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The Current Transcript for March 08, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

Inside a COVID-19 vaccination clinic

MATT GALLOWAY: What a year it has been, more than two-and-a-half-million people dead around the world, more than 22,000 in this country, economies devastated, losses that will be felt for years to come. Everything's changed, really. And so throughout this week, we will take stock of the pandemic's impact on Canadians. We start in a place of hope, a vaccine clinic in Toronto.

EMILY MUSING: So you would have seen it coming into the building that the individuals already are screened at the point when they come in. That's to ensure that the individuals that come in themselves are not experiencing COVID symptoms, et cetera, because that would put everyone else at risk. Once they come through here, follow me, and I'll take you through. Hi, I'm Emily Musing, chief patient safety officer at UHN. We're at the MaRS Institute, where we are holding one of our largest clinics.

KEVIN SMITH: Hi, my name is Kevin Smith. I'm president and CEO at University Health Network.

MATT GALLOWAY: So how many people would be coming through here every day?

EMILY MUSING: Well, it really varies by the day, but we can do a maximum of about 1,500 to 1,800 people per day.

MATT GALLOWAY: And that would be again, I mean, we see some people who are in line here. Who are the lucky ones on this day who would be getting the vaccines?

EMILY MUSING: So the individuals that you'll see today are either acute care or long-term care health care workers. So these are individuals that actually work directly with patients with known COVID.

MATT GALLOWAY: We've been waiting for this vaccine for a long time, and it's been a year, and are really, really hard year. How would you describe the mood?

KEVIN SMITH: So when I was chatting with a couple of the staff the other day, a lot of tears, often tears of joy, but not always. So our long-term care colleagues, when they are coming in, their tears are often related to the people they lost. So it's a very emotional place. I think that they are tears of joy, but there are also tears, I think, of sadness and relief, tears of relief. They were scared going home every night, worrying about bringing this disease to their families and worried about what would happen if I got sick, especially in the early days when we were thinking everyone would end up in an ICU, potentially. So it's been a very emotional environment.

[the humming of a busy hallway]

EMILY MUSING: So as you see, once we come in here, we have a whole group of individuals that are involved in the receptionists' area. And then what they're going to do is they are going to then direct them to one of our booths where they will actually be vaccinated by a nurse. I'll walk you through this way now. This is a typical booth. It's, as you can see, quite compact, but there certainly is enough room for social distancing as we go through for the individual to interact with the nurse and to receive the vaccine in a very calm way.

VIVIENNE: Hi, my name is Vivienne and I work at the Autumn Hill. I was about to take a picture because I wanted to show it to my kids.

WOMAN: Oh, you can ask them to take a picture.

VIVIENNE: Oh, yeah, sure! [laughing] Because they told me, hi, Mommy, can you just take a picture? I wanted to see. [ woman chuckles] It's like, yeah, I'm going to have a poke today.

VIVIENNE: OK, so today is going to be the Pfizer. Is it your first or the second dose?

WOMAN: It's the first time. First and for a long time! [both laugh] I'm like, come o, can we be doing this?!

VIVIENNE: All right.

[the stretching sound of that blue band they tie around your arm during shots].

VIVIENNE: All right, there we go.

WOMAN: There we go. I'm going to be doing this. OK.

VIVIENNE: All right. All right, there we go. You're going to feel a little bit cold.

VIVIENNE: There we go! [chuckling]. Ready?

WOMAN: I'm ready!

VIVIENNE: Perfect!

WOMAN: Done?! That's it?!

VIVIENNE: Yes! I told you, I'm good. [Matt and the nurse laugh]. I've been working here since January.

WOMAN: Oh yeah? [chuckling].

MATT GALLOWAY: How did that feel?

VIVIENNE: It feels great! I mean, I thought like... it's done? That's it? I'm so excited to just let them know that Mommy is safe.

MATT GALLOWAY: What's it like giving people the shot?

VIVIENNE: It's good to help like to stop the spread and all of that, so.

MATT GALLOWAY: And you're fast! As you said, you're just zzt, ztt, in and out.

VIVIENNE: Yeah, I want to go really quick and make them feel as comfortable as possible. And then they can come for the second dose. [laughing].

MATT GALLOWAY: Fantastic! Thank you very much!

VIVIENNE: You're welcome!

EMILY MUSING: So this gives you a very good idea of what the booths are actually like, and we can just walk through this area. This gives you a sense of really also how busy the clinic is. Pretty well, all our booths are full or waiting for the next individual to come through.

MATT GALLOWAY: Are you getting the shot?

JULIE MACINTIRE: I am.

MATT GALLOWAY: Can we watch you get the shot?

JULIE MACINTIRE: Sure. [laughing] I didn't expect this.

MAN: How are you?

JULIE MACINTIRE: Fine. I'm Julie MacIntire. I'm a family doctor. Well, actually, I shouldn't qualify. I'm a retired family doctor, and I now do counselling and advanced care planning in end-of-life care. But I'm hoping that this will now enable me to volunteer to give it a shot as it... as it's rolling out.

VIVIENNE: Ready?

JULIE MACINTIRE: Hardly felt it! She's very good. Excellent.

MATT GALLOWAY: OK, so what was that like?

JULIE MACINTIRE: Well, given the scenario, it's a little surreal. I know a friend of mine cried when she got it, and I am about that grateful.

MATT GALLOWAY: Really? Tell me more about that. I mean, and where the gratitude comes from in that?

JULIE MACINTIRE: Well, first of all, I know that no other vaccine has been able to be produced in under four years before. And this is like it was developed in less than a year, which is, to me, miraculous. So I am... I'm very grateful to be able to be one of the early recipients.

MATT GALLOWAY: It's really quite something.

JULIE MACINTIRE: It is! Amazing in that it's... It's just seamless, the whole process. I'm... I know we hear so much stuff about the rollout, but I'm here, and I'm getting it, and so are a lot of others. And I think it's just going to ramp up. And I think everybody should look at it as quite a positive thing.

MATT GALLOWAY: Lucky you, thanks for talking to us.

JULIE MACINTIRE: Oh, my pleasure, thank you. Yeah.

MATT GALLOWAY: It's kind of strange to watch somebody get a needle! [Matt and Jule laugh] It's kind of laike vaguely invasive.

JULIE MACINTIRE: It's a good distraction, though, I have to say.

MATT GALLOWAY: That's good, yeah. And now you're done.

JULIE MACINTIRE: And now I'm not.

MATT GALLOWAY: And out ya go, back into the universe.

JULIE MACINTIRE: Exactly, exactly.

EMILY MUSING: So after they receive their vaccine, what happens is they are given a time to let them know when that was done. You'll see a big clock there. They're asked to then sit in this area, and we ask them to sit and wait for 15 minutes so that we can observe them and they can observe their own symptoms to ensure that they do not have any adverse reactions that they would like us to respond to.

KEVIN SMITH: We've had almost no one with the reaction, and the reactions have been very modest, those that have.

WOMAN: I'll just get the form from you. Thank you.

EMILY MUSING: At the end of that 15 minutes, then they bring their paperwork to the individuals who sign them out. At that point, they're given further information about confirming their second dose dates.

WOMAN: Here you go. Everything's good.

EMILY MUSING: Anything that they need to know with regard to potential adverse events they may experience after they leave us, and we give them a confirmation slip of paper so that they can show others if they need to that they actually have received the vaccination.

WOMAN: OK?

WOMAN#2: All right.

WOMAN: Perfect!

EMILY MUSING: Next, I'm going to show you where these things happen behind the scenes. This is the pharmacy area.

MATT GALLOWAY: OK, great!

EMILY MUSING: Good morning, everyone.

WOMAN: Hi there!

MATT GALLOWAY: Morning, everybody.

EMILY MUSING: They spend all their time every day [chuckling] preparing the vaccine syringes so that we're ready for the many recipients which are coming in to get the vaccine.

MATT GALLOWAY: This is a vital work back happening back here. I mean, this is precious stuff, right?

EMILY MUSING: Yes!

MATT GALLOWAY: We were just out watching people get the vaccine. And again, given the year that we've all gone through, you're right in the heart of this, right? This is kind of the nerve centre, in some ways, of getting it out. What's it like to be part of this?

ELENA PALACIOS: I actually came out of retirement to do this. My name is Elena Palacios, and it's been really special for me because I just... it's just been... it it makes me feel good, makes me feel good to feel like I'm helping people.

MATT GALLOWAY: You can hear it like in your voice.

ELENA PALACIOS: Yeah, yeah.

MATT GALLOWAY: It's a really emotional thing.

ELENA PALACIOS: Yeah, it is. So this is the vial here. And it's very delicate, so we don't shake it. So we take the fresh vial, we invert it very gently 10 times. We reconstitute it with the one-point-eight mils of normal saline, and then we invert it again another 10 times, and then we start to drop. So I'm just going to... sorry, I'm just going to grab this, [exerting]. That's ready, so there's a bunch ready to be checked. That's six doses that I've done already.

MATT GALLOWAY: And those are ready to go into --

ELENA PALACIOS: Those are ready to go.

MATT GALLOWAY: Into arms.

ELENA PALACIOS: Now, it's a bit fiddly. It takes a little... so in we go. So we can't have any big air bubbles. So then we just draw back. Take that out. Recap it.

MATT GALLOWAY: And that's a dose?

ELENA PALACIOS: And that's a dose. Put the safety on, and we're done!

MATT GALLOWAY: You're very... you're very delicate in how you're handling it all, too.

ELENA PALACIOS: Well, you know, it's just you have to think this is going into somebody, and, you know, it's a pretty hot commodity so. [someone chuckles in the background]

MATT GALLOWAY: Like, we've all been through this thing, right?

ELENA PALACIOS: Mm-hmm.

MATT GALLOWAY: Like, do you think about what this is going to mean to the people who are going to get this in their arm?

ELENA PALACIOS: I do, because there's, like personally, I know somebody who I am around, they're a part of my bubble, who is on dialysis. He's already been fully vaccinated. But you have to think about that. You have to think about the people in the community that, you know, you don't know, you don't know who might be a cancer survivor. You don't know who, you know, the elderly and the people that are much higher risk. And, you know, the sooner we get everybody vaccinated will be so much better. And just happy to be doing my part.

MATT GALLOWAY: Thanks for doing it. And thanks for talking to us.

ELENA PALACIOS: Thanks!

MATT GALLOWAY: I appreciate it.

ELENA PALACIOS: Thank you. Take care.

WOMAN: You keep the health card together with the form and follow the blue shoeprints all the way. And someone will show you where to go next.

WOMAN#2: Blue?

WOMAN: Shoeprints

WOMAN#2: Blueprint, OK. Can I go now?

WOMAN#2: Yes.

MATT GALLOWAY: There is, I mean, you have this board that occasionally will show kind of what's going on. Can you describe that board?

KEVIN SMITH: Yeah. So thanks to our colleagues in digital at UHN, they came up with a great system that allowed us to keep track. How many are in the freezer? How many will you be doing today? How many are left? Do you have any... any vaccine we can move around? So that was one important thing. The other important thing, I think, was for the confidence of our staff and our community to say, hey, you've inoculated about 50,000 people so far. That's a good start. Now, in the grand scheme of... of Canada, we still have a hell of a long way to go, but it's a good start.

MATT GALLOWAY: Tell me more about that good start? I mean, we're in some ways at the beginning of this, but I mean, the prime minister was saying, I think, in the last couple of days, everybody wants the vaccine. Yesterday, we wish it was faster.

KEVIN SMITH: Absolutely.

MATT GALLOWAY: So where are we at in this?

KEVIN SMITH: Yeah, so we're very early... we're early days. We're still very focused on those at highest risk. We're now very focused on getting to the frail elderly, getting to those and under-housed situations, getting to the marginalized populations who are often racialized populations. And I think all of us would have liked to have been able to have the supply to do that much more quickly. That's where the disease is growing. This is a regional disease, right? It is not spreading equally across the country. Poverty is a major risk factor for this disease in every possible way and in every country. And we know throughout the history of the world, people hit hardest by every pandemic in our history are those most marginalized. So we really have to continue to focus there.

MATT GALLOWAY: So are we getting the right people vaccinated now, do you think?

KEVIN SMITH: I do think we're, for the most part, getting the right people vaccinated. We started out, and understandably, on a speed-oriented initiative. And we all remember Christmas and Boxing Day. There was a bit of outrage that there were some vaccines in freezers. So, at that point, the message changed a bit and said, no... no vaccines in freezers. Opt for speed, do your best with precision, but not at the expense of getting needles in arms. So I think we did that well. It's never perfect, right? When you take on something for 35-million Canadians, it will never be perfect. We didn't have a perfect I.T. system. We didn't have a perfect deployment system. We didn't have a perfect emergency disaster management system that said, here's how you do this for the whole of Canada. We've never done it before. But do I think everybody got up every day to do their best and tried their hardest? They did.

MATT GALLOWAY: What's your sense of that, Emily? I mean, are we... there's a real call for urgency. People want this thing to move. And they'll look at other jurisdictions, and they'll say, well, why aren't we there? Why haven't we been able to do that? How do you see the issue of urgency and the velocity of this program right now?

EMILY MUSING: Yes, I think that the urgency certainly is totally there. And each individual wants themselves and their family to be protected. And they're asking very important questions with regard to when that is going to happen. We will eventually make it to everyone, including the general public. But at this point, there is a limit with regard to the amount of vaccine that we are receiving.

MATT GALLOWAY: And is that what you're held back by? Is... is the amount of vaccine?

EMILY MUSING: Yes, correct!

MATT GALLOWAY: I mean, this is kind of the supply conversation over the course of the last couple of months.

EMILY MUSING: Yeah.

MATT GALLOWAY: How much of a difference is it going to make not to have to give the second dose within the three to four week timeframe? This is seem... I mean, the guidance is and, you know, some anxiety around this, but looking at upwards of four months.

KEVIN SMITH: You know what? It's a very mixed bag. So it will make a big difference in terms of logistics in a positive way. It's making a very negative impact on people who are frightened. UHN is a science-based organization, and everyone who comes here is saying, I want to see the data on that. I've seen NACI's report, and it's extrapolated data. So I'm not suggesting that it isn't good data. But would we ever at UHN introduce outside of a time of dramatic emergency a drug in this way? Never. We would never do that. And we would never extend this period with as little data as we have. We're being persuaded, we're being directed, right? We're being directed by. But Emily and all of us are getting tons of calls of people who are angry and saying, wait a second, I didn't consent to that. When I got my... my jab, I consented to following the label. So it's on the one hand, it'll make things easier. On the other hand, it's making things a lot harder.

EMILY MUSING: But at all costs, we tell people, please continue to get that second shot no matter when it is. We want them to complete their therapy.

KEVIN SMITH: So one of the most interest in the world that we live in in terms of social media, the fact that Tony Fauci has been not so positive about this model has precipitated more calls than almost anything else.

MATT GALLOWAY: I mean, we talk a lot about vaccine hesitancy, not people who say I'm never going to get the vaccine, but who have those questions. Do you worry that this could contribute to that hesitancy?

KEVIN SMITH: Oh, 100 per cent. And I think, you know what? At the moment, we're consumed with those who want it, which is great. But when we do our calculations, there's still a lot of people at the hospitals we're inoculating who are not registered. And when we get through those who want it, it'll be a significant number. Some are estimating 30 to 40 per cent of people who have said, no, I'm not... I don't want it. And I certainly don't want it unless I can have it on the label. Now was not an excuse for people who don't want it, period, or who are frightened? Possibly. But we have a big, big, big job to do in persuading people why this is a good vaccine. All of them are good vaccines. Why we should do this, and why we should particularly do it amongst groups who are at highest risk, who don't historically have the highest trust in the health care system or in authority-oriented decision-making.

MATT GALLOWAY: How are you going about earning that trust? We've spoken with people across the country, on First Nations, in communities that, to your point, might have an experience that would lead them to distrust the health care system. How do you go about earning that trust?

EMILY MUSING: So we have provided vaccines for First Nations and for those different groups. I think the most important thing is to actually work with someone who is a leader or someone who's trusted within those groups because it doesn't help for someone that they don't know to come in to direct them to get vaccines.

KEVIN SMITH: We were lucky to set up our social medicine initiative sometime ago, and that's really allowed us to build some trust with various communities, particularly BIPOC communities. And then exactly as Emily said, who are the trusted voices of the communities we need to reach out to? So, for example, we heard in areas that have a high Southasian community that, you know, the Bollywood actor community is very influential among that population. So way more important than having doctors and nurses and pharmacists and generals talking about it is people who they trust in their communities. And that's a very important component of what I would call the marketing of this vaccine.

MATT GALLOWAY: So there's, what, like a dozen people in the line right now, maybe a few more. Is the system, I mean, broadly, are we going to be ready when these vaccines arrive at scale to turn this machine on and get the shots out to people?

KEVIN SMITH: Certainly, UHN is going to be ready. Thanks to Emily and the teams. Our number one rate-limiting factor is not people, it's vaccine. And as soon as we get that, the number of people who used to work at UHN or retired, people who are in the broader community who are volunteering, students in health professional programs. We're also looking at cranking up a program at our Michener Institute so that people who don't have a health professional background can do inoculations.

MATT GALLOWAY: So they would learn how to --

KEVIN SMITH: They would learn how to do --

MATT GALLOWAY: To get a shot.

KEVIN SMITH: To do a vascular injection. And they would need to be approved. But when we're talking about a million a day, that is exactly what we need to do. Because our our health care providers, they actually need to go back and ramp up our other health care activities. So having a new workforce to do that will be tremendously helpful.

EMILY MUSING: It's all hands on deck right now.

KEVIN SMITH: The risk, what... what do we worry about? We had this discussion last night, will the vaccine result in people lowering their guard for good behaviours? Vaccine alone is ia great step, but it's not the full tilt. The full tilt is vaccine and continuing to observe all the public health measures, masking handwashing, physical distancing and only socializing with those who reside for some period of time yet.

MATT GALLOWAY: For how long is the question that people ask. Because they want to get back to what they were doing a year-less-a-month ago or something like that.

KEVIN SMITH: So the estimates, if you look at what we're hearing from the prime minister about supply, it's probably the fall. And then we need to make sure that our interpretation of immunity with with 80 per cent or 75 per cent of people vaccinated bears that would in truth. And what's going to be more difficult with this change and this gap between first and second dose is we won't be able to easily compare ourselves to other jurisdictions. Other jurisdictions have not followed this regimen. So we can't easily extrapolate. Does not mean we're equally safe to someone who's ahead of us, or do we have to do our own experiment? And I think we do have to do our own experiment.

MATT GALLOWAY: So, I mean, I don't know whether you go to the theatre or watch movies or go to a baseball game or a soccer game or travel?

KEVIN SMITH: Would be happy to do any of those.

MATT GALLOWAY: [Matt and Kevin laugh] I think all of us would be. But at what point in time are we going to be able to do that?

KEVIN SMITH: You know, I wish... I wish someone had the exact answer to that. I don't think there is an exact answer. I think, you know what? If you look ahead, the earliest one would suspect that's likely to be possible would probably be the winter next winter, maybe the spring, if you were being a little less optimistic. But, you know, first jab, wait four months, getting 70 per cent or so of Canadians done. We have a road ahead of us.

MATT GALLOWAY: And this is all part of it.

KEVIN SMITH: A small part.

MATT GALLOWAY: Thank you very much.

MATT GALLOWAY: Kevin Smith is the CEO of the University Health Network, Emily Musing is its VP of quality and safety. Thanks to everyone at the MaRS Centre in downtown Toronto who spoke with us. Tomorrow, on the program, a tribute to those who have died of COVID-19. And on Thursday, we're inviting you to call in to the program and let us know how you're doing one year into this pandemic. The CBC News is next. And then, more in our series "Covid in Canada: One Year and Counting". We'll hear how you have made the best of this very difficult year, from concerts in your car to baking bread. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to "The Current". We're back in six minutes.

[Music: Theme]

Calgary choir's drive-in concerts a chance to perform 'like old times

[Music crescendos]

MATT GALLOWAY: Sourdough, it is a pretty intimidating thing. And people will look at recipes from bakeries, and it's a 37-page recipe, and they'll think, oh my goodness, I couldn't possibly do this. What sort of support are you offering people [chucling] who are entering into the world of sourdough baking?

WOMAN: I would offer solidarity. I'm a microbial ecologist. I've been studying the tiny bugs in fancy labs for over a decade. And it was intimidating and humbling to me, too, to enter the world of fermented foods. And instead of feeling like there's no single right way or there's no direction. Think of it as... as artistic licence.

[Music crescendos]

WOMAN: There's something completely magical about doing something physical, writing something physical in my own home, folding it up, putting it in another piece of paper, walking to some box near my house, and then magically, a couple of days or depending [chuckling] on where I'm standing it, couple of weeks later, it appears in the hands and at the house of someone I care about. And they get this physical missive that I have sent from my home to theirs. And the more that our world is like instantaneous and automated, the more sort of stunning it feels.

[Music crescendos]

MATT GALLOWAY: We can't get together to actually learn the dances face-to-face. So now people in this pandemic have to do this virtually. What has that meant for you to be able to connect with people?

MAN: That meant a lot. In my very first class, 70 people from all over Canada, from all provinces and territories, they joined my classes. It was really, really like a touching moment for me. Like when I saw so many faces in my Zoom class, it meant a lot to me.

MATT GALLOWAY: We're going to play a tune, and people are going to be able to dance at home. We can't give the whole lesson. What's the one thing that people need to do if they... if they want to dance along to this?

MAN: They need to lift their left leg up. And then they need to tap it twice. And on the right leg, they hope twice. So left leg up, [Matt chucles] hobble right twice and do twice left side, then they do twice same thing right side.

[Music: A traditional Bhangra dance song]

MATT GALLOWAY: You wonder how many people learned Bhangra dancing online this year. Sounds fun, but in many cases going virtual just is not the same. And if you are a musician, particularly a musician used to playing and performing with others, this past year has been a huge adjustment. There was a moment early on in this pandemic when people who sing with choirs will remember very well, of course, the rehearsal in Washington State that a lot of people were talking about all those months ago turned into a super spreader event. Dozens of people got sick, two people died. And from that moment on, choirs grew silent, unable to sing together. Months later, though, a core group in Calgary called Luminous Voices has found a way to perform in person again, sort of. Judy. Aldous is a CBC host and producer. And here is her documentary, "Honking is the New Applause".

[engines of cars idle]

JUDY ALDOUS: Cars stream into a small parking lot behind this church in south Calgary. They're here for choir practice, except today they won't head inside the church. In fact, they won't leave their cars.

TM SHANTZ: Hey, Sarah.. Good to see you. Just hold on, because we're going to let Julie take her cord away.

SARAH: Oh, I see.

TM SHANTZ: And then, yeah, you'll be beside Megan there. And you... this is your mic.

SARAH: Great!

TM SHANTZ: And you are number five, Kay? You're always going to be five this weekend.

SARAH: Got it!

JUDY ALDOUS: Tim Shantz is holding a handful of microphones, passing them through car windows as the choir members drive in. He's wearing a baggy wool sweater, a small toque, rainboots. He looks more hipster than choir director today.

TM SHANTZ: You know, I'm usually not the tech person, but, you know, it just helps to have fewer contacts. So I'm just handing out then the only point of contact here, really, is this microphone.

JUDY ALDOUS: There are 14 cars all parked in a row. Sopranos to the left, altos in the middle. Turn right and you see the bass. And one of the most unusual choir practices you can imagine is about to begin. No, wait... someone's car battery has died. A quick boost, and now the rehearsal can begin.

TM SHANTZ: [warming up vocal chords] How's everybody doing?

[some cheers in the distance].

Thank you! How nice to hear. Oh, we're only 15 minutes behind. That's not so bad, everybody. OK, that's fine now. OK, actually, now one more time so I can adjust it. [chuckling] Good, good. Good, good, good, Oliver?

[Oliver vocalizes].

TM SHANTZ: There we go!

WOMAN: [laughing] Always one-upping us, Oliver.

TM SHANTZ: [laughing] Same thing, Oliver.

[Oliver vocalizes again]

TM SHANTZ: Awesome, thank you, thank you. Nick?

[Nick vocalizes, a group of people laugh]

TM SHANTZ: You've got to move up! Aaron, oh-oh!

[Aaron vocalizes].

JUDY ALDOUS: The singers are in their cars, and Shantz is outside. A little tent set up beside him, like one you'd see at a kid's soccer practice. But it's warm and calm today, so he doesn't need it for shelter. He lifts his arms and they begin.

[the chior sings].

TM SHANTZ: Yeah, good, good, good. I know you're looking at your music, so we'll start to move forward quite a bit already. Go from 24, everybody, beat three. Let's start from there. Soft, one, two.

[the chior sings].

TM SHANTZ: One, two, three, four. One, two, three, four. And breathe. Connect here, one, two. One, two. Good. Breathe together.

JUDY ALDOUS: There were months when Shantz couldn't do this. When singing, which is something he's been doing since he was a child, was all of a sudden seen as something dangerous.

TM SHANTZ: Devastating would be the word, and it... lust a gut punch. Like it was... this is something that none of us ever thought would be taken away. I mean, you can have economic crises or various crises, and you think, well, people will be able to sing together. And I think that's really important. It's important to social cohesion. That's important to mental health. It's important for our... our ability to communicate and creatively communicate. But for this then to be taken away, that was really dumbfounding. I... I... I... it still is hard to take.

JUDY ALDOUS: They tried Zoom singing, but the delays were frustrating. So the group went silent for a few months until Shantz heard from a friend in the U.S. who'd come up with the way to perform from inside a car.

TM SHANTZ: And he was experimenting with some simple technologies, just using an FM transmitter and trying to sing or make music with other people. He did this actually with a pianist who was in a home, and then he was in his car outside. And he, you know, posted these videos online. So I got a chance to see this is... this is actually working!

JUDY ALDOUS: The technology itself is pretty simple. Each car has a microphone. The cords come out all of the car windows and then are plugged into one mixing board. The combined voices are sent out on an FM transmitter. Then each singer tunes into a spot on the FM dial to hear themselves without a delay. It means they're always physically apart, but their voices are woven together.

[the chior sings]

JUDY ALDOUS: Caleb Nelson sings tenor in this choir. He's also a sound engineer. His hair flops over his eyes. His nails are painted bright blue. He's turned his van into a makeshift studio.

[the beeping made when keys are in the ignition]

CALEB NELSON: Check, check, check. Yes, you can hear that I'm... I'm coming to the radio right now. Yeah, and super live, too, which is great. So there's no actual... well, there's a little bit feedback. There's no... there's no issue with us syncing to each other as a choir. That's the biggest part about the FM.

JUDY ALDOUS: OK, so how far away from here would people be able to hear you?

CALEB NELSON: The transmitter is supposed to go over two kilometres. So we've never really tested it. But that's... it's really, really cool to feel like people can be... yeah, Tim's on right now.

TM SHANTZ: Eighty-nine-point-three is where we're going to be, don't worry. And you're going to --

JUDY ALDOUS: That's choir director Tim Shantz coming through the radio from the other side of the parking lot. So he is I don't even see him. Where is he?

CALEB NELSON: I Don't even know where he is!

JUDY ALDOUS: There he is!

CALEB NELSON: [Judy and Caleb chuckle] There he is! I'm sorry! I interrupted your interview.

JUDY ALDOUS: So he's... this is going to mess with me here. It's hard to keep track. So he's over there --

CALEB NELSON: Yeah, it's all sending to the same signal. So he and I are both on wireless microphones and wireless headphones so that we can roam about and talk to the choir from wherever we happened to be.

JUDY ALDOUS: What was this like for you to set this up?

CALEB NELSON: This was great. This was, for me, this is an amalgamation of several different passions for me because I've been acquiring.. I'm going to turn this --

JUDY ALDOUS: We're getting you in full force there, yeah!

CALEB NELSON: For me, it... it really brings together a bunch of passions because I've been a choral... choral nerd for as long as I can remember. And I've also been into recording engineering and live sound mixing and all sorts of different things. So it's really satisfying, really satisfying.

JUDY ALDOUS: It's kind of a bit old-school isn't it?

CALEB NELSON: It is! Very old-school. All the tech that we're using is very old. We could have... we could have done a car choir concert in the 70s!

[footsteps, cars idling and distant chatter]

JUDY ALDOUS: Julie Freedman Smith is sitting in the passenger side of her white minivan. The seat is laid back. She's sitting up straight.

JULIE FREEDMAN SMITH: Normally, the best way to sing is to stand. Well, we can't stand in our cars. So then you sit, but we can't sit with a good posture on a regular car seats. So I've got my car seat laid back. I've got towels and blankets set up. And then you have to hold your microphone and your music at the same time and turn pages. And so now we've got microphone stands in the cars, and I've got my music on my iPad. [chucklig]

JUDY ALDOUS: This is the setup she's maintained throughout the rehearsal. It's not comfortable, but she puts up with it because she's finally back doing the things she loves most.

JULIE FREEDMAN SMITH: Clearly remember the first time that we did this. And... and it was just the magic of we all plugged in our microphones and then tuned our radios to the FM dial that... that the sound was coming through. And and all of a sudden, all my friends were in the car with me, like, I could just visit and talk with a whole group of people. And it's not the same as Zoom because there's no lag. You're just there, and you're... you're interacting. And we were laughing together, and we were just... it just felt like old times. It felt like, oh, yeah. If you're creative in a way that you can just be creative on your own, then great. Then perhaps you haven't been that stymied by this. But if you're if... if your main source of creativity involves other people, and you can't get together with those people, then you kind of feel like a piece of you has been cut out. And so anyway, any experiment, any way that we could do it and still follow the rules and keep everybody safe, I'm in. Like, I was ready to go to work.

TM SHANTZ: Well, there we were in a park in a parking lot on a Saturday morning. People looking at us in cars wondering what's going on. We're set up. And I'm standing there, and I'm just laughing to myself. I'm thinking, this is crazy. And yet, then we started making music, and we were all laughing and crying and just having the experience that we've all been missing.

[the chior sings].

TM SHANTZ: This row.

MAN: Yeah, no. This is our first double row.

MAN#2 Oh, this is double. I'm sorry.

I guess, well, yeah, no, this is our first double row.

JUDY ALDOUS: Another night, another parking lot. This one is attached to a high school, much bigger. [a car horn] Good thing, too. There is a line of cars waiting to get in to see the show.

JUDY ALDOUS: Did you say there are 175 cars?

MAN#2 One-hundred, seventy-five cars, yeah. So, we're really thrilled with the ammount of people that have signed up tonight to be here, of course. Yeah, so we're really thrilled with the amount of people that have signed up tonight to be here, of course.

JUDY ALDOUS: Right up at the front, Tim Shantz is inside his van staying warm. No more hipster look tonight. He is all in black, from the black turtleneck under his suit to the toque on his head.

TM SHANTZ: How am I feeling? I'm feeling just warm enough so I can survive the cold. I do have my jacket, but I thought I should start looking like a conductor. And, yeah, this... there's moments of, uh, we're crazy. You know, we say we're crazy. But then you see the cars coming in here and into the parking lot, and, you know, they sold out the event. So it's... I mean, there's just not enough going on right now. And so, at the same time, you think, uh, people are interested. But also, I think it's just it's a vital sign that, you know, the arts are needed.

JUDY ALDOUS: There's a transport trailer parked upfront. In big letters, 105-point-nine FM is projected on the side, so everyone knows how to tune in. In smaller letters, it reads, honking is the new applause. Shantz has left his warm van. He's standing on a box. He faces a semicircle of 14 cars; that's his choir. Behind him, the audience.

TM SHANTZ: We're thrilled to be here, and we'll have more things to say through the concert. We'll explain some of what we're doing as well, not just the music, but some of the technical side of things. Um, but we do want to actually start by singing. Um, so this is Luminous Voices.

[the chior sings]

JUDY ALDOUS: Right in the front row, Pat Cashion is listening from the driver's seat of his Subaru. He got here early to get a good spot.

PAT CASHION: We come because we love the music. That's our principal reason. Music we find opens to the heart. It opens the soul. And it's a wonderful way to hear these enormously talented people present some great, great musical compositions. The two previous ones were in a parking lot next to an arena, and they worked really well. Everybody kind of wondered what to do, and, for example, at the end of the first number, well, so what do we do about applause? We're all sitting in our cars. So everyone started honking.

[several honks]

TM SHANTZ: It worked! It worked! You heard us! So thankful for that.

[more honks].

TM SHANTZ: We had the car horns honking after us, you know, us singing, that was it was so heartening. It really brought tears to the eyes. And and there were so many people in attendance who spoke of that same feeling.

TM SHANTZ: Um, and I'd invite you to sing along to this next one. We're going to close out our concert, everyone, to "Lean On Me". That's the thing, you can sing as loud or soft as you want in your car. We can't hear you. [a woman laughs in the distance] Join us, would you? How are you? karaoke.... caraoke! [some pople chuckle] Here we go. One, two, three, four.

[The chior sings]

JUDY ALDOUS: Oh, my gosh. Oh, it was so... that was so awesome. [sigh] I am tired I am thirsty. And I'm really just wanting to get out of the car and move around. Sitting in the same position to sing a song... to sing a whole concert is... it's hard. It's not the ideal singing situation, that's for sure [chuckling]. But it was so much fun. And I love hearing the audience honking. And... and us having that interaction, just being able to sing and having people. It just feels like they're right in the car with you. So amazing, and singing, and just creating memory... like, helping people to pull back on memories that the music might help them to relate to or memories of singing these pieces before. It's pretty.. it's pretty amazing. And I'm so grateful that we have a chance to do this.

TM SHANTZ: You can honk to this. [a honk] Good!

[The chior sings]

MATT GALLOWAY: "Honking is The New Applause" was produced by Judy Aldous in Calgary, host of "Alberta at Noon". Liz Hoath is "The Current"'s documentary editor.

[the chior sings]

MATT GALLOWAY: This is "The Current" on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway. A lot of people miss their choir, and plenty more, it turns out. This pandemic is not over, but we asked you to dream a little and let us know what you're looking forward to doing the most when we get out of this thing that we're in right now. Our senior producer, Karin Marley is here. Karin has been reading through your responses, as I have. We have enjoyed this. Karin, good morning.

KARIN MARLEY: Good morning. I'll start with this from Kelly Barrett. I want to go see live music, and stand shoulder to shoulder with friends and strangers, and scream my heart out. I want to have people in my home for food and drink. I want to hug my friends. I want to see the smile of my children well in the arms of their grandparents.

MATT GALLOWAY: More on that from Becca McNeil, who tweets, Having my parents cuddle their granddaughter again. She's 16 months, and only had socially distant, and FaceTime visits with them.

KARIN MARLEY: Oh! Andrew Johnson writes, I can't believe I'm about to say this, but the thing I probably miss the most is being on Toronto Public Transit. The rush hour, stuffed into the subway, silently rocking back and forth with my fellow commuters. It reminded me I was part of the heartbeat of the city. And I haven't been a part of that heartbeat in a long time.

MATT GALLOWAY: The things you would never think that you miss, that it turns out you actually do miss.

KARIN MARLEY: It's true.

MATT GALLOWAY: This from Katie Rajans, and I can concur with this. An ice-cold arena, drinking crap coffee, eating popcorn that's too salty and talking about minor hockey like it matters.

KARIN MARLEY: Eya Catulski in Wellington County, Ontario says, I can't wait to go handle all the chainsaw's at the farm equipment store when this pandemic is over. You can't choose the one you want from a picture in a catalogue.

MATT GALLOWAY: And Jay Hawkins tweets, putting public speaking back on the top of my anxiety list instead of, well, you know, contracting COVID-19. Also, seeing my children, who are in another province.

KARIN MARLEY: We love hearing from you. These little missives were so great. Tweet us: @TheCurrentCBC, or send an email to: thecurrent@cbc.ca. Dream a little. What are you most looking forward to when the pandemic is over?

MATT GALLOWAY: Karin, thank you very much.

KARIN MARLEY: Thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY: Coming up after your regional update,.

JULIA GILLARD: It was only when an organization was in trouble that they said, oh, we got to shake things up. What can we do that's just never been done before? Ah-ha, we'll get a woman!

MATT GALLOWAY: The former Australian prime minister Julia Gillard is here to talk about women in leadership. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to "The Current". Stay with us.

[Music: Theme]

Julia Gillard on how to tackle gender bias and sexism in leadership

Guest: Julia Gillard

MATT GALLOWAY: Hi. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to "The Current". In 2012, Australia's then prime minister, Julia Gillard, delivered a speech that hit a nerve with women around the world.

JULIA GILLARD: I was offended, too, by the sexism, by the misogyny of the leader of the opposition catcalling across this table.

MAN: Here, hear!

JULIA GILLARD: At me as I sit here as prime minister. If the prime minister wants to, politically speaking, make an honest woman of herself. Something that would never have been said to any man sitting in this chair. I was offended when the leader of the opposition went outside in the front of parliament and stood next to a sign that said, ditch the witch. I was offended when the leader of the opposition stood --

WOMAN: Order.

JULIA GILLARD: Next to a sign that described me as a man's bitch.

MATT GALLOWAY: While nearly a decade later, not much has changed. Women in public life continue to face sexism and misogyny, and Julia Gillard's speech continues to resonate. Her new book is "Women and Leadership: Real Lives, Real Lessons". It was co-written with Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala, the former Nigerian finance minister who is now head of the World Trade Organization. And Julia Gillard joins me from Adelaide, Australia. Good morning.

JULIA GILLARD: Good morning. Great to be with you.

MATT GALLOWAY: Thank you for being here. What were you feeling as you made that speech?

JULIA GILLARD: I was feeling a cool anger. Not a hot anger, a cool anger. I hadn't expected to give a speech in parliament that day. So the speech was off-the-cuff, it came from the heart. And I think it had in it all of the frustration that had been welling up in me over time about my treatment as a woman in politics. I decided early on in my time as prime minister that there would be a lot of interest in me being the first woman. But I thought the treatment of me as a politician would equalize over time. What I actually found was that the gendered insults and the like increased. And so I had just tolerated that and tolerated that. And when a moment came to speak out about it, I think all of that frustration and cool anger showed, in the moment.

MATT GALLOWAY: You say in the book, in some ways, that you'd been honing the skill set behind that speech for... for a number of years. Are you surprised a number of years later that it is still, as they say, a viral sensation?

JULIA GILLARD: Absolutely astonished. If you had said to me on the day that I gave that speech that we'd still be talking about it a fortnight later, [chuckling] I would have looked at you with skepticism, let alone all of these years later.

MATT GALLOWAY: How much do you think has changed in leadership for women in the decade since that speech?

JULIA GILLARD: In some ways, quite a lot, and in other ways not nearly enough. I think we are absolutely having the right conversation now. And people are onto just that there is differential treatment of women in politics and women in generally in life. And people are increasingly energized around changing that. But I'm also frustrated about the degree of change we're seeing. We've got to have this conversation with intensity. But we've also got to adopt all of the change agenda that will make a real difference for women.

MATT GALLOWAY: This book came out of conversations. You write that... that in the travels that you had around the world as a leader, you would have these conversations at the sides of meetings, at the sides of conventions, the sides of summits. What was the substance of those conversations? What was it that got you thinking that there was something larger that could come out of those discussions?

JULIA GILLARD: I would go to international meetings like the G20, various security summits, and often I'd be one of very few women in those meetings. Indeed, at one APEC meeting, I was the only woman. But at the meetings where there were a few women, we did take the opportunity to seek each other out in the margins of the meeting. And often, the conversation would turn to various frustrations. You know, the fact that we'd done something really important for our nation. We were announcing it publicly, and all the publicity had been about what we were wearing or the fact that we entered rooms where we felt like we had to acquit a differential burden. That we were entitled to be in those rooms by virtue of our position. We thought that there was a special extra entry test for us because those rooms had not historically been open to women. So I left politics informed by those conversations that this experience wasn't just my own. You know, there were these whirring questions in my head. How much of my experience was Australian politics at that moment in time? How much of it was about decisions the government and I made? How much was simply because I was a woman? That question intrigued me so much that one, it led me to establish the Global Institute for Women's Leadership at King's College London. And two, it led me into a set of conversations with my co-author, Ngozi, who I would see at the meetings that I was going to post-politics. And we got so intrigued, fascinated into this conversation with each other that ultimately we decided to write the book.

MATT GALLOWAY: In the book, you interview eight powerful women who are current and former leaders to learn from their experience. Given those conversations, as you say, that you were having at the margins of those meetings, how eager were they to... to step into this discussion, to... to offer not only their own experience, but a way out of the situations that they were encountering?

JULIA GILLARD: I think women leaders are eager to have this discussion, but they're also very aware of the risks. And so if a woman leader goes out and complains about sexist treatment, and this certainly happened to me in the wake of the misogyny speech, people respond by saying, heavens above, you know, she's prime minister of Australia. She's living one of the most privileged lives on the planet. Like what has she got to complain about? Or people accuse you of playing a gender card, starting a gender war, trying to distract from other issues in your political life. Well, she would say that, wouldn't she? Because something else is not going very well and she's trying to get us to look over here. So I think women in politics, women in public life feel all of that. What gave women special permission to talk in this book is that they knew we weren't just talking to them and they knew we were asking eight women exactly the same questions, so that it wouldn't come off as one individual complaining. Rather, it would be eight women talking about these issues together. And there's both power and protection in being in that kind of collective.

MATT GALLOWAY: I want to ask you more about what comes out in the book, but we're speaking in the midst of... and, I mean, I know Australia is ahead of us here in Canada, but we're still in the midst of this global pandemic. And this is a pandemic we know that has disproportionately affected women. On our program, one of the economists has referred to it as a shecession, not a recession. As we start to think about a recovery, what needs to be done in a meaningful way to address that, shecession, do you think?

JULIA GILLARD: I agree with you that whilst, of course, the disease, COVID-19, disproportionately kills men and we shouldn't forget that. When we look at the ripple effects of this pandemic, the impact is disproportionately on women. So the first ripple effect, women tend to be the greatest percentage of our caring professions who are uniquely at risk. The next ripple effect, women are the ones that have to step up when domestic labour is increased by lockdown's and home schooling. And, as you say, the economic effect has disproportionately played out against women's jobs. I think to recover from all of that, we have to put gender at the centre of the analysis about how we want to rebuild. You will sometimes hear people talk about, look, we just want to make sure that we're back in the days like they were before the pandemic. I frankly think that's naive. I don't think we are going back. I think we're going forward to a new future. And the decision for us is what is it going to look like? Is it a future in which every pre-existing inequality, including gender inequality, is reinforced because we are in economically difficult times after the pandemic? Or do we take this opportunity to say we've been doing a lot wrong in the past, we need to rebuild, let's rebuild in a way that enhances equality, including gender equality.

MATT GALLOWAY: Do you think those strategies and that approach would be different if there were more women leaders around the world?

JULIA GILLARD: Yes, I do, but I'm always really careful about how I answer this question. I am not a believer that men are from Mars, women are from Venus, to use the terminology that was much in vogue many years ago. Men and women's brains aren't different. Neuroscience tells us that. So it's not like there is an inherently female way to lead. But, of course, men and women have been subject to different social conditioning. We react to men and women leaders differently because we've still got some sexist stereotypes whirring in the back of our brains. And that means that women tend to come through for leadership and succeed at it if they can merge together strength and empathy as a leadership style and research does show that more women in politics is correlated with less corruption.

MATT GALLOWAY: Let me ask you about leadership. Your co-autho, Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala, is the new director-general of the WTO, the first woman, the first African to hold that post in the 25-year history of that organization. Take a listen to what that accomplishment means to her.

NGOZI OKONJO-IWEALA: I'm very proud to be the first African. I'm proud to be the first woman. But I always tell people that the important thing is to have the competence to deliver the results. In other words, if you are the first woman and the first African, and you can deliver, that doesn't... that doesn't help. So I'm focusing on delivery. I'm focusing on getting results. And I want to make sure that people remember my continent producing the first leader of the WTO that made a difference.

MATT GALLOWAY: She says that the first won't matter if she doesn't deliver results. And so people talk about a glass ceiling, but they also talk about a glass cliff. When women do gain power, to what extent do they face greater performance expectations and perhaps scrutiny, especially women of colour?

JULIA GILLARD: Well, to give you a real-life example involving Ngozi right now, there was a German-Swiss newspaper that reported the news about her appointment to the WTO under a banner headline which read 66-year-old grandmother appointed to lead the WTO. Not world-leading economist. You know, of course, we're used to men being appointed to things. When Antonio Guterres became the leader of the United Nations, I don't remember any headlines which described him as a grandfather and gave his age as if that was his qualification for the job. But more specifically, on the glass cliff, that terminology might be familiar to everybody. It comes from an analysis that resulted from a newspaper article in the U.K. The Times of London had published a piece saying female CEOs lead to lower share prices. And a wonderful researcher, Michelle Ryan, looked at that and thought, that's not right. And she delved into it. And what she actually found was that low share prices predicted the appointment of a female CEO. So an organization, a business that was going well, who needed a new CEO, would say to themselves, you know, let's get one that looks a fair bit like the one we've got now. That's probably a white man. So we'll get another white man. Job done. It was only when an organization was in trouble that they said, oh, we've got to shake things up here. We've got to do dramatically differently. What can we do that's just never been done before? Ah-ha, we'll get a woman! So women get handed these hard jobs. And given all of the issues in the global economy and the trade rules and regulations right now, it's pretty fair to say that the WTO job is a bit of a glass cliff moment. And, of course, that puts Ngozi and women in comparable positions and differential pressures. If she wins through, then people will say, well, that's good. But if the circumstances are so tough that she or any other woman doesn't win through, then there will be an inkling in people's heads, even if they don't express it, that it was an error to put a woman in the job.

MATT GALLOWAY: That headline, I mean, speaks in some ways to the chapter in the book, "It's All About the Hair", in which you talk about how women are judged by their appearances in ways that... that male leaders would not be judged. You speak with the former British prime minister Theresa May. What did Theresa May tell you about what she had gone through?

JULIA GILLARD: Theresa May is a woman who's very interested in fashion. It's just a hobby, a sideline. She saw this as both a benefit and a burden. She talked to us about a moment when she was in a lift in the House of Commons, and she was standing there with a very young woman she didn't know. And the woman was wearing a very fashionable pair of shoes, so she said to her lovely shoes. And the young woman said, I'm in politics because of your shoes. And what she meant by that is Theresa May first came to mainstream public attention when she gave a very hard-hitting speech at her political parties' conference wearing leopard skin kitten heels. And these very groovy shoes were seemed to encapsulate her call for a different kind of Conservative Party. And the young woman had read that publicity. She'd followed what Teresa was wearing. That had got us so interested in politics. There she was, she was working at the House of Commons. So a wonderful upside. But Theresa May also had to go through moments like when she was prime minister. She was meeting with the woman who leads Scotland. They were talking about whether the United Kingdom was going to stay together as a nation because obviously Scotland has been through and is continuing to go through this major debate as to whether it should seek independence. They were both sitting, they were both wearing skirts. And one of the major newspapers the next day had a headline which invited you to compare their legs and decide which one of them had the better legs. Obviously, something that would never happen to two male leaders who were talking about something important dressed in their suits.

MATT GALLOWAY: The headline was "Never Mind Brexit, Who Won Legsit". Take a listen to what the mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, said in the wake of that headline.

SADIQ KHAN: You know, we've got to recognize that for the last few hundred years now, men have been in positions of... positions of power and influence. And women haven't found it easy to come forward and into the boardroom of businesses to become politicians and become first ministers or prime ministers. And when they do, we should treat them the same as we treat men, which is taking aboard views on important issues like Brexit, not commenting on... on their legs. And I think, you know, you compare and contrast photographs of, for example, Boris Johnson and David Cameron. Nobody comments on the trousers they're wearing on their legs. And similarly, I want to judge Nicola Sturgeon and Theresa May on their politics, their values and their vision rather than their legs.

MATT GALLOWAY: How important is it for men to call that out?

JULIA GILLARD: Critically important? Absolutely critically important. And to be frank, one of the things I think we as women, activist, feminist women like myself haven't done well enough is we haven't been as clear with men that they need to be in this space with us. I think many men have concluded, well, you know, the women are working on that and it's not for me to get in the middle of it. But the research actually shows that if a man calls sexism out, that he will be listened to with even more seriousness than a woman doing it. And it is because if a man calls it out, people don't see him as having some inherent conflict of interest. You know, he's not calling it out because it will be better for him. He's calling it out because he sees that there's a serious problem. And so to all of the men out there, if you get active around this agenda, you will have a real impact.

MATT GALLOWAY: Part of this falls into what you call and describe in the book as sort of a likeability trap, where, again, women leaders are facing expectations about their personality. They should be nice, but not too nice. They should be firm, but not too tough or too ambitious. And you speak with the prime minister of New Zealand, Jacinda Ardern, about how she tries to be her authentic self. But again, that can be difficult. What did you learn about that in speaking with her?

JULIA GILLARD: Jacinda and all of the women we spoke to was intuitively aware that they were on this sort of tightrope between strength and empathy, and they were constantly getting cues from their environment that if they came across as too tough, too commanding, people would go or she's a bit over the top, not very likeable. But if they were too emotional, perhaps cried too readily at difficult events, then people would say, look, you know, she's too much of a softy to have the backbone to lead. And the research definitely bears this out that because we expect men to have certain characteristics and women to have certain characteristics, that if we look at a woman, we have a skepticism in our mind about whether she's going to be strong enough. So she's got to pass that test. But we also expect her to have the female traits that we believe women should have, like empathy, nurturing, putting the team first, not being too ambitious for self. So if she doesn't get this cocktail right, then we will find it in some way offensive because of the sexist whisperings in the back of our brain. Jacinda Ardern was intuitively conscious of all of that, but she also was very aware that she's got a bit more political space than many other women leaders because she is the third woman to lead her nation. There are only two countries on Earth that have had three women leaders. New Zealand is one, Iceland is the other. And so in her nation, the question, can a woman be prime minister? That's already done and dusted. It's answered. Everybody knows the answer is yes. And so it's given her a bit more space to foreground. And the project she's on is to show that you can lead with kindness and empathy as your watchwords.

MATT GALLOWAY: You just used a really interesting phrase in put the team first. There's a quotation in the book from Abby Wambach, who is a great legendary soccer player, and she talks about how you won't always be the goal scorer. And when you're not, you better be rushing towards her. Why did you include that phrase in the book?

JULIA GILLARD: It made a big impact on me. That was from a college commencement address. And she gave a wonderful speech about soccer, of course. But about what soccer had taught her about women's empowerment and women coming together. She uses in that speech another phrase, which I think is absolutely so resonant. She talks about the politics of scarcity and how women, because we've been coming from the outside into male-dominated spaces, currently, we tend to have the smaller slice. So if it's a boardroom, a cabinet, a senior management team, women will be down at the 10, 20, 30 per cent end of the number. And so it's easy for women to get into their heads that if you want to be in that room, your best way in is to replace one of the women who is there. So Abby uses the phrase that the politics of scarcity isn't our fault, but it is our problem. And we've got to try and shed this competitive behaviour where women get pitted against women and actually say, how can we work together, so a fair share of the positions are allocated to women?

MATT GALLOWAY: I want to ask you just a few more things before I let you go. One is as somebody who and part of it is that speech, which still gets a lot of attention. You see it popping up on my daughter's TikTok feed, for example, [laughing] but also, as somebody who has co-written in a book like this that is about offering lessons. When you speak with young women and girls about leadership, and they are concerned about everything that we've talked about. What do you say to them about what they need to be thinking about if they're curious about leadership?

JULIA GILLARD: I am always very careful to talk about these barriers, to tell young women the truth that we're not in a gender equal society. We won't be in a gender equal society by the time they're in their adulthood. There will be barriers they face solely because they're women and to be ready for those barriers. But I'm also very careful to talk about the joys that come with leadership, because if I don't, if we don't, then I think young women might listen and say, wow, if it's going to be as tough as that, why on earth would I do it? And there is an incredible joy, a real privilege that comes with being in a position to put your values into action, to make change for your community, your nation, for the world. If I had a time machine and could be transported back to the decision-making moments that took me into politics, even if I knew everything that was going to play out, I would do it again in a heartbeat because the things I got to do that endure in Australia and have made a difference for my nation's future are well and truly worth it. And Ngozi, if she was here, would say just one of the things, just one of the things she did when she was finance minister for Nigeria was she enacted a program for women subsistence farmers which increase their economic independence and brought two million women out of poverty. Who wouldn't want to do that?

MATT GALLOWAY: The last thing is we were speaking earlier about more women as leaders and how that could have changed, perhaps the calculus around the decisions in this pandemic. Some people would joke that if more women around the world, everything would be better because women are more communal, more efficient. The CBC comedy show "Baroness Von Sketch" imagined what that would be lucky. Take a listen.

WOMAN: Hello, greetings and welcome. Thank you so much for coming today. This is our First World Summit since the revolution where we ascended to power, replacing our male counterparts. It's been a busy few years, yeah.

WOMAN#2: To say the least! What's on the agenda?

WOMAN: Yes, first of all, the economy.

WOMAN#2: Well, actually, everything's great here.

WOMAN#3: Yep, us too.

WOMAN#4 Us, too.

WOMAN: Same here, Jill?

WOMAN#5: Yep. All good here. No problems.

WOMAN: Great, OK. Environment. Is anyone having any environmental problems? Anyone?

ALL: No, no, no, no, none.

WOMAN: And what about conflict, social justice, any war or any hardship, conflict in their continents?

WOMAN#4 No, we just talk it out these days.

WOMAN: Well, I think that's it, ladies. Everything seems to be in order.

WOMAN#5: I can't believe that this summit used to take days.

MATT GALLOWAY: I'm assuming that none of the G20 meetings that you went to sounded like that?

JULIA GILLARD: None of them did sound like that. [chucling] And I love it. Love that sketch. But I think we have to be a bit careful that we don't break the sexism in to how we see a future that women have a more equal role in. You know, there are real tensions, real conflicts in our world that changing the gender of leaders involved will not wish away. And I think, too, if we say to ourselves, well, we want female leadership because women are going to be more empathetic, more kind, more nurturing, we're going to put a real value on that. They need to be strong to, you know, they're amazing. Women will vote for women if they're amazing. The problem with that is if you're only going to vote for women who get that absolutely right, who are amazing, well, ithere's not going to be that many women like that. Meanwhile, you'll be voting for a whole lot of mediocre men. So I do think we've got to say to ourselves, if we're going to value empathy and nurturing social justice, those kind of things in leadership, then we need to demand them of women and men, not just the women. Otherwise, we are kind of baking in a disproportionate hurdle, a disproportionate burden for the women.

MATT GALLOWAY: This is an important book, and a really powerful book. And I really appreciate the opportunity to speak with you. Thank you very much.

JULIA GILLARD: Thank you. I've enjoyed it.

MATT GALLOWAY: Julia Gillard was Australia's prime minister from 2010 through 2013. Her new book with Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala is "Women and Leadership: Real Lives, Real Lessons". That's "The Current" for today. Tomorrow, we continue our special coverage "Covid in Canada, One year And Counting". We'll remember some of the lives lost this past year. Keith Saunders, Maureen Ambersly and Ken Wieland all died from complications of COVID-19. And their family members will remember who they were. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to "The Current". Take care. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

WOMAN: Keith was a giant teddy bear, to be honest. He was one of those guys that you could always go to that would always have a good shoulder to cry on. You know, would have great advice, very positive, always smiling, very hard worker and was just kind of an all-around great guy.

MATT GALLOWAY: What about for you, Ashley? Tell me about your mom.

WOMAN#2: She was like an awesome individual, she was very loving, caring. She was very giving, she always thought about so unfortunate and people who didn't have much. She was that type of person. And she'll give her last, even if that means that she'll have like nothing to ensure that somebody has something to eat, something to wear. Like, she was just amazing. And I'm just so happy that she was able to raise me and my brother like that.

MAN: My father was he was whip-smart. He was generous. He was kind. And he was extremely funny. You know, he was my... my hero in my adult life. I didn't appreciate him as much as I should when I was a teenager. I guess a lot of people are like that. But, you know, I really appreciated him in my adult life. And I... and I really miss him to this day.

[Music: Theme]

March 8, 2021 episode transcript

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