many people. Leslie Hauck writes from Nova Scotia The farmers were intelligent, articulate, thoughtful and inspiring not only in their stamina, but in the resourceful ways to deal with how to keep their livelihood in the face of climate change. Provincial and federal governments need to stop believing they have the answers like dam building, etc. and learn from the people who witness what's changing and have years of experience thinking and planning for how to ameliorate the possible damage ahead.

LIZ HOATH: And Marilyn Barlow writes from Tisdale, Saskatchewan. Climate change catastrophe is here now, and our governments need adaptation plans now. Your coverage revealed the inability of bureaucrats to respond and that individual people have the ability to do this. I hope some government officials are thoughtfully considering the adaptations needed.

MG: One of the things that we saw on Jon's farm was the adaptations that he's made to create space for the river, to spread out and lose some of its force before it floods the land. Heather Mathers writes from Cumberland, British Columbia. Raising dykes and hard scraping along waterways will not ensure flood damage in the future. Water has to have somewhere to go. Restoring riparian areas and not building in flood plains allows high water levels to recede without as much damage and could also store water for extreme summer drought.

LIZ HOATH: Finally, this note from Katie McPherson, who's writing from Whitehorse, Yukon. As a career emergency manager and former chief resilience officer for the city of Vancouver, I am saddened and frustrated, but not surprised by the inevitable events unfolding in B.C.. This morning, one of your guests lamented the lack of public information on risk and the lack of government action. These are mutual reinforcing issues without information. The public doesn't pressure the government to act, however. In this case, there have been numerous reports on flood risks and many are publicly available, not to mention almost daily reports on the implications of climate change for extreme weather severity and frequency. There is responsibility for all of us to seek out this information and demand action. We, the public, must overcome our apathy and disbelief that crisis can affect us, and government leaders must stop thinking of these issues as hypothetical and too far off to be worthy of consideration. The one thing we know is that response is always insufficient while mitigation always pays off. We desperately need to shift our mindset from crisis response to resilience.

MG: Liz Hoath is a senior producer here at The Current List. Great to get out on the road with you and tell these stories firsthand. Thank you very much.

LIZ HOATH: Thank you, Matt.

MG: You can contact us about anything you hear on this programme. Get in touch. We read every single thing that you send us, and some of those letters end up on the radio. Email us The Current at CBC.ca. You can tweet us at The Current CBC or go to the website CBC.ca slash The Current and click on. The contact link that is The Current for this Wednesday, it's the 1st of December. How did that happen? Coming up next on CBC Radio One, it's Q time is kind of just a bit flat right now, and you're never entirely sure what day or month it is. Q up next on CBC Radio One. Robert Plant and Alison Krauss two unlikely singers working together. They have a brilliant new album out their first together in some 14 years, and you'll hear all about it when they speak with Tom coming up in just a moment on CBC Radio. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll see you tomorrow.

Wednesday 1 December, 2021 Full Transcript

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