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The Current Transcript for July 12, 2022

Host: Catherine Cullen

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

Mice and bugs. Like species, urine, everything. I can literally write a book and the experiences that Greg went through in the HMP.

CATHERINE CULLEN: Courtney Pike's brother, begged for better conditions as an inmate at Newfoundland's Her Majesty's Penitentiary. He ultimately took his own life. Conditions are so bad in the prison that some inmates are now getting reduced sentences. I'll speak with a longtime advocate pushing for changes at the correctional facility. That's in 30 minutes. And then.

SOUNDCLIP

It was so difficult to have that occur. You know, what do you do? This is supposed to be a holy man. He's supposed to be a Bible man.

CC: The abuse endured by the young boys living at one of the most notorious residential schools in B.C. That is the second instalment of the CBC podcast, Kuper Island, with host Duncan McCue. But we begin with the fragility of Canada's communications systems. I'm Catherine Cullen, sitting in for Matt Galloway. And this is The Current.

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No guarantee of public investigation into Rogers outage, despite calls from experts

Guests: Michael Geist , Richard Leblanc, Francois-Philippe Champagne

CC: The Nationwide Rogers outage that began on Friday cost more than just connectivity. Lives were placed in jeopardy.

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I had an older aunt end up dying on Friday as a result of a brain aneurysm that happened in public. My father was with her and they weren't able to call for help. They head to the bank and the bank. They didn't have telephone service people on the street, they, no one on the street had available cell service. So my father was running around trying to find someone to call 911.

CC: That's Shane Eby from Hamilton, Ontario. Emergency services were eventually reached, but his aunt did pass away. The outage has put a spotlight on the role telecommunications giants play in our day to day lives. And it has some wondering if this could be a wake up call for regulators in Ottawa. Now we're going to speak to the minister in charge in a moment. But first, to help us get the lay of the land to understand what Canada needs to do. We've reached Michael Geist. He is a law professor at the University of Ottawa, where he holds the Canada research chair in Internet and e-commerce law. And Richard Leblanc is a professor of governance, law and ethics at York University in Toronto. Good morning to you both.

GUESTS: Hi.

CC: Michael, I'm going to start with you. I mean, we heard that story there from Shane. I also spoke with a doctor whose hospital couldn't access some health records or reach staff during the outage. What should this teach us about the importance that we need to put on protecting these networks?

MICHAEL GEIST: Well, I think there's lessons for everyone. There's lessons, obviously, for the users, their payment systems, emergency services, that putting your putting yourself in a with a single provider carries with it some significant risk. And of course, the same is true for individuals. If we have our broadband services and our wireless services, all with a single carrier that comes with risk. But I think the lesson as well is that this issue, this area has been neglected for, frankly, for too long by both the government and the CRTC that haven't shown a real willingness to take on these companies. And it's left a marketplace that isn't as competitive as many other markets. So consumers pay high prices that's heavily dependent on individual carriers with leadership. For example, even at the CRTC, where we really worry about an emphasis, let's say, on cultural issues, when job one has to be ensuring that we have reliable, affordable, resilient networks.

CC: Richard, Michael talks about neglect. The idea that 12 million people and that is the latest number could be without service suddenly because of what was ultimately described by Rogers as a maintenance update. I mean, should we be surprised by that? You know, this are you you follow it more closely than the average Canadian. This came as a shock to a lot of people. Was it a shock to you?

RICHARD LEBLANC: It wasn't. It wasn't. We've had two strikes now by Rogers, and I thought it might have been a Russian threat actors and a cybersecurity risk demanding bitcoin payment, which I've been through. And I think what the what the threat actors have know now is that you can attack a telecom company. So I think it is time for bold Canadian federal leadership. I think Mr. Trudeau should speak to this issue. He has yet to do so. There was a closed door meeting yesterday between the minister and the telco companies, and there was a three point plan that the minister requested within 60 days. I don't think that's adequate. This three point plan presupposes another outage. I think there needs to be a public enquiry as to the root cause of the outage where the telco executives are asked questions by elected politicians. And I think lastly, there needs to be a rethinking of a public mandate. We have crown corporations, hundreds of of federal and provincial crown corporations. And when you look at the 911 issues and the cost of a landline, I think there should be a public presence in the telecom market and that may be a separate from Federal Crown Corporation, but I think it's about time. I think what this has showed us is that we really don't want to wait for a third occurrence. And I think a third occurrence will occur without robust regulation. And my sense of the CRTC and Industry Canada is that the regulation is not robust. It's certainly not as robust as it is for financial services. So there's an opportunity here.

CC: You said a lot of important things there that I want to unpack. But I just want you to clarify one thing you said at the beginning about the prospect of a cyber attack. Do you think the fact that this this happened, it's made international news, does that make Canada more vulnerable?

RICHARD LEBLANC: I think Russian threat actors and these are paid by the Putin government and we're now supplying Ukraine in the war with Russia. They their playbook is constantly updated. And I think that they they their playbook has included further attacks on the three telecoms as a result of what happened over the weekend. I think the learning opportunity for the threat actors was exactly what happened over the weekend.

CC: Yeah. So the hope, I guess is that Canada is doing some learning at the same time and upping our game. Michael, I'll bring you back in here because I really want to dig down in. Who what happened at this meeting or what we know about what happened with this meeting with Industry Minister Francois-Philippe Champagne, who is going to be on the programme in a moment. And these telecom companies, he came out of the meeting, the minister did, and said, listen, I've given the companies 60 days, rather, to come up with a plan to deal with things like emergency roaming. Mutual assistance during outages. And a better protocol to inform the public when this happens. How far would something like that go towards addressing the issues that were raised here, Michael?

MICHAEL GEIST: Well, I think it's a good start, but it's really just a start. So it might have meant that some of the people who were affected directly last week would would have would have been able to get service at some point in time. And hopefully it would have meant that we'd have far better communications from the company, which was sorely lacking. There was so much uncertainty about what was happening, how long it would take, and so they need to do better there. But it's just a first step. I think we do need investigations that include the CRTC, which is likely to be announced today. But I think I think parliament, with the House of Commons committee, needs to get involved as well, looking at a broader range of issues, including the payment systems and including the consumer dimension. One of the other problems we have here is that from a consumer compensation perspective, Rogers is talking about what I suspect is just a relatively nominal amount to say, well, listen, you were out for a day, so we'll pay you the cost of a day when your flight is delayed by 4 hours or more. You're entitled to hundreds of dollars.

CC: I believe it will be two days. I think somebody estimated it's going to be about $5.50.

MICHAEL GEIST: I mean, and that's just chump change to compared to the real costs that took place. And so, you know, I don't think the airline sector is anybody's idea right now of a model. But the approach that we have from a regulatory perspective in terms of paying real compensation that accounts for the harm and inconvenience is an approach that we have. And we need transparency associated with those outages so that we can better understand when they take place. So there's a lot that can take place in the short term. And in the longer term, we need to be addressing the competition concerns. We need to be, again, rethinking this Rogers Shaw merger. Frankly, a country serious about competition wouldn't be entertaining this possibility. And when there's a new chair of the CRTC announced in a couple of months, the real signal from the government as to whether they take this seriously or not is whether or not it's someone who's coming from a telecom background that's prepared to roll up their sleeves and address these issues.

CC: Richard, I want to ask you, we're going to dig down into competition in just a sec, but I just have one more question about this plan that the minister is putting forward. The idea that other companies, other big telcos would sort of swoop in and come to the aid of one company if something like this were to happen again. Do you have any sense of how feasible that is? Like we were talking about 12 million people on Friday. And I wonder, given that there's such concentration, could other big telecoms suddenly- just would that work? Millions of people suddenly jumping on to two other networks to try to fix this?

RICHARD LEBLANC: Not without great difficulty. I think the barriers to entry with bundled services are very significant for the average Canadian customer, and that's because the three telcos have structured it that way. So I think you do need, if you're going to have a resilient, redundant plan to go from Rogers to Bell. I mean, just this morning I purchased up an item on Amazon for $850. So if something goes wrong with Rogers, I can fall back to Bell. I mean.

CC: That's $850.

RICHARD LEBLANC: And that's sort of self-help. But what we need is something that is seamless. And what we've seen from the 911 is that it's not seamless and it even guarantees by the telcos that 911 will work in an emergency doesn't work. So I view with great scepticism this three point plan by the minister that it will be seamless for the average Canadian and it also presupposes you're going to have future outages. I think the issue here for the minister is to identify the root cause. And my experience with root causes, it's almost always a lack of internal controls, design or implementation. So I think maintenance updates should and should not result in paralysis to 12 million Canadians. So I think the minister needs, as Michael has said, to roll up his shirtsleeves and demonstrate bold leadership once and for all in this sector. There's a certain passivity by Canadian regulators and politicians. And I don't get it. I don't I don't get why this sector has has has such passive regulation compared to other sectors, including financial services in Canada.

CC: Michael, I should say the minister is listening in to all of this and we're going to get his take on it in a minute. But you talked about the importance of concentration that that being part of the problem here. How would you assess how this government has dealt with that issue up to this point? Because I know the minister has been saying publicly it's a priority. We know it's, in fact, in his mandate letter to try to address some of the structural issues around concentration. How are they doing? How effectively can they claim to be dealing with this issue?

MICHAEL GEIST: Candidly, it's been really discouraging. You know, the that the there have been a number of opportunities to inject new kinds of competition service based competition, MVNOs Mobile virtual network operators that might sit alongside from a service perspective some of the facilities based providers like a Rogers or a Bell. We've seen the CRTC hesitant to move in that direction, and there's a perception CRTC chair's been very cosy with some of the big providers, and we haven't seen the government willing to step in and take a stand on some of those issues. And so I don't think we've seen it as a priority. The position that Canada has role relative to other countries remains roughly the same as one of the most expensive markets. And so I think, as is rightly noted, the self-help that most consumers engage in is the same kind of thing, mistakenly, that the payment system did, which is to put all your eggs in a single, say, Rogers basket. And, you know, that might help with the cost a little bit because there's the perception of some discounts if you buy enough services or you get enough family members involved. But as we learnt last week, it comes at a significant cost and Canadians shouldn't have to choose. We should have a market that is sufficiently competitive, competitive in the same comparison to other countries such that you can you have more choice and you can make some of those choices and do so in an affordable manner. And I don't think we're there yet. And I think that we've we haven't seen the government take it and take this as seriously as it needs to. And we certainly haven't seen the CRTC take a position where it puts consumers at the centre of the communications system. Instead, it seems to be all about the big three.

CC: Richard, what would you ask the minister.

RICHARD LEBLANC: To have transparent hearings and go to the root cause of what happened and providing an assurance to Canadians that it will not happen again. That's the issue.

CC: Okay. Well, we're going to put all that to the minister in a moment. I thank you both for your time.

RICHARD LEBLANC: My pleasure.

CC: Michael Geist is a law professor at the University of Ottawa, where he holds the Canada research chair in Internet and e-commerce law. And Richard Leblanc is a professor of governance, law and ethics at York University. Francois-Philippe Champagne is Canada's minister of Innovation, Science and Industry. And as we said, he's been listening to all of this. Good morning, Minister. How are you?

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: Good morning. What a pleasure to be with you this morning. And listening. You know, a lot of interesting talk.

CC: Yes. Well, let's hear it.

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: Happy to comment. It's always nice to hear before going into an interview. So so thanks for having me this morning and joining and following the meeting that lasted more than an hour yesterday. So hopefully I can provide Canadians a bit more colour on that.

CC: Sure. Well, listen, there were quite a few criticisms thrown your way, and I'm sure you want to address all of them. So let's start with this idea that the getting to the root cause of it needs to be done more transparently. You were out yesterday saying that there's going to be a CRTC enquiry. In fact, the CRTC was quite reticent to confirm that. But the idea that this needs to be done publicly. Do you are you onside with that?

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: Well, listen, first of all, I agree with Richard that we need an enquiry, an investigation, I would call it, by the CRTC, because you need to go to the root cause. I fully agree with that because it's a bit like in the near disaster type of investigation. You need to understand really what happened when.

CC: You say enquiry. Minister, just so I understand, you are saying that you expect the CRTC to hold a public enquiry.

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: Well, I'm not I'm not saying that they will do their investigation. So the CRTC as a mechanism to investigate these things. And they will do that.

But it won't be public.

Well, I mean, there could be a committee hearing of parliament, but but, you know, what you're talking about now is experts digging in to the core of the system, even with the vendors, because what happened over the last few days involving two national experts. So people understand the scope of what we were, you know, Rogers was dealing with was in the core of the system. So it included vendors, their experts from around the world. But let me just if I can step back for a second. So the meeting first, I expressed the frustration of more than 12 million Canadians who were subject to an unacceptable outage, also expressed their frustrations of hundreds of thousands of small and medium sized businesses, which could not affect, you know, electronic payments. I expressed the frustration of of the emergency provider, because we know that 911 was not functional in a number of cities in Canada. So I said, this is unacceptable. Full stop. Now, once you do that, you say, what can we do? And that's why I would. I hear the criticism. But to say Canada's not proactive, I would say, listen, we're implementing the three steps that I've said I demand--

CC: But it is post facto, sir, like I take your point, but you can't possibly call it proactive if it's happening after the outage.

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: You know, let me just say what I'm saying. It's proactive, is that the United States Federal Communications Commission published something similar on the 6th of July. So to say proactive. I mean, what we said yesterday is that first there needs to be mutual assistance and that there needs to be a very specific protocol. There needs to be emergency room. The U.S. did that just a few days ago. And in addition to that, we went further and say we need to have a protocol on communication, with the public and the authorities because communication was one thing. The first thing to step back after. And I said, what happened is completely unacceptable. And I hold Rogers to account on that. That's why we said we have to take immediate steps. Yes, that's what we're going to do. But we need to do much, much more.

CC: Here's what I want to understand about this, the 60 days. You say they have to have an agreement in 60 days. You heard our experts saying the experts that we spoke to saying this is this is going to happen again. It's very likely this could happen again. So in 60 days, do they just need to have something written down on a piece of paper? Or are you saying that within 60 days these you expect these steps to be in place? Like help us understand concretely what's going to happen here.

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: So they will have an agreement. For example, when you say - and let's be clear, Catherine, you know, you can deal with every possibilities in the sense it's a bit like with COVID 19, we were hit with COVID 19. What's going to be the type of the next pandemic and when no one can really predict. But what we can choose is to better prepared. And that's really you know, I was the minister at the time. This is kind of the same framework that I'm saying. We wanted to have the families of vaccines in can. That's why we brought them back. Same thing there are. We say, listen, as an initial step, you know, 72 hours after the interruption, we say, listen, we want you to take these three steps which are very specific and in agreement with within 60 days. And like I said, this is similar to what the U.S. did just a few days ago. But we're going much beyond.

CC: But will this change be in place in 60 days, sir?

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: What I would say the agreement will be there. And that's why they have to have this system in place, because let's be, if we talk some people listening, some mutual assistance. When I called the CEO Rogers when I was in Tokyo, when this happened on Friday and Thursday, depending on the time zone, the first thing that I said is that obviously what's going on? How can we help? The other thing I call the CEO of Tellus and Bill and everyone was willing to help, both with technicians and potentially with additional capacity. That needs to be codified. So, yes, there is informal assistance, but that's not good enough. I said, you need to do better. You need to codify. Emergency rooms would allow the systems when it can to switch from one to the other so that if people were with Rogers and they could go to Bell, that we do that. And the protocol around communication, let's be honest, it should have been so much better. And I said that to the CEO of Rogers.

CC: I think that's widely agreed. Minister, let's talk about concentration, because we only have 2 minutes left with you there. I'm sure you heard, I believe it was Michael Geist said that a country who takes these concentration issues seriously would not be entertaining the prospect of a Rogers Shaw merger. I know you have said you're not going to allow the wholesale transfer of all of these licences, but can you realistically can you allow any further concentration in the market in light of what we've seen? Like how can you be saying yes to this deal, even if it's only pieces?

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: I mean, I'm not saying yes.

CC: Yes, no, no. But I'm asking, how could you?

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: I'm the regulator. So when they fall, we will take a decision, but they need to fall first. But what I'm saying is that, listen, I have been pretty clear and I hope it was well understood that I will not allow the wholesale transfer of licences from Shaw to Rogers. And I also said to them that obviously what happened yesterday is going to be, is in everyone's mind we need more competition, we need more affordability. I said that to them yesterday, but you would appreciate so.

CC: How are we going to get there, sir?

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: Focus with resiliency.

CC: Yes.

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: We need to foster competition. The guidelines that I have, you should recently go in that it revoke the previous policy where it was not clear. I made very clear to the CRTC and everyone involved in the sector that affordability and competition are the two cornerstones of what they need to consider when they take a decision. That's a new policy that I issued a few weeks ago that's going to go in the direction of helping consumers. Yesterday, what I was voicing is the frustration of millions of Canadians. And I can tell you all of these CEOs were very much in listening mode. This was no time to to challenge me on what we wanted to implement. And they said, yes, Minister, we will do so and more to come.

CC: Can you commit then to saying that we need more than three major telecom carriers? Well, not just saying it, I guess, Minister, because that's the thing. I appreciate that you're saying this, but seven years into your government and we still have this level of concentration.

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: Well, I'd like more people to come in the sector clearly as the government you regulate. But, you know, if you ask me what I welcome and would like to see more people in the telco telecom sector in Canada. Sure. And I'm happy to to see who can come in this sector and increase competition. That's what Canadians want. And affordability is top of mind. That's usually what I talk to when I talk to the CEOs of the telcos. But you would appreciate that yesterday we had to deal with an immediate situation, take immediate initial step. I think Michael said it well. Those are just initial steps. The logical thing to do now is to do a full investigation with recommendation and make sure that we do more to have resiliency and more choice for Canadians in our telecom market.

CC: We are out of time, Minister. We're going to have to leave it there. I thank you very much.

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: Always a pleasure.

CC: Nice talking to you, Minister. Take care.

FRANCOIS-PHILIPPE CHAMPAGNE: Always a pleasure class.

CC: Philip Champagne is Canada's Minister of Industry. Well, the CBC News is next then.

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I mean, you can't even turn lights off. People are under fluorescent light, 24/7. You can't put a social animal in a box with lights on 24 seven and expect anything good to come of it.

CC: Advocates have long called for reform in one of Newfoundland's oldest and largest prisons. We'll speak to an advocate coming up next. I'm Catherine Cullen. This is The Current.

Sister of man who died while incarcerated wants better conditions at Newfoundland prison

Guests: Courtney Pike, Cindy Murphy

CC: Hello, I'm Catherine Cullen and you're listening to The Current.

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CC: Still to come, the CBC podcast Kuper Island. In today's episode, host Duncan McCue speaks with two brothers who recount the horrors they experienced at Cooper Island Residential School in B.C. But first, the appalling conditions at Newfoundland's most notorious prison.

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CC: Rat infestations, mould in the walls, inedible food and inadequate health care. Inmates at Her Majesty's Penitentiary in St John's have long complained about these conditions. Last week, a provincial judge agreed it was so bad they cut an inmate sentence by six months, saying the prison conditions were intolerable. Her Majesty's Penitentiary is the biggest and oldest prison in Newfoundland and Labrador. It dates back to the Victorian era opening in the 1850s and has become known for its crumbling infrastructure. Three years ago the province said it would build a new facility, but little has come of that promise. Courtney Pike's Brother Greg was serving time at the penitentiary. He died by suicide last year while incarcerated. And a warning. The following conversation deals with graphic accounts of the prison's conditions and of suicide. Courtney joins me from Saint John's. Hello.

COURTNEY PIKE: Hi. How are you?

CC: I'm really grateful that you're taking the time to talk to us today. I'm so sorry for your loss. Can you tell us a bit about Greg and what he was like?

COURTNEY PIKE: Sure. Gregory was the first grandchild born into a big, loving and sporting family. He would love to help his grandfather and his uncles in the woods, cutting board and cutting down the Christmas trees. In the summer, he would pick berries with his grandmother and his mother. He would just always like to help. And over the years he would be taking stray cats and dogs home like he was just the type of child that he loved animals and he wanted to keep them all. But of course he couldn't. But as time went on, Gregory did suffer with addiction, but he did manage to get legs and then course trenching and excavating. Of course, he worked out bricklayer in the real thing, but sadly he did spend some time in prison.

CC: When did your brother first indicate to you that there were problems at the prison?

COURTNEY PIKE: We have always known that there are things that were happening because he would call home a lot. And I asked my mom to contact the citizen's rep about ongoing issues that were going on with him.

CC: Like what?

COURTNEY PIKE: Gregory broke out in rashes, and he would be full of, like, scars, and, like, they had a bedbug infestation in there. He contracted MRSA because it was so dirty.

CC: Yeah. Yeah.

COURTNEY PIKE: Yeah. He was so sick. He was losing weight. His food was intolerable. My mom would always have to send in money for him to her canteen so he can eat like noodles and oatmeal. And just. It was just really bad.

CC: You're a nurse. What was it like? I mean, you must have. Had that additional layer of understanding about a person's health and then to hear your brother describing these conditions, what was that like for you?

COURTNEY PIKE: Well, it really concerned me when he had a serious wound to the skull that required Staples to be held together. He was supposed to have that wound cleansed and dressing changed every day by a nurse, and he was not seen for eight days and he was starting to have a fever. It was draining and oozing. There were staples being let go and Day 12, he still was not seen to. I had to call in myself and express my concerns that he had an infection and they literally had to the brightest scalp from like. Necrotic flesh, and it took three weeks of antibiotics to clear up his infection. He still he had such a big, nasty scar on the top of his head, like probably the size of a half year comment. This was during the COVID outbreak. He should have been isolated for risk of infection in a cell. But he was forced to sleep on the floor in a cell with two other men inches from the toilet with nothing covering his skills. Like my brother talks about that in his own words and letters. I mean, that's just. It's crazy, right?

CC: When you reached out for help in this instance and presumably in other instances too, what was the response like?

COURTNEY PIKE: They would not really say much to myself or my mother if if we did call in. They would just basically be like, okay, you know, and then it would be taken care of because he did get sent to the hospital. But it should not take a family member to call in expressing concern for like. Something as serious as that wound dressing, you know?

CC: He also, as you said earlier, had struggles with mental health and addiction. I'm wondering what kind of support was he getting for those issues?

COURTNEY PIKE: Gregory had PTSD and ADHD. I believe he spoke to a counsellor in there sometimes, and we grew up in a really religious family. And Gregory would go to the chaplain and clergy to speak for his mental health. He always slept with a cross like around his neck. I still have it, actually, and he prayed a lot. So I honestly got to say, he he relied on spiritual so really a lot for his mental health. We needed somebody to talk to a long term courageous.

CC: How did you see him change during his time at the penitentiary?

COURTNEY PIKE: I can't even express the pain it is to see somebody you love so much. Go down that road. It's like physically and mentally. 17. I feel helpless, like I'm his little sister and I feel like I failed him because I couldn't do enough for him. And just knowing how much pain he was in while he was incarcerated and to the point where he had to take his own life, that there's not there's no words to describe. That pain.

CC: I'm so sorry. You obviously, as you say, you would raise issues as they came up and you were trying to help him. It sounds like as best you could.

COURTNEY PIKE: Oh, my God. Yes. We've we literally did everything as a family possible for Gregory. He was incarcerated for a breach of conditions because he relax. I mean, he's he's a. A drug addict. And they incarcerated him, instead of rehabilitation. And we finally got him accepted into a five-week treatment programme, and he was denied the bail to do it — and he committed suicide two days later. But yet they're offering people time off their sentences for intolerable conditions in the HMP, but yet my brother is passed away and he could not get released to start a treatment programme. Like, it don't make sense.

CC: He wrote a letter that he hoped to bring to the CBC, trying to address the conditions, draw attention to the conditions at the penitentiary. Is that right?

COURTNEY PIKE: Yeah. He actually wrote a letter seven months before he died. Watching this pod with the know how bad it is that they were being treated. How how the conditions were in there. Gregory used to say it was so hot in there they could barely breathe. Just pacing the hall, like he said, he literally couldn't shut his mind off.

CC: Would you be comfortable reading part of that letter to us?

COURTNEY PIKE: Greg We actually wrote a lot, but there is a little bit his introduction. CBC News N.L, please help get this information and a whole lot of more of my years of pure torture and neglect of the necessities of life as soon as possible before somebody else gets killed or another life is taken at the hands of future MP and the customer in this place. Since I've been here, I had my right. I said no. Now I'm blind. And the lie I had every right there is stripped from me, including my dignity as a grown man. And it hurts.

CC: What he said there about he lost his eye.

COURTNEY PIKE: Yes. When Gregory first got incarcerated, he was walking back from recreation and got stabbed like blindsided by another inmate. It took three days of Greg not coming out of his cell for meal for somebody to finally check on him and realise that his eye was punctured. They sent him to the hospital. And he has 37 stitches. Put into his eye and he went blind. He lost complete vision at 18 years old and he was right eye. Then he was prescribed Percocet. And that's what Sam Gregory's opiate addiction.

CC: You say he took his own life? What has the prison said? What is their response been like since that moment?

COURTNEY PIKE: They knew that he was suicidal when he when he first got incarcerated, of course, because he relaxed. He tried to kill himself within an hour of being incarcerated. And they put him on suicide watch down in segregation known as the hole. After my mom called begging them, she begged them to take him to the water first begged him to be put on suicide watch and he was cut back open, arrange a couple of days later. And he still ended up. Killing himself. But he should have been closely monitored, giving his mental state like me when I went and seen my brother into the ICU. He had fresh and old wounds on both of her. But it was physical, but he was like, Honey, I just don't understand. Like, if my brother could still be with me and even got hurt hugging I have to earn in front of me. And I was picture okay smiling at me because I know that he wouldn't want me to talk about it because I know he wanted to. So bad thing, even when he was incarcerated, he would ask my mom or he would be writing letters, not even just for himself, but for other inmates, because like he didn't, he was being treated unfairly and he knew other people were too. That was the type of person he was. He just wanted to help others as well. Mhm.

CC: You're trying to help him. You're trying to help him in the way that you can now by talking to us.

COURTNEY PIKE: I mean. If this raises awareness and could potentially help somebody else, then by all means, I'll advocate for the rest of my life. If I got to. I don't want Gregory to be a statistic. I'll get into Hate Me peace. I want his story to be a reminder, you know? Mm hmm. People do fall through the cracks and there is a flood system and people do need help. I can't stress the importance of what I would love to see for in terms of rehabilitation instead of incarceration and conditions like my brother did not need jail, he should still be here.

CC: So, Courtney, let's talk about that. What are the most important changes you want to see?

COURTNEY PIKE: It is estimated that 77 to 80% of the Haitian inmates have mental health or substance abuse issues. So why don't they shrink the size of the facility and increase the size of a rehabilitation centre? Why are these ongoing issues happening over and over? It's almost like a horror film. It is not even just about conditions in the death and the suffering that's going on behind the walls. I mean, these are human beings. I would just really like to see more programmes or more help. What needs to be done for each individual. People can be rehabilitated. No, I mean, these issues are going to carry on because a new prison, if it's not changed, the government really needs to take action, accountability and responsibility. So a lot has been going on.

CC: Courtney. This is obviously taken an incredible toll on your family. Thank you for taking the time to speak to us today.

COURTNEY PIKE: Thank you.

CC: Courtney Pike's brother, Gregory Pike, died by suicide while incarcerated in Her Majesty's Penitentiary in Saint John's. John Hogan, Newfoundland and Labrador's justice minister, declined our request for an interview. The ministry sent a statement which reads in part The Department of Justice and Public Safety takes the responsibility of having inmates in our care very seriously. There are well-known infrastructure issues that present a challenge government is working on. The procurement of the new correctional facility and construction of the new facility is anticipated to start in spring 2023 and will take approximately three years to complete. There is a range of programmes and services that inmates may avail of, including rehabilitative programmes, pastoral care, school and educational services, health care and addiction services. Well, some of Greg Gregory Pike's experiences at Her Majesty's Penitentiary in St John's are not uncommon. Advocates have long called for the overhaul of the facility. Cindy Murphy is the executive director of the John Howard Society of Newfoundland and Labrador. In the interests of transparency, I have a family member who works for the John Howard Society of Ontario. She does not work, has not worked on this issue. Cindy, good morning.

CINDY MURPHY: Good morning.

CC: I mean, I think we just have to start by acknowledging that what a heartbreaking story Courtney just told us is difficult to listen to. In that letter, Gregory described the conditions as pure torture and neglect. How familiar is Gregory story to you?

CINDY MURPHY: All too familiar, unfortunately. I just want to say, though, how incredibly moved I was by Courtney, you know, taking the time to talk about her brother's experiences. We encourage. There's no question about it. Yeah, very powerful. But yes, unfortunately, we hear it too all too often. You know, there's been a number of people who died by suicide over the last number of years. It's well recorded. There's been several reports talking about the conditions of ministry at Her Majesty's Penitentiary, and unfortunately, it continues to this day.

CC: Obviously, one indication of that. CBC News in Newfoundland Labrador reporting last week that the province's Supreme Court took six months off an inmate sentence due to, quote, harsh conditions experienced at the prison. I mean, obviously, Gregory Story gives us a sense of that. But what are these harsh conditions more globally?

CINDY MURPHY: We all know about the ageing infrastructure. I mean, that prison should have been replaced many, many years ago. There's no question about that. So, you know, any talk about a new facility is certainly welcome. I think that's a given. But besides that, there's there's so many things that are happening at Her Majesty's Penitentiary that are probably happening many provincial correctional centres across the country. But it's you know, it's the lack of cleanliness. It's the shortage of staff. It's, you know, being confined in their cells around the range for, you know, for extended periods of time. It's, you know, the lack of mental health professionals available to them on a regular basis. And as Courtney mentioned, there's a very high incidence of people who have mental health and addiction who are incarcerated. You know, we are talking even in provincial institutions. It's hard to get the numbers exactly what that looks like. But we know somewhere in the range of 70 to 80% have an identified substance abuse and or mental health disorder. So these numbers are huge. So you you have a high concentration of people have very complex needs in one area. And without the appropriate interventions, then these types of things are going to happen. And unfortunately, there's got to be more people are going to lose their life.

CC: I mean, you talk about the fact that there are problematic conditions sort of elsewhere in the penitentiary system. But but surely, given the story we just heard, this is a particularly egregious instance, given the age of the facility and whatnot.

CINDY MURPHY: No question. No question. I certainly didn't mean to minimise that. It is it's you know, it's infested with rodents. It's not clean. The the air quality is horrendous. You know, I talked to one of the staff last week who talked about spending the majority of her time because of the hot weather and distributing popsicles and bottled water because the air conditioning was down. I mean, you know, these are really inhumane conditions.

CC: How long has it been this bad?

CINDY MURPHY: Well, you know, off and on. And Colbert, of course, was a particularly difficult time over and above what is normally is just because while they did reduce the number of people who were incarcerated, they were still people were being confined to their units for extended periods of time for the safety programmes were not operating because for obvious reasons we couldn't get in to do that because John Howard does deliver some programmes within the institution. But there's other community groups too as well. And so those weren't happening on a regular basis and it was it's particularly difficult. And one of the biggest struggles that we've seen over the last number of years is the staff shortages. They're causing profound problems within the institution. So the correctional officers, there's not enough of them. And as a result of that, what happens is because they're not able to supervise programmes and various things, things are getting interrupted all the time. You know, there's no library services. People aren't getting outside for fresh air on a regular basis because there's no staff to monitor them. You know, we've been called periodically in the last week, our staff were called to say, you can't come in because there's no staff to deliver the substance abuse programme that night. So these things are happening quite, quite often and quite regularly and have been happening for several years. And I don't hear of any, you know, not hearing what the efforts are of the Department of Justice and Public Safety to improve those conditions. Where are they recruiting and retention? You know, mechanisms to try and improve conditions? I'm not seeing it.

CC: I want to ask you about the fact that the facility is being replaced, although that is still years away. Why is it taking so long?

CINDY MURPHY: Good question. I don't know. We're not certainly privy to that, although we've been invited to a consultation later this week to talk about what we see are important mechanisms that need to be built in to a new facility.

CC: Well, let me ask you I'm sorry to interrupt, but we only have a few minutes left. Let me ask you then about what Courtney Pike just said there, that she doesn't actually believe that even in a new facility, these problems will get better. Are you hopeful about the new facility or do you share her scepticism?

CINDY MURPHY: Well, to be honest, I think I am sceptical. I think a new person is absolutely needed. But, you know, I always say that the only thing that's going to change is the physical facility. If we don't change the culture and the existing problems that are happening at HMV, we're just going to move them into the new facility. And so while we might have more space, you know, presumably if that's if that's the plan for the new prison, but, you know, all these cultural issues, all of these issues that are plaguing the institution are going to go with them. Nothing will have changed.

CC: So you have this consultation coming up with justice and public safety. What is the the most important thing that you want to communicate to them?

CINDY MURPHY: Adequate services, adequate and timely services to provide to the to the inmates who to who they they have a they have a a responsibility to every inmate that they incarcerate. They take away their freedom. And so ultimately, they are responsible for their basic human rights. And not everybody wants to hear that. I think, you know, people do the crime. They do the time. But the inmates are are you willing they're somebody's child or somebody's brother, father, mother, sister. And they deserve to be treated with basic human rights and respect. And I think that's the piece that somehow gets lost, that somehow it's they're not important that. They're kind of a throwaway population. They're behind closed doors and they get what they deserve. Well, most of these folks are coming back to us in the community, and they're going to live next door to you and me. And we want them to be better coming out than when they went in.

CC: Would you say that the situation we're seeing in the penitentiary is is a consequence of what you just talked about, about the fact that a lot of people just say throw them away?

CINDY MURPHY: Well, the public perception about that, I mean, you know, if you follow up on any of the articles in the paper, we're online and you look at some of the comments and it's really a lack of understanding. And the only time it seems to me that that understanding is there is that when you hear from a family member like Courtney and the terrible pain that they've had to endure as a result, and then it makes sense to some people. But no, it's kind of a there's an expectation that if you do the crime, you do the time. And unfortunately, that's not the way it should be. People are sentenced to a loss of freedom. That's the punishment. But they shouldn't be punished every day while they're incarcerated.

CC: Okay. Well, thank you for taking the time to to speak to us about what's obviously a very troubling story. Cindy Murphy, thank you.

CINDY MURPHY: Thank you for having me.

CC: Cindy Murphy is the executive director of the John Howard Society of Newfoundland and Labrador. Coming up after your regional update.

SOUNDCLIP

We all knew every night here was who was going to be a sexual predator. He was going to come and look for somebody.

CC: The second episode of the CBC podcast, Kuper Island host Duncan McCue, brings us the stories of two young brothers who survived the residential school. James and Tony Charlie. I'm Catherine Cullen, and you're listening to The Current.

Episode two of CBC podcast Kuper Island

CC: I'm Catherine Cullen and you're listening to The Current. This week we're bringing you the CBC podcast, Kuper Island. It tells the stories of four students who attended one of Canada's most notorious residential schools. Here's host Duncan McCue with episode two and a warning. This podcast deals with stories of graphic descriptions of abuse in residential school. Please take care while listening.

SOUNDCLIP

DUNCAN MCCUE: It was a warm day in June 1966. Tony Charlie was 15 years old and he was heading to the gym at the Kuper Island Residential School to play basketball but something held him back.

TONY CHARLIE: I got to the door and I grabbed the door knob. And I was just overcome by hesitation. It almost seemed like there was something stopping me from going, opening the door. So I held the door and I let the door go. And I went back. And so that happened to me twice. I went to the gym and I got the door and I couldn't go in.

DUNCAN MCCUE: So he didn't go inside the gym that day. The next day they learnt a boy had hung himself there. At least that's what they were told.

TONY CHARLIE: It's just on the other side around.

DUNCAN MCCUE: This is where the gymnasium was.

TONY CHARLIE: No, it was straight here on the left.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Here on the left.

TONY CHARLIE: Yeah.

DUNCAN MCCUE: We're standing on the road in Pelican. Where that gym used to be is now an empty lot, close to a modest [unintelligible] house. More than 50 years later. James and Tony Charlie are telling me more about the boy. His name was Richard Thomas.

TONY CHARLIE: Richard was a very quiet guy, in a way. He wasn't down and dominant in sports who was no gifted athlete, but he had a very charismatic life.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Richard was on the verge of graduating from Kuper Island when he died.

TONY CHARLIE: The brothers told all the young guys in the residential school this young man's parents were going to separate it. And he said, This young man wrote a note in and put it inside a Bible of all things. And that sounds quite odd because, you know, I don't think we're all attached to the Bible as much as people would like to think. But anyway, he he was asking his parents to forgive him. He wanted them to stay together and he loved them. This is what I was told.

DUNCAN MCCUE: That's what the brothers told you.

TONY CHARLIE: Yes. They they told all the young people, all the young men, all the friends of the young man who took his life.

DUNCAN MCCUE: So that's disturbing enough. But here's where Tony story gets worse.

TONY CHARLIE: What occurred is some of the Catholic nuns and brothers took their children up there to view the body. You know, and that was a shocking part.

DUNCAN MCCUE: They took kids to see the body.

TONY CHARLIE: Yes. They had to go up and look at it. Yeah.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Why did they do that?

TONY CHARLIE: I don't know what the logic of that would be to show a child something unhealthy like that. It's really not my story, but I do hear it from others who have had that impact of view and that a.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Is it possible that nuns and priests took schoolchildren to view a dead body hanging in the gym? And why would a boy who was just days away from his graduation kill himself? But before we get to that, you'll need to understand what life was like on the boy's side of the school. I'm Duncan McCue, and this is Kuper Island. Episode Two: Nights on the Boys Side.

[Music]

DUNCAN MCCUE: One of the first things that happened when any child arrived at the school was they were given a number.

TONY CHARLIE: They said your number is 10. So that's what they said. All the other kids had all numbers said. And so that was something that we all identified with, with just our number. Sometimes it wasn't even their names. It was just the number.

DUNCAN MCCUE: The number was stitched on every piece of their clothing, and whenever they were assigned chores, clean the washrooms, mopped the floors, scrubbed the windows, they put their numbers on a big list on the wall. And then there was the praying.

TONY CHARLIE: Kneeling down, praying every morning, and then into the shower and go down to the rec room for five minutes and line up and pray to go into the dining room and get a dining room, sit down and pray to again to receive, we thank God for your meal and we're forever praying.

DUNCAN MCCUE: This religious and patriotic indoctrination was part of a system designed to change the children. Deputy Minister of Indian Affairs Duncan Campbell Scott said so in 1920 when he made residential schools compulsory. He said, quote, Our objective is to continue until there is not a single Indian in Canada that has not been absorbed into the body politic. And there is no Indian question and no Indian department. If there were no Indians, there'd be no treaty payments, no Indian reserves, no indigenous land rights. Residential schools weren't created to deliver a proper education. They were created to assimilate Indians and went hand in hand with other policies meant to steal land. And it was little kids sleeping in rows upon rows of bunk beds who paid the price.

[Music]

DUNCAN MCCUE: What was it like to to to have to sleep over at the school?

TONY CHARLIE: You mean sleeping or you mean sexually abused?

DUNCAN MCCUE: It's one of the most horrific aspects of Indian residential schools and one that took the longest to be revealed. They were rife with sexual predators. The abuse poisoned every aspect of school life, even stuff that was supposed to be fun. Okay. Explain the band to me. What's that mean, the band?

TONY CHARLIE: The band. The school band. The Drumming Five Men. They called it at the time. I had no no music abilities. So I initially started out with the flag bearer. They call it just carrying the flag. Carrying flag. And then from there, I went to the bass drum me and I was like one of the little guys, but I had this great big bass drum in front of me, strapped on to me.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Showing off the musical talents of indigenous children was a way to impress the general public with all the good works the church and government or bestowing upon the Indians. And the public responded enthusiastically when one of the young Kuper Island missionaries, senior boys supervisor Brian Defur hatched a bold plan to raise money to take Indian schoolchildren to perform in Expos 67.

TONY CHARLIE: He says while we're going to Montreal, he says, You want to come with us, be part of the band. So I said, okay.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Local newspapers lapped up the story. What I can't ignore as I explore these archives is how complicit the media was in manufacturing public support for residential schools. In one feature, the missionaries are portrayed as fighting an uphill battle in their efforts to educate children because, quote, As soon as a boy or girl returns to a home environment, they lose all ambition and initiative, reverting to the reserve to become drunks. Though the reporter does acknowledge there was, quote, a certain prison atmosphere to Kuper Island.

[Music]

DUNCAN MCCUE: I got the video of the band playing.

TONY CHARLIE: Wow.

DUNCAN MCCUE: So what would you like to see that?

TONY CHARLIE: Of course you might see my brother. Here's little brother. That's me with a drum.

DUNCAN MCCUE: That's you.

TONY CHARLIE: Big drum with the big one.

DUNCAN MCCUE: That's with the big drum.

TONY CHARLIE: Yeah.

DUNCAN MCCUE: The kids were a hit led by the charismatic Brian Defur the school raised more than $10,000. In July of 1967, the children, 34 of them, were flying across the country to a big national party.

TONY CHARLIE: We were on the big the big bus from the airport and they said, oh, we got to stop off at City Hall. And we we all got off at City Hall and we went in to Mayor Defur's office a his office and he was talking to us. I want to welcome you all to Montreal.

SOUNDCLIP

...Hold it to itself, to bring together the nations of all the continents in a place where there could be an exchange of ideas, a meeting of minds, mutual understanding, love and peace.

DUNCAN MCCUE: But I came across a very strange and revealing news story about the trip. A reporter interviewed Tony and said he was shy but excited, especially by seeing the Indians of Canada Pavilion, which had made him proud. This is the part that really jumped out at me, though, the reporter observes Brian Defur's intense interest in Tony. Quote, The whole thing has been an experience out of this world for them, said Brother Defur, as he gently massaged the bare shoulders of Tony, 16, bare shoulders which were aching where the straps of his heavy bass drum had left their angry marks. There was more to come after a whirlwind week. Brother Defur had a surprise for Tony and James when it came time to return to B.C..

TONY CHARLIE: Brian Defur came over to me and my brother James. Well, you guys can take your bags because you're staying with me. And we had no idea that was his plan to keep us back there in Montreal. We we had no clue. Me and my brother.

DUNCAN MCCUE: This is when everyone else is gone.

TONY CHARLIE: Yeah. They're all getting on the bus to go to the airport. He chose me, Tony. He said, You guys want us to stay here for another month? You guys will stay with me for another month. We didn't have no parents. We'd have to answer nobody. We [unintelligible[ for permission. We just stayed.

DUNCAN MCCUE: The school had signed off on it. One news report even mentioned the impromptu summer vacation approvingly, calling it an exciting thing for two outstanding students. Defur's parents lived in one of Montreal's working class neighbourhoods, Greenfield Park, and they took the two young Indian boys in. No questions asked.

TONY CHARLIE: The first night, he says, while. Tony, you can take that bedroom. It's not a very big room, just a bed in it. So. So I sleep in there and they pulled out this high, the bed made into bed. He said, James, you sleep with me tonight and. Okay. And so the next day, next night, he said, Well, your turn to sleep here and I to bed. Yeah. He said to me, yeah. I said, okay. So anyway, I slept with Brian. I was on the outside and my brother says, Well, he says to me, Did he do some funny stuff to you? And. Like we really couldn't talk because Brian was with us initially a lot beginning that time there. And I just nodded my head to him. I said, yes, you know, nodded my head.

DUNCAN MCCUE: It was an elaborate and slow play by Defur. Grooming, it might be called today. At the end of the summer, when Tony and James finally returned to the Cooper Island School, Brian Defur did not. He'd been transferred to a different Catholic residential school in Alberta. The newspaper published his goodbye letter, where he thanked everyone who had donated to get the kids to Expo. He wrote, I need not say how much I will miss the children and the good and kind people of Kuper Island. But Tony and James' troubles were just beginning. Because Brother Defur was far from the only perpetrator at Kuper Island. In September 1967, another Oblate was unloading his bags onto the wharf at Kuper Island. Before I get to Glenn Doughty, the new childcare worker for senior boys, let me explain a little bit about the Oblates of Mary Immaculate. They're an order of Catholic missionaries who ran nearly 50 residential schools in Canada, including Kuper Island. They were founded in the 19th century with a mission to evangelise the poor. This missionary spirit was far more important to be hired at an Indian residential school than any teacher training. Few teachers at residential schools had a university degree and they were paid piddling wages. So imagine a young Oblates such as Glenn Doughty, trained to sacrifice himself to God, deny himself human comforts as a sign of that commitment, stuck on a remote island with nothing to do except watch over a whole bunch of kids. Here's Tony.

TONY CHARLIE: Well, he was a very young man at the time, and he always had that smile like that, it wasn't a smiley smile. He just...

DUNCAN MCCUE: Showed his teeth.

TONY CHARLIE: Yeah. Father dowdy. He had thick glasses and short, wavy hair. People would today would call him a geek, but they got off controlling us and [unintelligible] us.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Like many Oblates, James says he had a harsh manner with children.

TONY CHARLIE: When he first became a brother, he used to go out in the woods, bring a Bible and shout, read the Bible shouting. That's where he got his control, his power through his voice.

DUNCAN MCCUE: The Oblates ruled the school, relentlessly cowing the children, even the nuns, into meek obedience. They had a separate dining room where they were served fresh food, nothing like the meagre rations the children were forced to eat. And given all the sacrifices they were making for God, they had a strong sense of entitlement.

TONY CHARLIE: He says, Well, he came to me one day. We got a lot of room here, so I think we're going to give you a room. You give me your own room. I said, okay. You know, I thought, well, I'm just getting my own room and and I'm still a bit naive and still pretty green about being guarded.

DUNCAN MCCUE: There were days students at Kuper Island who attended school but slept at home. And then there were the boarders. Tony and James started as day students. Then after the Montreal trip moved into residence. Let me emphasise Tony's interactions with Glen Daoudy happened the first week he was in the dorm.

TONY CHARLIE: He invited me to his room. He he said, well, I think we should get to know each other. And I said, okay. He said, I want you come to my room. And I said, okay. So we when we sat and I talked and talked, then he said, Well, well, I think it's time to go to sleep, he says. And I said, okay, I was going to go to my room. He said, You're going to you're going to come sleep with me tonight. And and I thought that was very odd to have that request come from an adult. So I went over to the bed reluctantly and I went on the other side. I was in my pyjamas and on his bed, he had one of those little nightlight, those lights. He just clicked it off. He. And he grabbed his hand. He put inside my pyjamas and he started, uh, grabbed my penis. And then then he says, well, he grabbed my hand and put it over his penis. So I had to, I did the same thing and it was just very shocking to have that happening because I was just meeting him. I didn't know him at the time and stuff, so I did that. But all that night I just laid there and I couldn't sleep. My mind wouldn't go to rest or anything. I was just like in a guarded situation to myself and. I said, Well, what would I do?

DUNCAN MCCUE: It wasn't just Tony. Brother Doughty was friendly with many of the boys in the dorm, often inviting some to his room for what he called magic tricks.

TONY CHARLIE: That's how we got people in this room, hypnotised them, hypnotised a lot of the day.

DUNCAN MCCUE: What do you mean?

TONY CHARLIE: Hypnosis. He'd hypnotised you. And some of the guys go under the spell in no time.

DUNCAN MCCUE: What would you do?

TONY CHARLIE: Well, actually, it was entertainment, but at the end, he used it to their advantage with exactly what I thought would happen.

DUNCAN MCCUE: No hypnosis required to get at Tony, though he was captive in a room by himself, dreading what were becoming regular nightly encounters with Brother Doughty.

TONY CHARLIE: It was so difficult to have that occur. You know, what do you do? This is supposed to be a holy man. This is supposed to be a Bible man, you know.

DUNCAN MCCUE: The abuse lasted months from September to December, until one night, Tony decided to move from his bottom bunk up to the empty top bunk. For a powerless young boy, it was an act of resistance. And with that, Downey's visit stopped. Tony avoided him during the day and in the night, Doughty moved on to other boys, including James.

TONY CHARLIE: We all knew every night it was he was going to be a sexual predator. He was going to come and look for somebody. At some nights, he was so horny to jump in and. And abuse one of the boys right next to you and the whole dormitory was awake, but everybody pretend they were sleeping. And the next morning, the poor guy could hardly walk. But nobody said nothing because that could be their turn tonight.

DUNCAN MCCUE: The boys stayed silent about the abuse. For many, the silence would carry on for years, bottled up, ravaging their hearts, minds and souls. Glenn Doughty later pled guilty to multiple charges of sexual abuse involving multiple victims at two residential schools, including Kuper Island. Brian Defur, on the other hand, was never charged criminally for abuse at the Cooper Island School. I'll get to the ins and outs of all the investigations and court battles and future episodes of the podcast. But downstairs, as we're getting ready to go, James pulls out a big legal binder right there. He sued Glenn Doughty in civil court. These are the documents from that case. It's been an exhausting day. Tony and I head for the ferry while we wait in the car. I take out the binder. Okay. So it is a very, very large binder with the boat. Yes. Typical legal binder. Probably 150 pages in it, maybe. Plaintiff James Francis Charlie. "JFC is 46 years of age, born 30th of July, 1952, resides in Penelakut. He was in residence at the school in the approximate years of 1966 to 1968. During this latter period, he was repeatedly assaulted sexually and physically by Doughty and by a person known to him as brother Defur". James's claim goes on to document the abuses. I'll just say they're graphic. Something else James didn't mention. He wasn't silent. He told the principal at the time. Father Larry Mackey. "JFC reported these assaults to the defendant, Mackey and other members of staff. Mackey told this defendant that it wasn't a sin, that the brothers were just relieving themselves. He was told to forgive them. That's the Catholic way". The next page sets out how the abuse impacted James's life. "JFC suffered and continues to suffer damages, which include but are not limited to the following: deprivation and the love and guidance of his parents and siblings. Loss of his Aboriginal language and culture and his family roots. Loss of the friendship, companionship. And support of his friends and community. Post-Traumatic stress disorder. Loss of self-esteem. Sexual trauma. Inability to undergo normal and healthy peer development. Inability to undergo normal and healthy sexual development. Inability to complete his education. Impaired ability to deal with persons in authority. Impaired ability to trust other people or to form or sustain intimate relationships. Impaired ability to provide a normal and healthy home for his family. Impaired ability to sustain a normal and healthy marital and sexual relationship. Fear, humiliation and embarrassment as a child and an adult. And sexual confusion and disorientation as a child and young adult. Impaired ability to express emotions in a normal and healthy manner. Impaired ability to control his anger and rage. Depression and anxiety. Attempted suicide. Sleep disorders. Physical pain and suffering. Stomach ulcers. Alcohol abuse and addiction. Impaired ability to obtain and sustain employment, resulting in lost income and loss of income and earning capacity. Requirement for ongoing medical and psychological treatment and counselling. Impaired ability to enjoy and participate in recreational, social, athletic and employment activities. Impaired ability to maintain employment. And an impaired ability to function when employed:. James has made two little marks at the bottom and says communication skills and loss of bonding with the children. That's the first two pages of this very large document.

[Music]

DUNCAN MCCUE: I first reached out to James and Tony to learn more about deaths at the school. They shared what they knew, particularly about the haunting death of Richard Thomas, that boy found hanging in the gym. You'd think being surrounded by death would be the most damaging kind of trauma any kid could experience. But that's not why most of his adult life Tony slept with a nightlight in his bedroom. Or why James grew up a bar brawler fighting to prove he wasn't gay. What tormented them were monsters, hungry monsters preying on children, terrified children cowering in shame. In the next episode of Kuper Island. We tracked down Richard's older sister, Belva, who had a phone call with him just days before he died.

BELVA: When? When I talked to him that last day, he was happy he was graduating. He was getting the hell out of that place. I would have loved to have seen them get out of there and just tell, because it wasn't only him. It was a whole lot of other boys.

CC: That was episode two of the CBC podcast Kuper Island with Duncan McCue. We'll hear the next episode tomorrow. If you're a survivor or intergenerational survivor of residential schools and need support, you can reach the Indian Residential Schools Crisis Line at 1 866 925 4419. Well, that's our programme for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for Q. Guest host Saroja Quello chats with actress Demi Moore about her memoir Inside Out. It looks at why she, one of Hollywood's most successful female stars, struggled with insecurity and inner turmoil. I'm Catherine Cullen in for Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current.

Tuesday July 12, 2022 Full Transcript

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