Sign language on a radio show: How CrossTalk made history with its first deaf guest
Are deaf children being shortchanged? CrossTalk hosted a full discussion
It's never been done before on CBC Radio's CrossTalk phone-in: a deaf person in studio as a guest on the show.
That man is Myles Murphy, the executive director of the Newfoundland and Labrador Association of the Deaf.
Host Ramona Dearing recently invited Murphy and Barbara O'Dea, an advocate for deaf education, to take audience calls and comments on whether the education system in Newfoundland and Labrador is shortchanging deaf students.
The discussion raised numerous issues, from children with classmates and sometimes even teachers who can't communicate with them to the prejudices that some deaf people still experience daily.
Here's how it went in our St. John's studio. (A warning: the issue of suicide came up.)
We are offering two ways to review the program.
The video format includes American Sign Language interpretation from Sheila Keats. Click the player above to see the show.
Following is a written transcript of the show.
Ramona Dearing: I'm Ramona Dearing in St. John's and this is the CrossTalk phone-in. Today we are talking about deaf children in this province and asking whether you think they're being shortchanged on their educations. Todd and Kimberly Churchill have been very vocal about their son, Carter. He's in Grade 3, but the Churchills say that his teacher knows only the basics when it comes to American Sign Language. They say the system isn't working for deaf children. What do you think? You can call us at 722-7111 or 1-800-563-8255. You can also send a brief email to crosstalk@cbc.ca.
Ramona Dearing: Are deaf children in Newfoundland and Labrador being shortchanged on their educations? Again, the phone numbers if you would like to call in on this: 722-7111. That's in the St. John's area. Toll free we are at 1-800-563-8255, and as I mentioned brief emails welcomed at crosstalk@cbc.ca. With me in studio right now to take your calls, Barbara O'Dea an education expert who has extensive experience with deaf students and the deaf community. Barbara how are you? Thanks for coming in.
Barbara O'Dea: I'm good. And you're welcome.
Ramona Dearing: You're a hearing person, clearly.
Barbara O'Dea: I am.
Ramona Dearing: Our second guest on the show today is deaf, so we will hear the voice of Myles Murphy through an interpreter. Myles Murphy is the executive director of the Newfoundland and Labrador Association of the Deaf.
Ramona Dearing: Hello to you, Myles Murphy.
Myles Murphy: Hello, Ramona. How are you?
Ramona Dearing: I don't think we've ever had a deaf person on the show before — on a radio phone-in show — so this is very exciting for us.
Myles Murphy: It's pretty cool.
Ramona Dearing: Yeah. Let me say hello to American Sign Language interpreter, Sheila Keats. She will be working very hard during the show. She's already been working very hard during the lead-up to the show. She is interpreting. So yes, you are hearing the voice of Myles Murphy who identifies as male, through the voice of a female, a woman, Sheila Keats. That's how it works.
Myles Murphy: That's a good description.
Ramona Dearing: Myles says — Myles has a very strong sense of humor — so it may be a little bit confusing, but I think people will cotton on very quickly because Sheila is a real professional with her interpretation here. All right, so I would ask that people on the phone-in today, because we are doing simultaneous translation, try to keep their phone comments and their emails brief. We do have a lot going on in the studio here. Please note that we plan to post a video of this show online so that people whose first language is American Sign Language can have access to it at some point later on. We will let you know once that has happened. We also plan to post a transcript of the show with the video for the benefit of people who are deaf or hard of hearing.
Ramona Dearing: All right, with all of that out of the way, let me give out those phone numbers again and we'll refocus on the topic at hand. That is how the education system is working for deaf children. What are your thoughts: 722-7111 or 1-800-563-8255. I'm in studio with Myles Murphy and Barbara O'Dea. All right. Myles, of course I'm going to start with you. How would you answer our CrossTalk question today? Is our education system shortchanging deaf students? There's just a little bit of a pause here, of course as the interpretation is happening.
Myles Murphy: The Association of the Deaf are very concerned with the kids in school today. Since the deaf school closed in 2010, we have approached the Department of Education several times with our concerns. Specifically with what communication is being used for instruction; talking about language deficiency from the ages of one to five. Now we understand that cochlear implants are being used and new technology is being used for the children, but again, the success is very variable for this technology and it depends on the child's needs — and their communication needs are not being met in all cases. We've had meetings with the government departments and we actually decided to use Facebook to try to contact parents of deaf children to be supportive of them, but no families have approached us up to this point, and that's since 2010.
Ramona Dearing: This is the voice of Myles Murphy, who is the executive director of the Newfoundland and Labrador Association of the Deaf, coming through the voice of interpreter Sheila Keats. Let me ask you, Myles Murphy, what specifically — give me a couple of things that specifically are not happening in the education system for deaf children that you would like to see in place?
Myles Murphy: Well, I would like to have the kids be able to self-identify as deaf. I would like for … right now the isolation is extreme. I would like to have them come together as being a group of deaf children and be able to self-identify as deaf children and associate with other deaf children.
Ramona Dearing: You would like to see the School for the Deaf come back into being?
Myles Murphy: I'm not sure it's the answer right now. I think it depends on the numbers of children that would require to have sign language. There are some children who use a cochlear implant and can use it very well. There are some who don't use it very well. My concern are the ones who are profoundly deaf and require sign language and that they have no other option for communication, and for understanding and for instruction.
Ramona Dearing: OK. so—
Myles Murphy: They were — the itinerant teachers right now, their signing is not adequate enough to actually be a model for the deaf children in our province. How would they be able to accommodate them? I think that's the issue that needs to be resolved.
Ramona Dearing: All right. Barbara O'Dea, what's an itinerant teacher?
Barbara O'Dea: An itinerant—
Ramona Dearing: In a nutshell.
Barbara O'Dea: Sorry. An itinerant teacher goes from … works with several or many children individually usually. They go from school to school to school. Or if one school has a group of students, they'll go individually or with a group if that's what is taken. If that's what's needed. In the case of deaf and hard of hearing children, the itinerants around Newfoundland, itinerant teachers generally work with one child, but then another child because they are not brought together in this province at all.
Barbara O'Dea: They work very hard. But I'm not sure what they do, because if you only see a child two hours a week, and you know that that child has minimal understanding of language so far, or that they're in high school and really their very first language is not as good as it should be and they're trying to do English-
Ramona Dearing: That being American Sign Language.
Barbara O'Dea: American Sign Language. That's an issue for the itinerant teachers. They work very hard, but I have to tell you. Going from place to place is difficult, and those who don't know American Sign Language — I want to clarify that some do — but if you graduate from a program, you go into the deaf ed program that exists today for teaching deaf and hard of hearing children. If you enter that program without American Sign Language, you will probably leave the program without American Sign Language because there are no courses at all in that program to learn American Sign Language.
Ramona Dearing: Including at Memorial University?
Barbara O'Dea: Nothing at Memorial. The master's program is at Mount St. Vincent University. That's for deaf and hard of hearing children.
Ramona Dearing: Let me get your thoughts before we go to the phone lines here. Is the education system shortchanging deaf students here? Barbara?
Barbara O'Dea: Of course they are. When you deprive a child of education and you sit them in a classroom with teacher who can't communicate with them and other children who can't communicate with them, we cannot call that education. It's not.
Ramona Dearing: Is that happening to every single deaf student in Newfoundland and Labrador in the public school system?
Barbara O'Dea: I would say to children who communicate through American Sign Language or should....OK, let me backtrack: I've heard there are a couple of students not in the city or around the city who have a one-on-one teacher in this province who is fluent in American Sign Language and apparently works with that child, and then there's probably one other child all day. Now how they work is questionable because here in this city — I don't know about throughout the province, I can't speak to that — but like the little boy Churchill, he has to stay in the classroom with all of this going on for the hearing children while a teacher who isn't fluent in American Sign Language tries to teach him all day. So they don't even let him out to have that kind of even camaraderie with their teacher. No, it's very poor. Very poor.
Ramona Dearing: In fact, his father Todd Churchill is on the line right now, so let me say hello to Todd Churchill, who lives in Portugal Cove-St. Philip's. Thanks for calling in, Todd.
Todd Churchill: Thank you for having me on your show.
Ramona Dearing: I think we all know that your family has very strong concerns about the kind of education that your son is getting. But for someone who may not be familiar, what are the biggest issues for you right now?
Todd Churchill: Well, firstly I guess I want to address something that Mr. Murphy said that no—
Ramona Dearing: Todd, are you able to speak up by any chance? We don't have the best phone line.
Todd Churchill: Oh, I'm sorry. First thing I want to do is address something Mr. Murphy said in his initial comments that no parents had reached out to the Association of the Deaf here in Newfoundland and Labrador. And that's simply not true, because we've tried numerous times, including in September of 2017 when we first went public. But I don't want to make that the focus of my comments. I just wanted to make that correction.
Todd Churchill: In terms of my child, kindergarten, I'll try to illustrate it for your listeners. He was in a classroom for the majority of his time with a mainstream teacher who had no training at all, zero with American Sign Language. Essentially, Carter was in a daycare for kindergarten. He received only an hour and a half to two hours every seven school days with a trained itinerant teacher of the deaf who spoke with him in American Sign Language. So how is my son supposed to increase his proficiency in ASL? He's getting an hour and a half to two hours every seven school days.
Todd Churchill: When you get a report card for your child and the mainstream teacher has written on the report card, "I have difficulty assessing your child," there's clearly a problem. There's not even basic communication with your ... teachers of record for your child, can't even assess your child.
Ramona Dearing: Who would like to respond to that? Myles, go ahead.
Myles Murphy: I'm very sympathetic to the situation that's happening with Carter. I know that people have been lobbying very hard and are very frustrated with the situation and I certainly understand your situation and your frustration with it. We support the deaf education — best deaf education — we can get. And that we want the best education for your children. But the Department of Education...we have tried, but they have not been co-operative. I think that you have set up — the class that you have set up — is very good, and sign language has got to be the priority in a classroom to teach deaf children. It has to be. Teachers of the deaf have a very low signing ability. Student assistants have a very low signing ability. They hire student assistants who are hearing. There are some student assistants who are deaf, and of course they're very advanced in signing of course. That is, they are proficient, that's their first language. But we need more of that exposure in the classroom for the deaf kids.
Myles Murphy: I believe that we need a sign language interpreter actually in for each child, I think is what is going to resolve it. And a teacher of the deaf, or teacher of the deaf who can pass an ASL proficiency test, which is an ASLPI at a medium level or advanced level. That's what the requirement is. The itinerant teachers right now don't even have ASL training before they can go to work as an itinerant teacher with deaf children. So they don't even have the ASLPI (Amerian Sign Language Proficiency Interview).
Ramona Dearing: That is the voice of American Sign Language interpreter Sheila Keats. She is interpreting for one of my guests in studio today. He's Myles Murphy. He's the executive director of the Newfoundland and Labrador Association of the Deaf. He is deaf himself so you are hearing some pauses as the simultaneous interpretation is happening in studio today. On the phone-in, if you're just tuning in, that will explain things for you. Our other guest in studio is Barbara 0'Dea who has had extensive experience with deaf students and the deaf community. We're talking about whether or not our education system here in Newfoundland and Labrador is shortchanging students who are deaf. You're welcome to share your own opinions. The way to get in touch, 722-7111 in the St. Johns area, or toll free at 1-800-563-8255. We also welcome short emails at crosstalk@cbc.ca
Ramona Dearing: Todd, let me ask you: Myles Murphy just proposed to have one ASL or American Sign Language interpreter with every deaf student in the system. My understanding is we've got somewhere around 300 deaf students across Newfoundland and Labrador. Is that the solution, Todd? Or would you suggest something else?
Todd Churchill: I think maybe if the child was more advanced and had more proficiency in ASL, but for my child right now, where he has been very poorly supported in his first three years of schooling, his proficiency in ASL is very poor as you can imagine. So giving my child an interpreter would mean nothing, because he doesn't have the foundation in the language to be able to understand the interpreter. Maybe if he was in Grade 12 or Grade 10 or some advanced grade and he had received proper support and had a proficiency in ASL, an interpreter would be an option. But for us, one of the biggest struggles we have is that he just has not been supported in developing his language.
Ramona Dearing: Which, your family is saying, is such a basic part of his education.
Todd Churchill: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's like saying to a hearing child, "We're not going to give you a teacher that speaks English," and expect the hearing child to learn English. That's exactly the analogy. It's like giving your hearing child a teacher that speaks German and saying, "OK, we're going to get that German to teach you how to speak and learn English." That's exactly the analogy. I don't think any parent of any hearing child would ever be happy with a teacher that didn't have a proficiency in English. That seems to be such an inherent — actually, I tell you it's so inherent, we've spoken to the NLTA and we've asked them—
Ramona Dearing: This is the Teacher's Association.
Todd Churchill: Yes. For a mainstream teacher, is proficiency in English a job requirement? And they told us it's not. The reason it's not is because it's so inherent to the role, it doesn't need to be stated as a requirement. We're trying to make this argument to the district and the department in the context of ASL, because that's how my child speaks. For him, that's the equivalent of English for him. But it's real hard nut to crack to get this across. It doesn't seem to be as intuitive as you'd expect. But that's exactly the analogy. If you had an English-speaking hearing child and give them a teacher that spoke Japanese, it would be equally ridiculous.
Ramona Dearing: This question's probably going to seem ridiculous to you, but I think it's important that we get it out there. I think that some people might just say, "OK, your son is deaf. Why doesn't he just speak English and read English?"
Todd Churchill: Well, how can he learn English if he doesn't have a first language? He needs to have a first language to learn English. English will always be Carter's second language.
Ramona Dearing: That's a really important point that a lot of us don't get, Todd. That American Sign Language is a language.
Todd Churchill: Yes, absolutely. That's one of the frustrations. Really in my heart, I really believe there's people at the district and department that think that ASL is just something deaf people do to get by. They don't acknowledge that it is a world-recognized language. Most countries of the world have a version of ASL. For example, you can have British Sign Language. You can have Australian Sign Language. Here in Canada, we don't have Canadian Sign Language, we follow the American Sign Language. These are official recognized languages and if you go to the UN convention under Rights of Persons with Disabilities, which Canada ratified with most of the international community in 2010, in Article 24 of that convention there are specific provisions for deaf children to receive support in signed language and the deaf peer mentoring and deaf socialization. What we're fighting for is not something that's not recognized. It is internationally recognized, including by Canada. That's why it's so frustrating when you go to meetings and you have to keep repeating the same points over and over.
Todd Churchill: To your point about, why doesn't Carter speak, he's deaf. It's really frustrating when people have misconceptions that, "You're deaf, but you should be able to speak." I don't know why people would think that. You're deaf. So people do speak, like I go to children's' parties with my son and his classmates will ask me, "How come Carter doesn't speak?" I always use that as a teaching moment and say, "Yes, Carter does speak. He just uses a different language than you and me. He uses sign language." I go through some signs with the kids at the birthday party. I'll say, "Here's how you sign 'happy birthday.' And here's how you sign 'chocolate cake.' Here's how you sign 'pizza.'" Carter does speak, he's just not verbal. The crux of the problem, Ramona, is that we have people in the district and department that have no foundation in deaf education who are making decisions for deaf people and deaf children. That's the problem.
Ramona Dearing: Todd, I want to share a couple of comments with you and the rest of the audience that have come in on the Facebook page for CBC Newfoundland and Labrador. Raylene wrote in on that Facebook page, attaching a photo of her adorable little girl, saying that, "My daughter is another child being let down by this government." Another comment that came in from Martha who wrote, "As a mother of a deaf child, I learned the hard way after they closed the School for the Deaf. It took my son extra years to graduate from the regular school. They should never have closed the school in the first place." So she's saying — Martha — that after the School for the Deaf was closed in 2010 that her son had to spend extra years in order to graduate from school.
Todd Churchill: Yeah, absolutely. The mother, Raylene, I'm very familiar with her. Her little girl right now has no teacher because she's been told that it might be mid-October or late October before she has any support from a deaf itinerant teacher. Last year, I believe that little girl received two hours per day where a hearing child received a full six and a half hours of quality instruction. That little girl is expected to learn everything, including her language in two hours. Is there any parent of any hearing child listening to my voice right now who would be happy if your hearing, speaking child only received two hours of instruction? There's no one would be happy with that. But I'm supposed to be happy. Raylene's supposed to be happy. All the other parents of deaf children are supposed to be happy with that amount of support.
Ramona Dearing: Are you saying that Raylene's daughter has absolutely no instruction in American Sign Language? There's nobody with her right now in her classroom or in her school who is communicating with her in American Sign Language?
Todd Churchill: That is correct. Last year when Hailey started her grade last year, it took until the end of September before she finally got supported. For that full month of September, she had zero support. Now it's starting the same thing. It's so frustrating. Because the district has had the entire summer to plan for the upcoming school year. They can't say, "Well, we're dealing with ongoing issues with the schools." All the schools are closed, the teachers are on their summer break, students are on their summer break. The main focus should be on planning for the school year. But yet, students go to school and they don't have the required supports in place. I can't describe it other than it being totally and completely incompetent. If the people at the district are not capable of doing their jobs and the leadership are not capable of leading, they need to be replaced with people who are capable and people who can lead.
Ramona Dearing: Now, I don't want to keep you too long on the phone lines, and perhaps Hailey's mother, Raylene, or anyone else in the family might call in to speak to this, but what does that mean that Hailey — she looks very young, I'm not sure if she might be in kindergarten — what does that mean? She's just sitting in class unable to communicate with others all day long?
Todd Churchill: I'll tell you about my case. Because I know it very well. Carter is in the classroom right now today with no child able to speak to him. We talk about mental health all the time, we emphasize how important mental health is, but nobody considers how detrimental it is to a deaf child's mental health to be in a classroom day after day after day being socially isolated. By not one of your classmates being able to talk to you. Nobody ever considers how detrimental that is to your health. Just imagine in your workplace. You go to CBC and just imagine if you went there every day and not one single person could talk to you because they spoke a different language. They all talk to each other, but they didn't talk to you. Just imagine how you would feel, day after day after day. But that's the normal for deaf children.
Ramona Dearing: I want to thank you—
Todd Churchill: It's so frustrating.
Ramona Dearing: I want to thank you so much for calling in, Todd, and stay with the show once you hang up, because I'm about to read another comment that's come in on the Facebook page that directly relates to what you were just saying. But thank you again so much.
Myles Murphy: That's deaf peoples' lives. A lot of their lives are like that all day long. Yep.
Ramona Dearing: Here is that comment that came in on the Facebook page for CBC Newfoundland and Labrador. It was sent in by Deanna, who is deaf. She went to the School for the Deaf while it was still open, so that was before 2010. This is what Deanna wrote: "I stopped hanging out with hearing teens because they left me out. They mocked me, and made fun of me. The School for the Deaf gave me a solid foundation of strength on how to handle this teen social situation. I decided to hang out with my own peers on weekends and during the summers. We became lifetime friends. We face daily discrimination everywhere. We stay strong, and we fight back." That's only a part of what Deanna sent into us. But that's a very moving description of not just isolation, but it sounds like bullying was happening because she was deaf. Being bullied by hearing students. Myles is going to speak now.
Myles Murphy: Yeah, and that's oppression that we see happen all the time.
Ramona Dearing: Really? Even today, Myles?
Myles Murphy: Still. Still today. Yep.
Ramona Dearing: Wow. That is Myles Murphy, he is speaking through Sheila Keats. She is an American Sign Language interpreter. We're delighted to have her in studio with us today. Along with our other guest in studio, Barbara O'Dea. She's got extensive experience with deaf students and the deaf community. She is a hearing person. Myles Murphy is deaf, and so that's why you're hearing a slight lag on the show today. We've got live interpretation happening on the show. It also explains why Myles, who is a man — you are hearing his words through the voice of a woman, Sheila Keats, the interpreter.
Ramona Dearing: All right. This is something we've never done before on the airwaves and it's very exciting for us. If you would like to call in and share your opinions as to whether or not you think that the education system here in Newfoundland and Labrador is shortchanging deaf students. The numbers to call 722-7111 or 1-800-563-8255. Our next caller here is Nancy Reid, and she's the executive director of the Coalition of Persons with Disabilities here in Newfoundland and Labrador. Hello to you, Nancy.
Nancy Reid: Hi, how's everybody today?
Ramona Dearing: Good. I'll ask you to belt it right out there if you don't mind.
Nancy Reid: Sure.
Ramona Dearing: That's a lot better. Thank you. So what do you think about deaf children and the education system?
Nancy Reid: Well, I really wanted to thank you for having this issue on CrossTalk today. I'm thrilled to be able to just put my comment in there. Basically, I'd just like to echo the comments of everybody, that everybody agrees that every child has the right to public education. We must provide appropriate support to enable that. Where I'm going, I guess, as the ED (executive director) with the Coalition of Persons with Disabilities, is that it's so important for us to recognize the individual in that situation.
Nancy Reid: Myles made a comment about it earlier in that we have to self-identify, we have to be able recognize that there are individuals in every one of these stories. American Sign Language is absolutely important and necessary to so many people and people who identify as being deaf. But I want to, I guess, bring this point to your listening audience: that sometimes American Sign Language, when we consider the individual, is not always the appropriate solution. We certainly, in the number of students that we have in our schools that we're talking of, and I don't have the exact number, but I'm thinking it's in the area of 300.
Nancy Reid: In that group of students, American Sign Language may not be the automatic answer for every one of those students. I think it's really important for us all to realize that there may be other opportunities that are also appropriate.
Ramona Dearing: Such as?
Nancy Reid: Well, I'm thinking about … when we thinking about the deaf and hard of hearing population, there's a very different and distinct difference between a person who identifies as being deaf and a person who identifies as being hard of hearing.
Ramona Dearing: Can you walk us through that, Nancy? Because I think that's an important discussion.
Nancy Reid: Well, I certainly can, but you've got Myles sitting at the table and he's a holder of that information much more appropriately than I am. But in my experience, and in my understanding to be deaf is certainly valid and an experience. That it's very different from hard of hearing in that a hard of hearing person will have some capacity — a limited, no doubt — but a capacity of hearing to some degree. So for instance, as a child in the situation that we're talking about here, a child may be hard of hearing and may not be able to hear without particular assistive technology or something like that. But they would be able to actually hear the spoken word and may communicate in American Sign Language or because of any other reason, may not be able to communicate using American Sign Language.
Ramona Dearing: I guess some of them would communicate in English, as their mother tongue? Or French?
Nancy Reid: Absolutely, or whatever language spoken in the home, if they have the ability to hear. Even if that is some form of hearing or a limited amount of hearing.
Ramona Dearing: Nancy, I'm going to get you to hold just for one second. I think both my guests want to get in. Let me get Myles in first.
Nancy Reid: I want to follow it with one of my examples.
Ramona Dearing: Yes, Myles.
Myles Murphy: Thank you, Nancy, for bringing this up. Each child is an individual. They're each special. Birth to the age of five of course is when a lot of the foundations of language are established. If there is no hearing at that age, that means no language is developed. They become language-deficient. If they have even decreased hearing when born — and there's different modes, there's different ranges of hearing. Some, whether they learn hearing or not can often depend on how much sign language they learn or find value in. But that zero to five bracket is when that can be established. If they have no language from zero to five, that's when you need to get extensive sign language in there and I think that's enough for my comment, and maybe Barbara wants to add to that.
Barbara O'Dea: Thank you. Yes, like Myles brought up when you asked him about a school for the deaf, we have to be very careful about saying who would attend that school. It would be great if all children actually whether they're deaf, hard of hearing, or even hearing, could learn American Sign Language. But we've said that all of our lives about French too. We wished our kids could have another language. Or, I wish I had another language. The issue comes in when language deprivation is the result of not having access to language.
Barbara O'Dea: If you are language-deprived, the harm that happens to those children and the consequences are so damaging that it's hard to realize. They cannot cope socially. How can they even understand the concept — think about it — of loyalty, or wisdom? How do they develop those concepts if they don't have a language? How can they work in proper jobs if they don't have a language? We're talking about children who are fully capable of academic success. Not that I'm saying that that's the be all and end all. But they are capable of academic success; not every single one of them, nor is every single hearing child.
Barbara O'Dea: But bring them as far as you can in the education system. And I say to you that that goes back to when they are identified. I'm using specifically "identified," rather than "diagnosed." Diagnosed is medical and deaf people don't see themselves as sick, needing to be fixed. I'll let Myles speak to that if he wants to. But, if they cannot be given access to language from birth, that is a huge mistake. When you were talking about our children in the system, shortchanged, it just takes a plan! It takes someone who cares, who understands, and a plan. You're not sending hard of hearing to a school environment that they don't need. They need technology.
Barbara O'Dea: And if that technology gives them full, or should I say, access to a full language, well, the technology is enough. Cochlear implants — parents have said they're still being told not to use sign language with their children. Signed languages are processed in the same part of the brain and I promise not to get technical on this, but if one part of the brain figures out the sounds of the language, the same part of the brain figures out that kind of material from a signed language. If a part of the brain figures out word order, syntax, word order, in a spoken language, the same part of the brain does that in a signed language. All the research — ALL the research — says that deaf children who have American Sign Language before the cochlear implant actually have better English skills because the brain hasn't had time to atrophy. It is on the go from day one. It's stimulated. So when they're trying to figure out word order, they've already got it in one language. Now they're learning it in another.
Ramona Dearing: All right, let's get back to the very patient Nancy Reid, who is on the line and she is with the Coalition of Persons with Disabilities. You carry on, Nancy — you wanted to make another point.
Nancy Reid: Sure. Thanks, Ramona, and I'm going to change my point slightly in response to Myles' comment. I really appreciate that, and again we're thinking about the individual. But really what we're looking from Myles' comment — am I correct in assuming that we need to really consider the first five years, or before the school age piece comes in to determine how an individual's really going to identify? Whether or not they identify as a person who is deaf or has the capacity for hearing or is a person who is hearing?
Nancy Reid: Really, that leads us down a path of what the appropriate supports are going forward from there. I guess the point that I wanted to make originally—
Ramona Dearing: Let me just stop there again for a second and ... is that happening now, Myles?
Myles Murphy: No. Mostly it's referred to a doctor. Kids are referred to a doctor and then they're getting cochlear implants. Sometimes the cochlear implants are not working, and then what do you do when you get past that point of figuring that out? The language has already been delayed at that point.
Ramona Dearing: All right, back to you, Nancy.
Nancy Reid: To me, that sounds like we're setting up our children for failure because they're not getting the support that they need preschool, in that time. I don't know how that happens, but it seems to me that's where the foundation needs to get put in place. Then we can follow through. I absolutely fully support American Sign Language when it's the appropriate opportunity for an individual.
Nancy Reid: I guess my original point was going to be very quickly that I'm also the parent of a now young adult who is non-verbal and has always been non-verbal. She doesn't have the capacity for American Sign Language because she's an individual whose fine motor dexterity doesn't allow that because of her disabilities. American Sign Language was never an opportunity for us. Because it wasn't an opportunity for her to be able to navigate, to be able to use her fine motor skills for. Again, it's the individual piece in this equation. Everybody is an individual and it's absolutely appropriate and very much appropriate and needed for some individuals, but we need to be able to do a better job of making sure the people that need it get it and are able to use it in our system.
Ramona Dearing: All right, Nancy, I'm going to thank you very much for your call and I will move on to our next caller. We have Jack, who is on the line from St. John's. Thanks for calling in, Jack. I'll just see if we've got Jack with us on the phone line. While we're getting Jack on the line — is that you, Jack?
Jack: I'm there. I can hear you.
Ramona Dearing: Yeah. So what are your thoughts about whether or not deaf children are being shortchanged by our education system?
Jack: I didn't hear all of the program, but I'm not sure if I was introduced as who I am, and I don't mind introducing myself.
Ramona Dearing: I just called you Jack from St. John's. Should we know more about you?
Jack: That's OK. Yes, I was 27 and a half years the guidance counselor at the Newfoundland School for the Deaf. I think all the people sitting beside you know me.
Barbara O'Dea: For sure, Jack.
Jack: OK.
Myles Murphy: Hello, Jack!
Barbara O'Dea: Hi!
Jack: OK, basically the points I want to make. I'm hearing beeps, is there some reason for that? Hello?
Ramona Dearing: Did you say you're hearing beeps?
Jack: Beeps, yeah.
Ramona Dearing: Not on our end. Or, I'm not ...
Jack: There's people calling into me I think. OK. I guess—
Ramona Dearing: You might be hearing some clicking coming through as a result of our interpretation, that's happening live on the show with Sheila Keats who's interpreting for Myles Murphy.
Jack: No. It's the people calling into me, I think. But let me make a couple of points clear. One, I worked at the School for the Deaf for 27 and a half years. I was involved with any child coming into the school for the deaf from pre-kindergarten, right through to high school. And we had kids coming in from all ages, OK? A school for the deaf is not a school, it's a community. People have to understand that. That when you come into a school for the deaf, you come into the deaf community. You're introduced to deaf language.
Jack: We never taught ASL in school. Barbara O'Dea I think was attempting to develop a sign language course at one point in time but—
Ramona Dearing: Because Barbara, you worked at the School for the Deaf.
Barbara O'Dea: Yes.
Jack: Yes. But we never did develop a sign language course. Children will come in, and I would say to parents when they came in. I said, "Come in, bring your child in, let us have them for two weeks, and you will see a miracle happen." And what they would see was their child would brighten up, and the child would be able to communicate. Only peripherally initially, but in a very short period of time, they were communicating extremely well with their peers.
Ramona Dearing: In American Sign Language?
Jack: That's right. That's how they learn their American Sign Language. It wasn't because we taught courses in it. Because we didn't.
Ramona Dearing: That is a real surprise to hear.
Myles Murphy: Yes. Absolutely. We learned from the other students and I remember that myself. That's how I learned my sign language. I had never had a teacher teach me sign language. Never.
Jack: That's right.
Ramona Dearing: I find that shocking. Should I — is that unusual that I find that shocking?
Jack: OK, I know a lot of people do find it shocking. Another point I want to make is about the teachers of the deaf. A properly trained teacher of the deaf, and I use that very clearly, a properly trained teacher of the deaf will help a deaf child develop language very well. It's not necessary that they have ASL still, OK? That they have language. Knowledge of language and how language is acquired, and how language is used by children.
Jack: For example, we had children who would come into the school for the deaf with no language, and by the time they were at high school level, they were able to challenge the high school curriculum of the province, even the public exams with teachers of the deaf, who I will tell you right now, I won't mention names because they're some of them are still out there in the system, but they know who I'm talking about. They were not proficient in ASL, but they were very proficient in understanding the language skills of the kids. They rewrote curriculum, they made sure the language was put to the students the way they understood it appropriately.
Jack: What we would do even, I could go for hours, but what we would do even, is the teachers would take the public exams, I would copy them, I would give them a half an hour to change the wording to what they saw fit for the students to be able to answer questions. I would then … the kids would write the exam, we'd send the exam back to the Department of Education. If there was any concerns, they would take out the question. Not one question was ever removed. The teachers did it properly.
Ramona Dearing: OK, so Jack, can we move this to the present, what are you suggesting? Should there still be a school for the deaf?
Jack: Oh definitely, there should never have not been a school for the deaf. Understand what I'm saying. There are people, there are young men and women and they know if they were able to get this today, know that their personal lives were saved because of the fact that they were able to go to the School for the Deaf.
Ramona Dearing: Their lives were saved?
Jack: Saved. I know people—
Ramona Dearing: What do you mean?
Jack: I know people who would have committed suicide. In fact, I can think of several who would commit suicide without having the School for the Deaf. Young men and women came in in grades 8 and 9 who were hard of hearing who said, "I'm not accepted in my community. I'm not accepted in the school. Can you take me in the school for the deaf?" We took them into the school for the deaf because we were the only facility available to them. Young men and women-
Myles Murphy: And that's a loss of identity, that's their loss of identity is what you're talking about.
Jack: They never had an identity. They were never accepted. A kid who tells me he got boxed in the ears because he wore hearing aids. He came into the School for the Deaf. One of the best ones, I'll tell you this, this will give you some idea about what the kids experienced. One young lady from … I won't mention the community either, but it was on the south coast of Newfoundland, was going down to a drama festival with the grammar teacher from the School for the Deaf.
Jack: I remember her telling me this story, telling us this story. The young lady was in tears almost and the drama teacher said, "What's up?" She said, "I'm going down to my community," she said, "And I'm going to be on stage and acting." She said, "Most of the people think I'm mentally" — she used the word "mentally retarded". She left her community to come there because of the fact that she was not accepted.
Jack: The School for the Deaf is not just school, it's a community for the deaf and people who try to equate it with a regular school, there's no way of equating it in any way, shape, or form—
Ramona Dearing: But part of the reason that the School for the Deaf was closed was because of the inclusive education model. Students who lived outside the Metro St. John's area had to leave their families to attend the School for the Deaf. That must have been very difficult in many cases. Also regular students — I mean that in the sense of hearing students — had no contact with deaf students, right? So they were pigeon-holed weren't they?
Jack: Ramona—
Ramona Dearing: I'd welcome an answer from one of my guests on the show.
Jack: OK.
Barbara O'Dea: I'd like to say something.
Ramona Dearing: This is Barbara here.
Barbara O'Dea: We had children at the Newfoundland School for the Deaf winning the Newfoundland Drama Festival. We had children at the Newfoundland School for the Deaf who were the president of their student council. We had every classroom in the high school was represented by a student from their class on that student council. I'd like to ask you in the inclusion model, how many deaf students in this province became the president of their student council? I think not. Nobody.
Barbara O'Dea: I will tell you that almost every person, deaf person, has told me very clearly that going to a school for the deaf saved their lives. I'm not saying that schools for the deaf always did a great job. Because there used to be oralism, where at the school for the deaf, teachers were not permitted to sign to the students.
Ramona Dearing: Oralism? What's oralism?
Barbara O'Dea: Oralism. It came in when technology started, way back in the day. People were told if a deaf child works hard enough, if the teachers work hard enough, and if the parents work hard enough, then they would talk. So they could use this technology—
Ramona Dearing: English or French—
Barbara O'Dea: And talk. Whatever language, German.
Myles Murphy: I'd like to share my story on that one.
Ramona Dearing: This is Myles jumping in here—
Barbara O'Dea: They had this sense that deaf children could do that. Actually the children who couldn't do it, instead of looking at them and saying, "What else can they do?", they were literally classified — and Myles would know this — as oral failures. Because they didn't learn to talk, because they couldn't hear. Because a group of people at a convention refused to let deaf people speak and said, "We are changing education" and they changed it throughout Europe and North America.
Ramona Dearing: But right now, in the present-day school system, it is all about inclusion.
Barbara O'Dea: It is.
Ramona Dearing: All those students who in the past for various reasons, whether they had intellectual disabilities, sometimes mobility issues, shunted aside, right? Hidden away from everyone else.
Jack: Ramona?
Barbara O'Dea: I really need to say this. We have to stop thinking about them, deaf children, as anything but a group of children who will use a different language and a group of children who need to communicate with each other and adults of that language, to develop a community and then self-identity. If we don't do that, they're not included. But do we say that English children are not included because French children are not in their classrooms? Are we saying French students aren't? No, we have a French school system. We have an English school system-
Ramona Dearing: OK, let's—
Barbara O'Dea: We should have an ASL school system.
Ramona Dearing: All right. I know that Myles would like to say something.
Jack: I'd like to have another shot at this.
Ramona Dearing: Yeah, Myles hasn't had a chance to talk for quite a while there, Jack, so I'm going to give the floor over to him through the voice of our interpreter, Sheila Keats.
Myles Murphy: When I was born, I was born deaf. My parents were hearing and didn't know how to communicate with me. So until the age of six, I had no language. I went away to Montreal at the age of six to go to the school for the deaf there and it was an oral school as Barbara says. We learned to sign through the students. Outside of class, that's where I learned my sign language. It was totally oral in the classroom. When I graduated, I went to Gallaudet University in Washington, D.C., in the States. It was a huge impact on me for all the teachers to be signing. All of them, I couldn't believe it. And there I go, there's my language. Here's where I fit.
Ramona Dearing: OK, Jack, back to you.
Jack: OK. There's so many things about a school for the deaf that people can't get their heads around because it's very difficult to get their heads around. And that is the fact, for example, when you talk about parents sending your child and sending them away from their homes. All I can say to you is that the vast majority of our parents in the end felt that they made the best decision they ever made in their lives for their children. I'm going to tell you a little story now—
Ramona Dearing: It has to be very short.
Jack: It's very brief.
Ramona Dearing: Thanks, Jack.
Jack: Anyway, two young ladies came home. One was from the south coast and one was from out in the west coast of Newfoundland, came visiting the School for the Deaf. They came home, and it was the day the school was closing for the summer. I got mad at both of them, I said, "Why didn't you tell us you were coming home?" They said, "Well, we've just come to visit." I said, "Will you do me a favour? Will you get up and speak? Will you speak to our student body?" Because role models, deaf role models are so important to them, right?
Jack: The first one got up and she spoke, she's from the south coast, and she said, "When I was a little girl," she said, "my mom and dad dropped me off at the School for the Deaf." She said, "I cried and I cried and I cried." She said, "Then I stopped crying." She said, "I started to learn." She said, "When I arrived home for Christmas I knocked on the door. Daddy opened the door, and I went, 'Hi, my name is Cathy.'" She finger spelled it and signed it.
Jack: She said that was the beginning of my language. OK? You could hear a pin drop in the room. Then the other young woman said, "Obviously, I could tell you the same story. But let me tell you what I did." She said, "I am a language co-ordinator in Colorado," I think it is. She said, "I chair a committee that introduced ASL as an official language of Colorado." She said, "When I go back to Colorado, I will chair the committee that will implement that policy." Those are two little girls from Newfoundland that [emotional pause] … just incredible. We created miracles because those kids had so much potential and had the right to exercise their potential and they only did it through the schools that were there. I leave it at that. I'm not going to ...
Ramona Dearing: I'm so appreciative of the fact that you called in today, Jack. Thank you very much. All right, I'm going to scoot right along to our next caller here. We have Trevor McCarthy who is calling in from St. John's. Hi, Trevor.
Trevor McCarthy: Hi Ramona, how are you?
Ramona Dearing: I'm good. What do you think, are deaf students here being shortchanged by the education system?
Trevor McCarthy: Absolutely. Not a doubt in my mind. It's heartbreaking to hear Todd Churchill and Kim Churchill talk about their child, Carter.
Ramona Dearing: Carter.
Trevor McCarthy: The situation he's in, my heart bleeds for him. I know for myself, I'm an advocate for my sister, Robin. A lot of people have a lot of great memories of the School for the Deaf. For my sister, unfortunately, she was robbed of an education at the School for the Deaf. There was a lot of abuse happened there. She left the School for the Deaf at the age of 19 because she was basically too old to stay there. She was pushed to home with no education. She has nowadays — at 39 years old, she has a Grade 2 English and a Grade 5 math.
Trevor McCarthy: Because of a lot of fighting and advocating with the government, we've actually got approved to have an interpreter work with her one-on-one into an ABE school at Stella's Circle—
Ramona Dearing: This is adult basic education.
Trevor McCarthy: Absolutely. It's sad that at the age of 40 or 39, she's actually getting a shot at an education.
Ramona Dearing: Now Trevor, I definitely don't want you to name names here, and I don't want to get into a lot of details, but you say that your sister faced an abusive situation.
Trevor McCarthy: Absolutely.
Ramona Dearing: What was happening?
Trevor McCarthy: Well, not to get into any personal details, Ramona, but from the age of seven to till the age of 19 when I pulled her out of the School for the Deaf, the residents, she was being abused by fellow students, bullied, and her time there was a total nightmare. I don't think by segregating deaf children into one school for the deaf it's the right answer as well. I mean, they need to be integrated in the public mainstream, but they have to have English and ASL. Because you can't have one without the other.
Trevor McCarthy: The government keeps saying there's no money there. Well, if you know, stop wasting money on everyone else and sending it overseas. Put the money here in our own children's education. It's heartbreaking. The deaf children don't have a voice. They don't have anyone. They don't have anything to go or fight for them. They're being pushed aside.
Ramona Dearing: That's really powerful what you're saying. I wonder who—
Trevor McCarthy: It's very emotional, Ramona.
Ramona Dearing: I'm sure.
Trevor McCarthy: I mean, I'm trying to keep it all together here. But you can probably hear it in my voice. I mean, this young woman is 39 years old and has lived hell. And to have to fight for an opportunity to learn an education in your own language. Just hearing Todd Churchill, his son doesn't have that, so we need to get something organized by the deaf community to raise a voice and be able to advocate and sign petitions and we need changes. Because mental health is a big epidemic. Suicide is a big epidemic. You take this young Churchill fellow. You mean to tell me growing up in that kind of an environment, he's not going to have social anxieties? That he's not going to have other issues, they're not going to arise because he was treated this way and put in this kind of environment? What if he needs to speak out? What if he needs mental help? What if he needs to talk to someone? Nobody understands his language.
Ramona Dearing: He's a beautiful little boy, right? I should make that very clear.
Trevor McCarthy: Absolutely. Adorable. And it's a sin that he's getting robbed of an education. It's sickening.
Ramona Dearing: Trevor, I want to thank you so much for calling in. There's a lot more to be discussed on this issue.
Trevor McCarthy: Absolutely.
Ramona Dearing: But thank you very much. Really appreciate it.
Trevor McCarthy: You're very welcome. Thanks for giving me the opportunity.
Ramona Dearing: I need to make clear now as we approach the end of the program, clearly we have touched on a very important topic to a lot of people. We will be posting video of this phone-in once it is edited. I cannot speak to the time lines on that, but we'll certainly make it known to our audience members once that video is available. That will be a resource for people who use American Sign Language. Also we will post a transcript as well. I'll be sure to let everyone know when those resources are available. It's been fantastic to have the voices of deaf people on our show today — some of the people who wrote in on the Facebook page for CBC Newfoundland and Labrador. Also, my deep thanks to Myles Murphy, the executive director of the Newfoundland and Labrador Association of the Deaf. Sheila Keats interpreter, thank you so much, Sheila. Thank you, Barbara O'Dea, who is an advocate for deaf education. As I say, so much more to discuss another day. Thank you everyone.
Barbara O'Dea: Thanks, Ramona.
Myles Murphy: I would love to discuss more.
Ramona Dearing: Thank you, Myles.
Suicide prevention resources: Where to get help
Canada Suicide Prevention Service: 1-833-456-4566 (phone) | 45645 (text) | crisisservicescanada.ca (chat).
In Quebec (French): Association québécoise de prévention du suicide: 1-866-APPELLE (1-866-277-3553).
Kids Help Phone: 1-800-668-6868 (phone), www.kidshelpphone.ca (live chat counselling).
Canadian Association for Suicide Prevention: Find a 24-hour crisis centre.
If you're worried someone you know may be at risk of suicide, you should talk to them about it, the Canadian Association for Suicide Prevention says. Here are some warning signs:
- Suicidal thoughts.
- Substance abuse.
- Purposelessness.
- Anxiety.
- Feeling trapped.
- Hopelessness and helplessness.
- Withdrawal.
- Anger.
- Recklessness.
- Mood changes.
Get highlights from CBC CrossTalk
CrossTalk broadcasts every weekday at 12 noon NT. You can play programs on demand via the show's page on CBC Listen, or subscribe for the podcast by clicking one of the buttons below: